Lockheed Martin offers F-16 Block 70, for India, from India, exported to the world

[somebozo]

Getting quite desperate to sell the dying production line of F16..its wrong to call it production or joint production..it will only be assembly..

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

Getting quite desperate to sell the dying production line of F16..its wrong to call it production or joint production..it will only be assembly..

More like Americans building power plant, radar, other avionics in USA , India importing them and then assembling them on a fuselage made from imported materials in India.

How I wish our MoD simply had said F O to SAAB and LM with Gripen and F16...

 

[911]

From moving the complete production line in India to Co production.....

Either we are dumb or we are still more dumb.

Its was never a complete production. I doubt Indian will be manufacturing parts like engine etc indigenously. Rather its simple assembling of the plane, maybe with some extra small parts being manufactured in India added to what India already manufactures.

 

[kaykay]

F-16 is a brilliant aircraft and to me its the best single engine multi-role aircraft. LM is a huge company and their ability to bring in a credible industrial capability cant be questioned. But a small question comes up in my mind, 20 years after we buy an F-16, how relevant will it be at that time? For people who point at the current scenario of 1970s aircraft being used, isn't it the same thing we should prevent from happening again? Just because we messed up once, should we do it again?

Now lets assume, India launches a modest MII project of 90 jets with a production output of 18 jets/year. (Again since its an "assumption" I am using most modest figures) First aircraft rolls out in 2020, last jet rolls out in 2025.

( http://www.f-16.net/fleet-reports_article18.html )

Please refer current F-16 production list, based on which final F-16 ordered by Iraqi AF will roll out in 2017. It is highly unlikely that LM is awarded any further F-16 orders from current users due to introduction of F-35 and European alternatives attracting the Middle-Easterns. The Indian F-16s, if ordered will reach their MLU stage during the period 2040-45 by when more than 90% of the current frames will be retired/phased-out. Considering that the best upgrade path for MLU cant be any better than block-70 by 2030, there is a total of 145 F-16 that will reach MLU stage past 2030 among current users. Which means, there will be no single country with a large fleet of F-16 that requires MLU update other than India. Therefore, we could be held hostage by LM for a descent MLU upgrade program for our F-16s to remain relevant past 2040s, paying out a huge premium for little gain. 30 years into service, by 2050 considering the fast pace at which aviation is evolving compared to the 70s, we could be forced to retire the fleet without even consuming 75% of its designed life.

For all the F-16 MII advocates, do you want our country to repeat the past and induct older designs that may not be relevant till the end of their designed life (It could be more hurtful as against the mistake we did in 70s due to the fast pace at which technology is evolving now)? Should we be short sighted and disregard the future aspect before we induct a platform like we have always done?

P.S I will in no way belittle the F-16 as a potent aircraft or LM as an efficient MIC, its just that we are atleast 20 years late in considering this aircraft as per my honest opinion. And for people who question about Tejas using the same logic, one word - "Indigenous". We can afford to do mistakes with Tejas as this is the only way we can develop an in-house design eco-system.

Opinions and criticism requested.
@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @Nilgiri @Joe Shearer @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil and all other respected readers.

Good Day to all!

You raised some valid concerns but anyway let me play devil's advocate here. While its true that F-16 is a design of 70s but so are Su-27s and Mig-29s...We should keep in mind that our adversaries will still use 4th gen fighters like Jf-17, J-10s and J-11s in 2050s so F-16s can compete with them anytime given we'll have most advance F-16s if chosen with modern era avionics and weapon package. I for one don't see any problem with F-16's design itself once it has modern avionics and stuff... certainly not inferior to future j-10s and Jf-17. Also not to forget that It will cost us very less compared to more advanced fighters like Rafale.
PS: I'll personally love to see 200 Rafales in Indian colours but then I'll think about massive cost and rather chose hi-lo mix( Few squadron of Rafales+ F-18SH/Gripen/F-16block70.)

 

[Arsalan]

Lockheed Martin have actually realized that how any plan what IAF uses is THE BEST PLANE in the world so in order to make there junk that they gave to PAF as well they have decided to give some to IAF so it is transformed into transformer serise plane. First it was Su-35, then Eurofighter, then it was Rafale with Rafale and Su30 changing positions (despite being different role planes) for some 4 5 years while babu's made there decisions an then it was Rafale for sure and now it is already beginning to look that it is F16. An excellent move by Lockheed Martin to transform there plan into a true 6th gen aircraft.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

F-16 is a brilliant aircraft and to me its the best single engine multi-role aircraft. LM is a huge company and their ability to bring in a credible industrial capability cant be questioned. But a small question comes up in my mind, 20 years after we buy an F-16, how relevant will it be at that time? For people who point at the current scenario of 1970s aircraft being used, isn't it the same thing we should prevent from happening again? Just because we messed up once, should we do it again?

Now lets assume, India launches a modest MII project of 90 jets with a production output of 18 jets/year. (Again since its an "assumption" I am using most modest figures) First aircraft rolls out in 2020, last jet rolls out in 2025.

( http://www.f-16.net/fleet-reports_article18.html )

Please refer current F-16 production list, based on which final F-16 ordered by Iraqi AF will roll out in 2017. It is highly unlikely that LM is awarded any further F-16 orders from current users due to introduction of F-35 and European alternatives attracting the Middle-Easterns. The Indian F-16s, if ordered will reach their MLU stage during the period 2040-45 by when more than 90% of the current frames will be retired/phased-out. Considering that the best upgrade path for MLU cant be any better than block-70 by 2030, there is a total of 145 F-16 that will reach MLU stage past 2030 among current users. Which means, there will be no single country with a large fleet of F-16 that requires MLU update other than India. Therefore, we could be held hostage by LM for a descent MLU upgrade program for our F-16s to remain relevant past 2040s, paying out a huge premium for little gain. 30 years into service, by 2050 considering the fast pace at which aviation is evolving compared to the 70s, we could be forced to retire the fleet without even consuming 75% of its designed life.

For all the F-16 MII advocates, do you want our country to repeat the past and induct older designs that may not be relevant till the end of their designed life (It could be more hurtful as against the mistake we did in 70s due to the fast pace at which technology is evolving now)? Should we be short sighted and disregard the future aspect before we induct a platform like we have always done?

P.S I will in no way belittle the F-16 as a potent aircraft or LM as an efficient MIC, its just that we are atleast 20 years late in considering this aircraft as per my honest opinion. And for people who question about Tejas using the same logic, one word - "Indigenous". We can afford to do mistakes with Tejas as this is the only way we can develop an in-house design eco-system.

Opinions and criticism requested.
@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @Nilgiri @Joe Shearer @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil and all other respected readers.

Good Day to all!

Nice post Mate.. Really good bcz what you pointed out here is exactly what is the real truth behind the whole story of carrots being dangled to Indian side.

Assuming the 90 F16s being ordered of Block 70/72, the biggest challenge and potential dampener of what not covered by you is that the movement of Manufacturing line to India is partial only..

Let me explain here

Take a look at this picture

This is a pretty common picture of what General Arrangement is for a typical F16. Now when someone looks at it closely, the realisation of multiple parts which are put together is clearly known.

Now LM has always planned this so well.. Look at here.. and i wish to share this with everybody

The above figure is the production layout of Fort Worth division for making Block 50 F16s
Source of this image : http://www.bmpcoe.org/library/books/ex-se/17m43.html

Now consider the picture after zooming it
Initially required things are

• Raw Materials
• Purchased Parts
• Subsystems
• outside production based parts
• Engines
• Perishable products parts etc..

The whole line has Raw Material stage to First Cut of raw material processing to fabrication of components which are taken ahead for assembling.

Now In India basically its Kit based assembling.

Thus the first part of the Forth Worth is omitted and that is critical. Reason cited will be lack of metallurgical advancements and Senate approval needed to share such technology and IPRs.

We dont get the knowledge or MIC capability to have Raw material based metallurgical knowledge and capability on this. we did get the same in MKI and we have always proposed the same in Rafale MII (under MMRCA as well). Its clear that most things wont be there for us as we will be dependent on purchased parts and sub systems and outside production part.

It is technically impossible for USA MIC to shift everything related to F16 production line to Indi as its cost intensive and time intensive with a humongous investment and employment of local folks on such a supply chain dependent production line.

So basically we will get something from Tooling step onwards..

Now is that worth it? To me its not.. Bcz in reality Forth Worth line is never fully shifted nor the dependent MIC ever.

Thus @R!CK : The MLU itself will be mostly of India only as all other MLU also even if we do it in Indian Assembling Unit, the parts will be still coming from Fort Worth and other USA MIC production units which were part of the original manufacturing line.
heck even Indian MLU will still be dependent on it. We might get Kits for all such MLU even for other countries Jet but then its a big airconditioned assembly line with nut and screw job and perhaps new operational process plus automation. The basic knowledge which is most important for local MIC upgrade will remain out of reach.. Like always.

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @waz @SpArK @Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @Oscar

 

[R!CK]

Nice post Mate.. Really good bcz what you pointed out here is exactly what is the real truth behind the whole story of carrots being dangled to Indian side.

Assuming the 90 F16s being ordered of Block 70/72, the biggest challenge and potential dampener of what not covered by you is that the movement of Manufacturing line to India is partial only..

Let me explain here

Take a look at this picture

This is a pretty common picture of what General Arrangement is for a typical F16. Now when someone looks at it closely, the realisation of multiple parts which are put together is clearly known.

Now LM has always planned this so well.. Look at here.. and i wish to share this with everybody
View attachment 327446

The above figure is the production layout of Fort Worth division for making Block 50 F16s
Source of this image : http://www.bmpcoe.org/library/books/ex-se/17m43.html

Now consider the picture after zooming it
Initially required things are

• Raw Materials
• Purchased Parts
• Subsystems
• outside production based parts
• Engines
• Perishable products parts etc..

The whole line has Raw Material stage to First Cut of raw material processing to fabrication of components which are taken ahead for assembling.

Now In India basically its Kit based assembling.

Thus the first part of the Forth Worth is omitted and that is critical. Reason cited will be lack of metallurgical advancements and Senate approval needed to share such technology and IPRs.

We dont get the knowledge or MIC capability to have Raw material based metallurgical knowledge and capability on this. we did get the same in MKI and we have always proposed the same in Rafale MII (under MMRCA as well). Its clear that most things wont be there for us as we will be dependent on purchased parts and sub systems and outside production part.

It is technically impossible for USA MIC to shift everything related to F16 production line to Indi as its cost intensive and time intensive with a humongous investment and employment of local folks on such a supply chain dependent production line.

So basically we will get something from Tooling step onwards..

Now is that worth it? To me its not.. Bcz in reality Forth Worth line is never fully shifted nor the dependent MIC ever.

Thus @R!CK : The MLU itself will be mostly of India only as all other MLU also even if we do it in Indian Assembling Unit, the parts will be still coming from Fort Worth and other USA MIC production units which were part of the original manufacturing line.
heck even Indian MLU will still be dependent on it. We might get Kits for all such MLU even for other countries Jet but then its a big airconditioned assembly line with nut and screw job and perhaps new operational process plus automation. The basic knowledge which is most important for local MIC upgrade will remain out of reach.. Like always.

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @waz @SpArK @Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @Oscar

Exactly! And it will be the Mig story all over again!! Such short sighted vision and memory of our dear countrymen that we forget the past and repeat the mistakes all over again and again! Year 2050, we'd be still negotiating for Assemly Line for some foreign aircraft if we don't change the path now.

Good Day!

 

[waz]

Nice post Mate.. Really good bcz what you pointed out here is exactly what is the real truth behind the whole story of carrots being dangled to Indian side.

Assuming the 90 F16s being ordered of Block 70/72, the biggest challenge and potential dampener of what not covered by you is that the movement of Manufacturing line to India is partial only..

Let me explain here

Take a look at this picture

This is a pretty common picture of what General Arrangement is for a typical F16. Now when someone looks at it closely, the realisation of multiple parts which are put together is clearly known.

Now LM has always planned this so well.. Look at here.. and i wish to share this with everybody
View attachment 327446

The above figure is the production layout of Fort Worth division for making Block 50 F16s
Source of this image : http://www.bmpcoe.org/library/books/ex-se/17m43.html

Now consider the picture after zooming it
Initially required things are

• Raw Materials
• Purchased Parts
• Subsystems
• outside production based parts
• Engines
• Perishable products parts etc..

The whole line has Raw Material stage to First Cut of raw material processing to fabrication of components which are taken ahead for assembling.

Now In India basically its Kit based assembling.

Thus the first part of the Forth Worth is omitted and that is critical. Reason cited will be lack of metallurgical advancements and Senate approval needed to share such technology and IPRs.

We dont get the knowledge or MIC capability to have Raw material based metallurgical knowledge and capability on this. we did get the same in MKI and we have always proposed the same in Rafale MII (under MMRCA as well). Its clear that most things wont be there for us as we will be dependent on purchased parts and sub systems and outside production part.

It is technically impossible for USA MIC to shift everything related to F16 production line to Indi as its cost intensive and time intensive with a humongous investment and employment of local folks on such a supply chain dependent production line.

So basically we will get something from Tooling step onwards..

Now is that worth it? To me its not.. Bcz in reality Forth Worth line is never fully shifted nor the dependent MIC ever.

Thus @R!CK : The MLU itself will be mostly of India only as all other MLU also even if we do it in Indian Assembling Unit, the parts will be still coming from Fort Worth and other USA MIC production units which were part of the original manufacturing line.
heck even Indian MLU will still be dependent on it. We might get Kits for all such MLU even for other countries Jet but then its a big airconditioned assembly line with nut and screw job and perhaps new operational process plus automation. The basic knowledge which is most important for local MIC upgrade will remain out of reach.. Like always.

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @waz @SpArK @Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @Oscar

That is an impressive post, with an excellent breakdown.

 

[X-2.]

Nice post Mate.. Really good bcz what you pointed out here is exactly what is the real truth behind the whole story of carrots being dangled to Indian side.

Assuming the 90 F16s being ordered of Block 70/72, the biggest challenge and potential dampener of what not covered by you is that the movement of Manufacturing line to India is partial only..

Let me explain here

Take a look at this picture

This is a pretty common picture of what General Arrangement is for a typical F16. Now when someone looks at it closely, the realisation of multiple parts which are put together is clearly known.

Now LM has always planned this so well.. Look at here.. and i wish to share this with everybody
View attachment 327446

The above figure is the production layout of Fort Worth division for making Block 50 F16s
Source of this image : http://www.bmpcoe.org/library/books/ex-se/17m43.html

Now consider the picture after zooming it
Initially required things are

• Raw Materials
• Purchased Parts
• Subsystems
• outside production based parts
• Engines
• Perishable products parts etc..

The whole line has Raw Material stage to First Cut of raw material processing to fabrication of components which are taken ahead for assembling.

Now In India basically its Kit based assembling.

Thus the first part of the Forth Worth is omitted and that is critical. Reason cited will be lack of metallurgical advancements and Senate approval needed to share such technology and IPRs.

We dont get the knowledge or MIC capability to have Raw material based metallurgical knowledge and capability on this. we did get the same in MKI and we have always proposed the same in Rafale MII (under MMRCA as well). Its clear that most things wont be there for us as we will be dependent on purchased parts and sub systems and outside production part.

It is technically impossible for USA MIC to shift everything related to F16 production line to Indi as its cost intensive and time intensive with a humongous investment and employment of local folks on such a supply chain dependent production line.

So basically we will get something from Tooling step onwards..

Now is that worth it? To me its not.. Bcz in reality Forth Worth line is never fully shifted nor the dependent MIC ever.

Thus @R!CK : The MLU itself will be mostly of India only as all other MLU also even if we do it in Indian Assembling Unit, the parts will be still coming from Fort Worth and other USA MIC production units which were part of the original manufacturing line.
heck even Indian MLU will still be dependent on it. We might get Kits for all such MLU even for other countries Jet but then its a big airconditioned assembly line with nut and screw job and perhaps new operational process plus automation. The basic knowledge which is most important for local MIC upgrade will remain out of reach.. Like always.

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @waz @SpArK @Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @Oscar

Thnx Perfect post and enhanced but I will still rember u as bad guy @PARIKRAMA u gave me 2 negative ratings that I didn't deserved lol

 

[mkb95]

Lockheed Martin have actually realized that how any plan what IAF uses is THE BEST PLANE in the world so in order to make there junk that they gave to PAF as well they have decided to give some to IAF so it is transformed into transformer serise plane. First it was Su-35, then Eurofighter, then it was Rafale with Rafale and Su30 changing positions (despite being different role planes) for some 4 5 years while babu's made there decisions an then it was Rafale for sure and now it is already beginning to look that it is F16. An excellent move by Lockheed Martin to transform there plan into a true 6th gen aircraft.

Nice post Mate.. Really good bcz what you pointed out here is exactly what is the real truth behind the whole story of carrots being dangled to Indian side.

Assuming the 90 F16s being ordered of Block 70/72, the biggest challenge and potential dampener of what not covered by you is that the movement of Manufacturing line to India is partial only..

Let me explain here

Take a look at this picture

This is a pretty common picture of what General Arrangement is for a typical F16. Now when someone looks at it closely, the realisation of multiple parts which are put together is clearly known.

Now LM has always planned this so well.. Look at here.. and i wish to share this with everybody
View attachment 327446

The above figure is the production layout of Fort Worth division for making Block 50 F16s
Source of this image : http://www.bmpcoe.org/library/books/ex-se/17m43.html

Now consider the picture after zooming it
Initially required things are

• Raw Materials
• Purchased Parts
• Subsystems
• outside production based parts
• Engines
• Perishable products parts etc..

The whole line has Raw Material stage to First Cut of raw material processing to fabrication of components which are taken ahead for assembling.

Now In India basically its Kit based assembling.

Thus the first part of the Forth Worth is omitted and that is critical. Reason cited will be lack of metallurgical advancements and Senate approval needed to share such technology and IPRs.

We dont get the knowledge or MIC capability to have Raw material based metallurgical knowledge and capability on this. we did get the same in MKI and we have always proposed the same in Rafale MII (under MMRCA as well). Its clear that most things wont be there for us as we will be dependent on purchased parts and sub systems and outside production part.

It is technically impossible for USA MIC to shift everything related to F16 production line to Indi as its cost intensive and time intensive with a humongous investment and employment of local folks on such a supply chain dependent production line.

So basically we will get something from Tooling step onwards..

Now is that worth it? To me its not.. Bcz in reality Forth Worth line is never fully shifted nor the dependent MIC ever.

Thus @R!CK : The MLU itself will be mostly of India only as all other MLU also even if we do it in Indian Assembling Unit, the parts will be still coming from Fort Worth and other USA MIC production units which were part of the original manufacturing line.
heck even Indian MLU will still be dependent on it. We might get Kits for all such MLU even for other countries Jet but then its a big airconditioned assembly line with nut and screw job and perhaps new operational process plus automation. The basic knowledge which is most important for local MIC upgrade will remain out of reach.. Like always.

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @waz @SpArK @Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @Oscar

notice anything different between two tta?

 

[anant_s]

Nice post Mate.. Really good bcz what you pointed out here is exactly what is the real truth behind the whole story of carrots being dangled to Indian side.

Assuming the 90 F16s being ordered of Block 70/72, the biggest challenge and potential dampener of what not covered by you is that the movement of Manufacturing line to India is partial only..

Let me explain here

Take a look at this picture

This is a pretty common picture of what General Arrangement is for a typical F16. Now when someone looks at it closely, the realisation of multiple parts which are put together is clearly known.

Now LM has always planned this so well.. Look at here.. and i wish to share this with everybody
View attachment 327446

The above figure is the production layout of Fort Worth division for making Block 50 F16s
Source of this image : http://www.bmpcoe.org/library/books/ex-se/17m43.html

Now consider the picture after zooming it
Initially required things are

• Raw Materials
• Purchased Parts
• Subsystems
• outside production based parts
• Engines
• Perishable products parts etc..

The whole line has Raw Material stage to First Cut of raw material processing to fabrication of components which are taken ahead for assembling.

Now In India basically its Kit based assembling.

Thus the first part of the Forth Worth is omitted and that is critical. Reason cited will be lack of metallurgical advancements and Senate approval needed to share such technology and IPRs.

We dont get the knowledge or MIC capability to have Raw material based metallurgical knowledge and capability on this. we did get the same in MKI and we have always proposed the same in Rafale MII (under MMRCA as well). Its clear that most things wont be there for us as we will be dependent on purchased parts and sub systems and outside production part.

It is technically impossible for USA MIC to shift everything related to F16 production line to Indi as its cost intensive and time intensive with a humongous investment and employment of local folks on such a supply chain dependent production line.

So basically we will get something from Tooling step onwards..

Now is that worth it? To me its not.. Bcz in reality Forth Worth line is never fully shifted nor the dependent MIC ever.

Thus @R!CK : The MLU itself will be mostly of India only as all other MLU also even if we do it in Indian Assembling Unit, the parts will be still coming from Fort Worth and other USA MIC production units which were part of the original manufacturing line.
heck even Indian MLU will still be dependent on it. We might get Kits for all such MLU even for other countries Jet but then its a big airconditioned assembly line with nut and screw job and perhaps new operational process plus automation. The basic knowledge which is most important for local MIC upgrade will remain out of reach.. Like always.

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @waz @SpArK @Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @Oscar

Unless the ToT includes allowing a country to manufacture a product from scratch, i don't think its worth the trouble.
In context of LM, Boeing and SAAB pitching for their products under MII, i think Indian Government must seriously consider the facts as to what tangible benefits the deal is going to bring.
If it is only the assembly of a few components, it will cease to be useful after a few 100 pieces of hardware are made (even by most optimistic guess, this deal will not produce more than 150 aircrafts). Then what?
we'll be left with a highly customized assembly line and workers, who will have to switch somewhere else.
I think it is better that we purchase off the shelf hardware in limited numbers or if a prudent solution is required, increase number of Rafale fighters and allow them to be manufactured in India. Atleast this way we will have a factory going till 2030.

 

[[Bregs]]

Nice post Mate.. Really good bcz what you pointed out here is exactly what is the real truth behind the whole story of carrots being dangled to Indian side.

Assuming the 90 F16s being ordered of Block 70/72, the biggest challenge and potential dampener of what not covered by you is that the movement of Manufacturing line to India is partial only..

Let me explain here

Take a look at this picture

This is a pretty common picture of what General Arrangement is for a typical F16. Now when someone looks at it closely, the realisation of multiple parts which are put together is clearly known.

Now LM has always planned this so well.. Look at here.. and i wish to share this with everybody
View attachment 327446

The above figure is the production layout of Fort Worth division for making Block 50 F16s
Source of this image : http://www.bmpcoe.org/library/books/ex-se/17m43.html

Now consider the picture after zooming it
Initially required things are

• Raw Materials
• Purchased Parts
• Subsystems
• outside production based parts
• Engines
• Perishable products parts etc..

The whole line has Raw Material stage to First Cut of raw material processing to fabrication of components which are taken ahead for assembling.

Now In India basically its Kit based assembling.

Thus the first part of the Forth Worth is omitted and that is critical. Reason cited will be lack of metallurgical advancements and Senate approval needed to share such technology and IPRs.

We dont get the knowledge or MIC capability to have Raw material based metallurgical knowledge and capability on this. we did get the same in MKI and we have always proposed the same in Rafale MII (under MMRCA as well). Its clear that most things wont be there for us as we will be dependent on purchased parts and sub systems and outside production part.

It is technically impossible for USA MIC to shift everything related to F16 production line to Indi as its cost intensive and time intensive with a humongous investment and employment of local folks on such a supply chain dependent production line.

So basically we will get something from Tooling step onwards..

Now is that worth it? To me its not.. Bcz in reality Forth Worth line is never fully shifted nor the dependent MIC ever.

Thus @R!CK : The MLU itself will be mostly of India only as all other MLU also even if we do it in Indian Assembling Unit, the parts will be still coming from Fort Worth and other USA MIC production units which were part of the original manufacturing line.
heck even Indian MLU will still be dependent on it. We might get Kits for all such MLU even for other countries Jet but then its a big airconditioned assembly line with nut and screw job and perhaps new operational process plus automation. The basic knowledge which is most important for local MIC upgrade will remain out of reach.. Like always.

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @waz @SpArK @Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @Oscar

For me this deal of MII of f 16 looks absurd and retarded from day one, here you proved it logically. a fighter rejected in 2009 is being offered again with some cosmetics do not makes any sense

Rafale and super sukhois plus own Tejas is the only way out. Rafale has not become costly overnight it is costly frm the time it was chosen as winner of mmrca tender. so now India do not has any choice except to finalize 36 Nos deal soon and start making progress n MII

 

[waz]

Nice post Mate.. Really good bcz what you pointed out here is exactly what is the real truth behind the whole story of carrots being dangled to Indian side.

Assuming the 90 F16s being ordered of Block 70/72, the biggest challenge and potential dampener of what not covered by you is that the movement of Manufacturing line to India is partial only..

Let me explain here

Take a look at this picture

This is a pretty common picture of what General Arrangement is for a typical F16. Now when someone looks at it closely, the realisation of multiple parts which are put together is clearly known.

Now LM has always planned this so well.. Look at here.. and i wish to share this with everybody
View attachment 327446

The above figure is the production layout of Fort Worth division for making Block 50 F16s
Source of this image : http://www.bmpcoe.org/library/books/ex-se/17m43.html

Now consider the picture after zooming it
Initially required things are

• Raw Materials
• Purchased Parts
• Subsystems
• outside production based parts
• Engines
• Perishable products parts etc..

The whole line has Raw Material stage to First Cut of raw material processing to fabrication of components which are taken ahead for assembling.

Now In India basically its Kit based assembling.

Thus the first part of the Forth Worth is omitted and that is critical. Reason cited will be lack of metallurgical advancements and Senate approval needed to share such technology and IPRs.

We dont get the knowledge or MIC capability to have Raw material based metallurgical knowledge and capability on this. we did get the same in MKI and we have always proposed the same in Rafale MII (under MMRCA as well). Its clear that most things wont be there for us as we will be dependent on purchased parts and sub systems and outside production part.

It is technically impossible for USA MIC to shift everything related to F16 production line to Indi as its cost intensive and time intensive with a humongous investment and employment of local folks on such a supply chain dependent production line.

So basically we will get something from Tooling step onwards..

Now is that worth it? To me its not.. Bcz in reality Forth Worth line is never fully shifted nor the dependent MIC ever.

Thus @R!CK : The MLU itself will be mostly of India only as all other MLU also even if we do it in Indian Assembling Unit, the parts will be still coming from Fort Worth and other USA MIC production units which were part of the original manufacturing line.
heck even Indian MLU will still be dependent on it. We might get Kits for all such MLU even for other countries Jet but then its a big airconditioned assembly line with nut and screw job and perhaps new operational process plus automation. The basic knowledge which is most important for local MIC upgrade will remain out of reach.. Like always.

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @waz @SpArK @Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @Oscar

What of Saab or Boeing? Are those worth pursuing?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

What of Saab or Boeing? Are those worth pursuing?

Saab offer is better than F16 atm in terms of industrial benefits but due to its continuous effort to position its Gripen E as LCA Mk2 and constant talk of becoming a consultant for LCA Mk1A projects has rubbed MOD in a wrong manner.

The biggest challenge is Gripen E will have IOC by 2021 and FOC by 2023 if all goes as per plan. Thats way too much for India as IAF wont accept a foreign aircraft before FOC. We even did not budge for LCA Tejas on this so Gripen E wont get any exceptions at all.

Here in July 8th, i covered the package details

https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-270#post-8447719

Notice the main points

• Saab has offerred to bring entire aerospace ecosystem to India for a period of 100 years
• Its offering to set up Industrial Network with Indian pvt sector
• It also wants to setup Aeronautic training academy

Saab has described the following steps

• When the contract is signed , same day a dedicated Gripen line for India will be setup in Sweden
• Indian Industry participation and Skill training will happen in Sweden in this line.
• Once the infrastructure in India is up and running then the whole line and skilled manpower will be shifted
• Estimated timeline for the whole process - Minimum 4.5 Years - Maximum 7 years

• Saab will then start with Kit based assembly in Indian line
• By providing knowledge and building capability from the bottom of the supply chain, the kits would be slowly replaced by local production from raw materials.

DM MP commented after seeing all this

• India wont wait for 5-7 years for Indian production line
• Any fighter made in Indian production line must start rolling by 4th year
• in case of exceptional delay and issues agreed by MOD then max by 5th year

• Other than Skill there is no technology upgradation in industrial R&D or transfer of cutting edge tech to India
• The ecosystem and skilled manpower is already getting created by LCA and ADA has already cleared the plan to convert Indian ecosystem by making HAL and other agencies to be lead integrator.
• Pvt sector will be sub assemblers and assemblers.

Boeing F18 Initially wanted a 100% Boeing India unit to build the jets from kits and later from raw material stage with nothing under GOI control. This route enables all senate approvals without any hassles as nothing is shared at all and everything is under USA control only. This was rejected by DM MP

This was in Feb 17,2016
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-142#post-8163398

Boeing climbed down from 100% subsidiary now to 74% stake and 26% with Tata (TASL) with some work for TASL but there was a major catch. Boeing knows clearly that it cannot get Senate approval for any TOT and thus wishes a G2G route with offset execution by TASL..

Here

Thats in June 26, 2016

https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-263#post-8416070


+++
Thus in terms of deals none of the offers so far are lucrative enough. TBH, the last from LM mentions about F35 as well. But critically when DM MP questions them on real technology transfer and if India wants access codes for radars, avionics, Jammers, Stealth aspect, Engines and other associated products, none of the trio - LM, Saab and Boeing - has been able to talk on this and reply properly.

It is beyond doubt that all of them are taking India for a ride with nothing much to do except screw driver based kit assembling for LM, nothing to share by Boeing/G2G offsets and Saab a paper plane without certification as of today or in next 1 year when this decision will be taken.

Thats the only reason Rafale has been in pole position all along as what India wanted is getting but you have to pay a price and also expand this acquisition number in order to reduce the such capital cost over the fleet size.

Moreover Indian Navy will be a customer of the MII line in India. So Single engine naval bird is already under process for IN (LCA -N) so no Gripen or F16 Block 72 (Naval version) and Boeing F18 wont get the cut as its unable to get a MII in the first place. So logical choice again rests with Rafale M.

 

[waz]

Saab offer is better than F16 atm in terms of industrial benefits but due to its continuous effort to position its Gripen E as LCA Mk2 and constant talk of becoming a consultant for LCA Mk1A projects has rubbed MOD in a wrong manner.

The biggest challenge is Gripen E will have IOC by 2021 and FOC by 2023 if all goes as per plan. Thats way too much for India as IAF wont accept a foreign aircraft before FOC. We even did not budge for LCA Tejas on this so Gripen E wont get any exceptions at all.

Here in July 8th, i covered the package details

View attachment 327449

https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-270#post-8447719

Notice the main points











Boeing F18 Initially wanted a 100% Boeing India unit to build the jets from kits and later from raw material stage with nothing under GOI control. This route enables all senate approvals without any hassles as nothing is shared at all and everything is under USA control only. This was rejected by DM MP

View attachment 327456
This was in Feb 17,2016
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-142#post-8163398

Boeing climbed down from 100% subsidiary now to 74% stake and 26% with Tata (TASL) with some work for TASL but there was a major catch. Boeing knows clearly that it cannot get Senate approval for any TOT and thus wishes a G2G route with offset execution by TASL..

Here
View attachment 327458
Thats in June 26, 2016

https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-263#post-8416070


+++
Thus in terms of deals none of the offers so far are lucrative enough. TBH, the last from LM mentions about F35 as well. But critically when DM MP questions them on real technology transfer and if India wants access codes for radars, avionics, Jammers, Stealth aspect, Engines and other associated products, none of the trio - LM, Saab and Boeing - has been able to talk on this and reply properly.

It is beyond doubt that all of them are taking India for a ride with nothing much to do except screw driver based kit assembling for LM, nothing to share by Boeing/G2G offsets and Saab a paper plane without certification as of today or in next 1 year when this decision will be taken.

Thats the only reason Rafale has been in pole position all along as what India wanted is getting but you have to pay a price and also expand this acquisition number in order to reduce the such capital cost over the fleet size.

Moreover Indian Navy will be a customer of the MII line in India. So Single engine naval bird is already under process for IN (LCA -N) so no Gripen or F16 Block 72 (Naval version) and Boeing F18 wont get the cut as its unable to get a MII in the first place. So logical choice again rests with Rafale M.

Thanks for that. It;s a convincing case for the Rafale then. India played well.