The F-16 Offer to India — India Might Refuse It, But Pakistan Can’t Ignore It

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

lockheed is working on its f 35 project and expecting atleast 3000 unit orders from USA and the world. no one will buy f16 when a more better platform is available. lockheed just want to earn some money before leaving f16s in history books. they want india to induct this aircraft.

 

[GuardianRED]

I like the article , kind of simplify's the Tendering process and shows that this process is MORE than just procuring the aircraft. Like the Author says "As my grandma told me, the devil’s in the details."

Honestly the F-16 is getting towards the end of its design life + with the strings attached as we have seen with the PAF , its the worst deal ever brought forward to the IAF

Im sure all the hoopa that LM and our great Defence Journos talk abt (anyone seen Livefist, he is opening confirming that there will be a second production line of aircraft from the US ie F16 or F18) and NOTHING will Happen

Thanks @PARIKRAMA for the Tag!

 

[anant_s]

It is not the F-16, it is what the Lockheed offer represents

Sir,
We have discussed this in past (& while i'm not qualified to comment from Pakistan's point of view), technically India's view of LM offer isn't very positive irrespective of what our media prints.
LM is said to have sweetened the offer with F35 offers at a later date and honestly, what i make out of it is that US is trying to sell out a technology (Assembly line more specifically) that serves very little purpose for it either Militarily or economically for it.
The offer has a huge symbolism attached to it as no such offer has been offered to a Non NATO state ever and given our great grandiose plans of military modernization, someone sure hopes, that this offer finds takers. My guess is it will only remain wishful thinking.

 

[VCheng]

Sir,
We have discussed this in past (& while i'm not qualified to comment from Pakistan's point of view), technically India's view of LM offer isn't very positive irrespective of what our media prints.
LM is said to have sweetened the offer with F35 offers at a later date and honestly, what i make out of it is that US is trying to sell out a technology (Assembly line more specifically) that serves very little purpose for it either Militarily or economically for it.
The offer has a huge symbolism attached to it as no such offer has been offered to a Non NATO state ever and given our great grandiose plans of military modernization, someone sure hopes, that this offer finds takers. My guess is it will only remain wishful thinking.

There is an offer on the table. Of course both sides will try to get the most out of it while offering the other side the least possible. That is just how international geopolitics work, as always. May be a deal will be reached. May be not. Until the next offer.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Yo if India accepts are we gonna look at another platform?

 

[Ali Zadi]

The million dollar question is
........................................15SE

I am thinking a mix of the two, kits first then full on MII initiative. This does not excuse the fact that by the time India makes F16's under MII US will be making mass producing F35's. Going for F16 in its current form even on block XYZ is worthless without any anti access stealth modifications.

The F-15SE is awesome because of what they incorporated into it and I am sure something similar can be done with the F16 due to miniaturization and Israel specific F16 Tech. F-15SE is said to be less stealthy than the F35 or the F22 but then again PAK-FA is said to be less stealthy than F22/F35 and that means there is a possibility that PAK-FA and F-15SE to share a similar RCS which in case of a imaginary F-16SE might also be possible!!

If India does go in for the F16 line access to advanced F16 specific research has to be shared like DSI/XL Project among other things. Just imagine how much money can India save with unrestricted access to F16 related projects not everything can be achieved with computer simulations and experiments done even in the 70-80s would be gold for Indian specially with a lower price tag.

Yo if India accepts are we gonna look at another platform?

Chinese 100% even if India does nothing, Pak is pretty much into Chinese h/w

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Yo if India accepts are we gonna look at another platform?

Wont that be too late bcz we as a country take too long time.. Dont you think Pakistan needs to be proactive and see through this whole gameplan ..

Despite of Chinese J-XX or Su35 or say EF, or TFX program, what choices are there which gives geo strategic advantage.

To me getting a Su35 and courting Russia serves the best interest with China- Pakistan- Russia nexus. But then will Russia give Su35 after having a close to $8Bn new earnings for Su30 MKI upgrade to Super standard.. Like you folks know F16 inside out, India knows flankers also inside out.. Even the upgrade product line makes the two products almost comparable and if some tech from PAKFA program flows into the upgrade again its an advantage to Indian side.

This is why this whole article and as i said earlier, even if any of our country leaves the others side its too late, too costly and what options do each side have really.. China Pakistan is same as India USSR relation and now look where we stand.. Today USA is with us, yesterday it was with you.. Tomorrow they may be with Sri Lanka or Bangladesh.. its their interests really..

But as a country what did we ever learn?

 

[The BrOkEn HeArT]

Good read indeed. I don't know what is the problem to operate some units of F-16 block 70 for India??? Block 70 is a new version and technically better than older version which Pakistan operate. I don't know if it is better than Su-30mki . @PARIKRAMA can you plz shade some light on how F-16 block 70 is better or not than Su-30mki??

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Good read indeed. I don't know what is the problem to operate some units of F-16 block 70 for India??? Block 70 is a new version and technically better than older version which Pakistan operate. I don't know if it is better than Su-30mki . @PARIKRAMA can you plz shade some light on how F-16 block 70 is better or not than Su-30mki??

If USA enables us this and i am quoting @Ali Zadi

If India does go in for the F16 line access to advanced F16 specific research has to be shared like DSI/XL Project among other things. Just imagine how much money can India save with unrestricted access to F16 related projects not everything can be achieved with computer simulations and experiments done even in the 70-80s would be gold for Indian specially with a lower price tag.

then its not an issue but Its more of assembling and very less actual TOT we wish from this deal. Heck the assembling wont even have metallurgy part which will remain in USA.
Look here, i explained it here

https://defence.pk/threads/lockheed...rted-to-the-world.443136/page-21#post-8593976

 

[Hassan Guy]

Wont that be too late bcz we as a country take too long time.. Dont you think Pakistan needs to be proactive and see through this whole gameplan ..

Despite of Chinese J-XX or Su35 or say EF, or TFX program, what choices are there which gives geo strategic advantage.

To me getting a Su35 and courting Russia serves the best interest with China- Pakistan- Russia nexus. But then will Russia give Su35 after having a close to $8Bn new earnings for Su30 MKI upgrade to Super standard.. Like you folks know F16 inside out, India knows flankers also inside out.. Even the upgrade product line makes the two products almost comparable and if some tech from PAKFA program flows into the upgrade again its an advantage to Indian side.

This is why this whole article and as i said earlier, even if any of our country leaves the others side its too late, too costly and what options do each side have really.. China Pakistan is same as India USSR relation and now look where we stand.. Today USA is with us, yesterday it was with you.. Tomorrow they may be with Sri Lanka or Bangladesh.. its their interests really..

But as a country what did we ever learn?

As India continues to grow, It will soon see itself in a similar position to which China is in today.
When that happens F-35's will be coming Pakistan's way.

 

[danger007]

An American bragging and chest thumping as usual. Tell me something new. This is like me shamelessly praising myself at my own birthday party. The Americans are experts of such shameless self-bragging.

We couldn't care less if the Indians were offered the F-22. The Americans have already transgressed all limits by offering nothing less than nuclear technology to the Indians. The naive author somehow thinks that Pakistan is worried about F-16s going to India or the mighty American gesture itself. Well, he and she are in for a rude awakening because the writing has always been on the wall. They milked us and we milked them. End of story.

It is sour grapes for these silly Yanks because they know that Pakistan has aligned itself with China for its defense requirements. The CPEC also proves that China Pakistan partnership far exceeds mutual interests.

What CPEC supposed to do with the thread .. .. unbelievable..

 

[VCheng]

If USA enables us this and i am quoting @Ali Zadi



then its not an issue but Its more of assembling and very less actual TOT we wish from this deal. Heck the assembling wont even have metallurgy part which will remain in USA.
Look here, i explained it here
View attachment 330383
https://defence.pk/threads/lockheed...rted-to-the-world.443136/page-21#post-8593976

Let us look at your basic contention the other way around: What can India offer that will make USA offer all the technology that you refer to?

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

Wont that be too late bcz we as a country take too long time.. Dont you think Pakistan needs to be proactive and see through this whole gameplan ..

Despite of Chinese J-XX or Su35 or say EF, or TFX program, what choices are there which gives geo strategic advantage.

To me getting a Su35 and courting Russia serves the best interest with China- Pakistan- Russia nexus. But then will Russia give Su35 after having a close to $8Bn new earnings for Su30 MKI upgrade to Super standard.. Like you folks know F16 inside out, India knows flankers also inside out.. Even the upgrade product line makes the two products almost comparable and if some tech from PAKFA program flows into the upgrade again its an advantage to Indian side.

This is why this whole article and as i said earlier, even if any of our country leaves the others side its too late, too costly and what options do each side have really.. China Pakistan is same as India USSR relation and now look where we stand.. Today USA is with us, yesterday it was with you.. Tomorrow they may be with Sri Lanka or Bangladesh.. its their interests really..

But as a country what did we ever learn?

JXX series is good on papers but it had never been tested in real war scenarios.
Su 35 is a good plane but pakistan can't go towards a new platform. it already had too many types of planes in service even though some may be retired in near future. turkish program will take a lot of time.
alliances are changing but why is US so good with US nowadays because the last time it was so good to someone in the region was pakistan and we too gave them logistic supports and allowed the to use our airfield and the result was Soviet union threatening pakistan peshawer to be bombed with nuclear weapons. with current scenario and alliances, i see india fighting US war. its not just business and market. its something more than that.
the current situation is quite interesting. russia is almost losing its main weapons market. it will definitelt find someone else. like iran who was a us weapons market but when us stopped giving them weapons russia started doing it. the arabs were once using russians tech against israel now are using US made weapons. rusiia will alliance with china and pakistan to fill in the gaps.

 

[Drebin]

Greetings everyone. . . I just want to commend everyone for keeping this thread troll free with some extremely interesting discussions and POVs. It has been a joy and an insightful as well as knowledgeable conversation. Please keep it up as it has been an educational read for me and everyone curious like me. It's quite rare for both Pakistanis and Indians to come to gather and contribute positively. Its indeed a sight to behold. Two thumbs up to all you guys .

Peace.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Let us look at your basic contention the other way around: What can India offer that will make USA offer all the technology that you refer to?

• A vibrant market with growing middle class which can afford wide range of white goods and services
• An industry which still does not have best of the practices and technology.
• Defense sector opportunities for the dwindling war machine based MIC versus a country which wants rapid industrialisation to support its whole modernisation needs ...
• Energy sector where India has humongous needs and USA has the technology.. example the reactors...
• Climate change and renewable energy cooperation as India is an important pivot for the global climate change norms to succeed.. For clean energy and for India to move away from fossil fuels it needs access to low cost solar power and Nuclear power plants..
• Emerging market opportunities like Infrastructure, Education etc thereby giving substantial more investment opportunities to sustain and increase the pace of development. In turn it gives them substantial returns in a much lesser risk environment due to stability of the country, economy and poltics.
• Geo Political leverage with active strategic and economic relations that India shares with many countries.
• Political stability and following same democracy - fundamentals which are difficult to find in this new age world order.
• A endorsement and support for geopolitical and global order which USA thinks and needs endorsement from India to have legitimacy over USA's actions.

Its some of the thoughts which came immediately in my mind in no particular order as such..