The F-16 Offer to India — India Might Refuse It, But Pakistan Can’t Ignore It

[Cyberian]

India is simply too poor to buy American fighter aircrafts. That was the case 50-years-ago, 30-years-ago and also today.

 

[Spectre]

There is no bait here for India, and none for Pakistan either. Please let me explain briefly.

I am on record here clearly stating that India's international rise will continue, but at a price. It will get NSG and UNSC memberships too. The price will be in opening up its markets and adapting international systems. Whether India is capable of doing that still remains to be seen. (I was thoroughly condemned for saying that India will rise and shine, but that is another story. )

This F-16 offer is a step along the same path. If India can adapt its business practices to those of the West, immense geopolitical and economic benefits will follow. But can India do that?

Regarding Pakistan, this change in the regional geopolitical scenario was a long time coming. The recent signing of LEMOA was a good step forward for India, but it was Pakistan that created the groundwork for it by its own "hard work". Going forward, I have no doubt that Pakistan has grasped the magnitude of the change, but whether it will come up will a viable alternative remains to be seen.

I am quite content to sit back and watch.

All said and done there is one problem.

COLOR OF THE SKIN.

No white majority nation would ever consider a brown/black country as it's equal partner. Least of all anglicized countries. We forever would remain means to an end. I hope India never forgets that

TBH I would have liked China/India/Pakistan as power block but that is not a natural grouping due to resource constraints and competitiveness b/w India and China. As they say there can be only one "man of the house".

 

[VCheng]

All said and done there is one problem.

COLOR OF THE SKIN.

No white majority nation would ever consider a brown/black country as it's equal partner. Least of all anglicized countries. We forever would remain means to an end. I hope India never forgets that

TBH I would have liked China/India/Pakistan as power block but that is not a natural grouping due to resource constraints and competitiveness b/w India and China. As they say there can be only one "man of the house".

Luckily, international geopolitics is color blind.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

There is no bait here for India, and none for Pakistan either. Please let me explain briefly.

I am on record here clearly stating that India's international rise will continue, but at a price. It will get NSG and UNSC memberships too. The price will be in opening up its markets and adapting international systems. Whether India is capable of doing that still remains to be seen. (I was thoroughly condemned for saying that India will rise and shine, but that is another story. )

This F-16 offer is a step along the same path. If India can adapt its business practices to those of the West, immense geopolitical and economic benefits will follow. But can India do that?

Regarding Pakistan, this change in the regional geopolitical scenario was a long time coming. The recent signing of LEMOA was a good step forward for India, but it was Pakistan that created the groundwork for it by its own "hard work". Going forward, I have no doubt that Pakistan has grasped the magnitude of the change, but whether it will come up will a viable alternative remains to be seen.

I am quite content to sit back and watch.

Excellent reply sir.. Indeed what you are pointing correct but its very difficult to change the mindset. In India to endorse it we must turn ourselves into a capitalist market for which we as a country will not agree. Of course its a different trhead topic so will not indulge you on that here.

I pointed in another thread how the major portions including the metallurgy of the line remains in the USA only and our assembling will be nuts and bolts screw driver technology in a new plant.

Its true geo political interest are aligned and both wants to take advantage of each other but its still a bit difficult to get the access to the technology part. Bcz unlike the USA MIC its under Senate control and they dont intend to share that ever. We wont be another Japan, Israel, UK or even South Korea who all got benefit of close USA relationship with them militarily and economically. The government will always find it extremely difficult to justify F16 purchases under any condition even if we say its for NSG and UNSC purposes.

Hi Pari,

No wonder its very refreshing and inoormatve at sametime to read your posts. The content you post is just as wonderful as youre ( though I haven't met you personally, but would love) on second note. why didn't ya tag. I am your greatest fan of writing

Now getting back to original post. The reason My IAF chose MMRCA has been very well explained in brief. Its no wonder why they went for it an for a good reason until the french tried to act smart. I am all up with India on this one. India can pay upfront in cash, hence it has every right to make the best use of its funds. It is true that What Lockheed will offer in terms of TOT will be nothing more than as assembly line which will be monitored and controlled from white HOUSE. India will not be able to enjoy as much as freedom as it does on MKI or for Rafael if it comes, as we all are very well aware of how painful end user agreement of US are. Who would know it more better than us Pakistanis.

The best option for IAF in medium category is continue to develop Tejas into formidable fighter and go for super sukhor upgrade. With amount CAPEX lying around, it can be used for more R&D and to purchase sub-components for TEJAS


Only this stime both of us are on wrong side of table as we should have been otherwise.

If Pakistan for that matter had taken a serious note of that. We wouldn't be begging for f solaa rather we would be making some efforts for jf-17. But then again or geopolitical mentality is very regional


You wrote that earlier in another thread. I am very keen to learn what you actually mean by that. Though I wouldn't disagree with you, if I get it correctly. But, still I would insist on going about in more detail

Extremely sorry for not tagging you.. will surely remember in future..

The fact remains Tejas inspite of all the hype is an unwanted baby if we are really serious of F16 or any other single engined fighter inspite of whatever we claim or showcase benefits. thats for sure.

I wont name anyone but you know for sure PAF loves F16s and even now if you offer them new or refurnished 16s they will take it.. had it not been China enabling newer blocks in JF17, there would have been a lobby to kill JF17 as well in favour of F16s...

Again like India at one time only dependent on USSR, Pakistan will be dependent on China for far too long. Its also a case study for both sides to understand the other sides pain when they were with only one power only for far too long and how any change in position causes immense pain and also resisted by brass..

All said and done there is one problem.

COLOR OF THE SKIN.

No white majority nation would ever consider a brown/black country as it's equal partner. Least of all anglicized countries. We forever would remain means to an end. I hope India never forgets that

TBH I would have liked China/India/Pakistan as power block but that is not a natural grouping due to resource constraints and competitiveness b/w India and China. As they say there can be only one "man of the house".

A very solid point. Own US citizens of colored skins don have a good standing then expecting us Indians to be treated equal or even in the same league is indeed foolishness.. Its pure blood smell for the Military MIC.. for that they will feed us, fatten us and then slowly suck out every ounce of blood as long as we meet their requirements and align with their interests..


edited: for spellings

 

[Spectre]

Luckily, international geopolitics is color blind.

Is it really though? Think about it.

Tell me which country was nuked? Germany - No. Japan - Yes.

Who were the worst casualties of cold war? Afghans, Koreans, Chinese and Vietnamese.

 

[anant_s]

Point is who wants F16.
India?
Pakistan??

The answer is probably no one!

 

[salarsikander]

All said and done there is one problem.

COLOR OF THE SKIN.

No white majority nation would ever consider a brown/black country as it's equal partner. Least of all anglicized countries. We forever would remain means to an end. I hope India never forgets that

TBH I would have liked China/India/Pakistan as power block but that is not a natural grouping due to resource constraints and competitiveness b/w India and China. As they say there can be only one "man of the house".

Excellent analysis. Right on spot

 

[Spectre]

A very solid point. Own US citizens of colored skins don have a good standing then expecting us Indians to be treated equal or even in the same league is indeed foolishness.. Its pure blood smell for the Military MIC.. for that they will feed us, fatten us and then slowly suck out every once of blood as long as we meet their requirements and align with their interests..

To be fair, it's not only US - applies to everyone. Though UK, US and Australia would always stick together.

Logically there is no reason for an alliance b/w UK, US and Australia due to geography. Australia would be better served by Chinese. UK by Europe and US with the North and South American countries

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Point is who wants F16.
India?
Pakistan??

The answer is probably no one!

i knw i know


@dadeechi

and dont get surprised if he turns out correct as well..

 

[VCheng]

Point is who wants F16.
India?
Pakistan??

The answer is probably no one!

It is not the F-16, it is what the Lockheed offer represents.

Excellent reply sir.. Indeed what you are pointing correct but its very difficult to change the mindset. In India to endorse it we must turn ourselves into a capitalist market for which we as a country will not agree. Of course its a different trhead topic so will not indulge you on that here.

That is of course India's sovereign right to chart its own path.

To remain on topic, making any or no use of Lockheed's offer is just one of many such decisions that India will face in the coming years, and whether the changes needed to make the most of them are in keeping with its long term goals or not.

 

[A_Poster]

Only this stime both of us are on wrong side of table as we should have been otherwise.

If Pakistan for that matter had taken a serious note of that. We wouldn't be begging for f solaa rather we would be making some efforts for jf-17. But then again or geopolitical mentality is very regional

SalarSikander, That is because ,irrespective of all the hype that Pakistanis are creating, JF-17 is an inferior third generation design. It is an evolved version of Mig21. Chinese J-7 evolved from USSR Mig-21, and JF-17 has evolved from Chinese J-7. Its airframe design is stable third gen thus it does not need 3-D FBW, but would also be slow to respond to pilot's command.

In comparison to that F-16 is an unstable 4th gen airframe design . Your Airforce know this hence they want F-16 badly. It is the most cost effective 4+ Gen plane.

If you want better planes than F-16, you would have to get a completely new design like J-10 or J-31 or TFX.

 

[Ali Zadi]

Thx for the tag PAR

Now to the thread imagine a new F16 akin to something like a F-15SE. The F16 can be customized as much as India wants and this was already evident with CFTs. In any case look at the F-15SE and the modifications made on that is also possible on the F16 in general.

Don't think air-frame modification would be done as much as say for the lessons derived from the XL version but maybe VISTA. There have been experiments with the F16 for ages and this means if India gets access to those research material it would advance a lot in aerospace tech.

 

[salarsikander]

SalarSikander, That is because ,irrespective of all the hype that Pakistanis are creating, JF-17 is an inferior third generation design. It is an evolved version of Mig21. Chinese J-7 evolved from USSR Mig-21, and JF-17 has evolved from Chinese J-7. Its airframe design is stable third gen thus it does not need 3-D FBW, but would also be slow to respond to pilot's command.

In comparison to that F-16 is an unstable 4th gen airframe design . Your Airforce know this hence they want F-16 badly. It is the most cost effective 4+ Gen plane.

If you want better planes than F-16, you would have to get a completely new design like J-10 or J-31 or TFX.

Still a commendable effort, even for a joint venture though. And the best part is it follows the breed of very superior machine of its time mig 21

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Thx for the tag PAR

Now to the thread imagine a new F16 akin to something like a F-15SE. The F16 can be customized as much as India wants and this was already evident with CFTs. In any case look at the F-15SE and the modifications made on that is also possible on the F16 in general.

Don't think air-frame modification would be done as much as say for the lessons derived from the XL version but maybe VISTA. There have been experiments with the F16 for ages and this means if India gets access to those research material it would advance a lot in aerospace tech.

The million dollar question is

Will we get that technology in complete form - from research to enabling MIC with skill development

or
we will assemble the same very best technology from kits ..

What will LM and all those OEMs and support blocks gain by giving us the research and tech? How many F16s orders are needed to finance such a sharing? In all probability pretty huge numbers may be 150+.. and the biggest stumbling block is Senate .. they have to approve this transfer which normally is not possible..

I can tell you if that would have given us F15s Silent Eagle i would have advocated it surely.. but thats not in cards nor will be ever.. There is a much higher chance of giving F35s bcz that gets them the hype and marketing that even India likes the aircraft over F15SE

 

[Abba_Dabba_Jabba]

It's very confusing situation out there for IAF and MoD,

F-16 :- USA maal, PAF uses it, 40 year old air-frame.
F-18 :- For navy not for Air force, not suitable.
Typhoon :- Too many supplier & politics, Costly like hell.
Gripen :- Once again supplier constraint.
Mig-35 :- It's Russian.
&
Rafale :- Sala ye bhi costly hai.

Is LM offering F-35 by any chance ? Lets include it to the list as well. Why IAF & MoD wants to acquire 4-4.5 gen jet when USA allies are getting F-35.