The ethics and legal aspects of drone warfare

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

That may be true, but at least they do try to publish dissent to prevailing views as well.

The 'dissenting' voices are completely overshadowed by the US Establishment propaganda ...

 

[VCheng]

The 'dissenting' voices are completely overshadowed by the US Establishment propaganda ...

If that is the case, then an intelligent campaign to counter it would be an good idea, and some might say, even overdue.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If that is the case, then an intelligent campaign to counter it would be an good idea, and some might say, even overdue.

So long as the US media keeps trumpeting the 'anonymously sourced' propaganda of the US Establishment, an 'intelligence campaign' has little chance of being heard in the cacophony ...

For a change to take place, it is the US Establishment that has to give up on its war-mongering, arrogant attitude, and stop pushing its propaganda through the major media houses.

 

[VCheng]

So long as the US media keeps trumpeting the 'anonymously sourced' propaganda of the US Establishment, an 'intelligence campaign' has little chance of being heard in the cacophony ...

For a change to take place, it is the US Establishment that has to give up on its war-mongering, arrogant attitude, and stop pushing its propaganda through the major media houses.

I was referring to an intelligenT campaign my dear Sir. I suppose there is a difference between what I said and what you understood.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I was referring to an intelligenT campaign my dear Sir. I suppose there is a difference between what I said and what you understood.

No, there was no difference between what you said and what I understood, merely a typo.

I apologize for so easily distracting you from the point being made ...

 

[VCheng]

No, there was no difference between what you said and what I understood, merely a typo.

I apologize for so easily distracting you from the point being made ...

Apology accepted, while remaining within my mental limitations of course.

To come back to the point I was trying to make, reactive complaints in Pakistan won't go very far in changing perceptions in the US. One way to be more effective to seek the changes that you want the US to do would be to mount a pro-active media blitz highlighting the critical roles Pakistan has played since 9/11 in the US mainstream media.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

One way to be more effective to seek the changes that you want the US to do would be to mount a pro-active media blitz highlighting the critical roles Pakistan has played since 9/11 in the US mainstream media.

Which would subsequently be painted as an 'ISI spy network/campaign' ....

The Pakistani viewpoint is certainly out there, the ISI and military have been extremely open to members of the media, and their Points of View have been published, even in the Western media.

The problem remains that the 'propaganda of the US Establishment' is promoted with far more frequency and volume than any of the pro-Pakistan positions.

 

[VCheng]

Which would subsequently be painted as an 'ISI spy network/campaign' ....

The Pakistani viewpoint is certainly out there, the ISI and military have been extremely open to members of the media, and their Points of View have been published, even in the Western media.

The problem remains that the 'propaganda of the US Establishment' is promoted with far more frequency and volume than any of the pro-Pakistan positions.

Yes, but that is where exactly where the need for being smarter in trying to beat US media would be critical.

Or are you saying that it is futile to even try to do so?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yes, but that is where exactly where the need for being smarter in trying to beat US media would be critical.

And how exactly do you suggest we 'be smarter' in trying to 'beat the US media'?

Or are you saying that it is futile to even try to do so?

The facts are that the US/Western media, have a significant share of the marketplace, especially when it comes to English speaking audiences. So if your position is that Pakistan seek to target this English speaking (American primarily) audience through a 'smarter media campaign', then that cannot be done without the contribution of the US media.

And if the US media has thrown objective and unbiased foreign affairs related journalism out the window, for the sake of 'national security and patriotism', then I see no chance of the Western media playing any part in providing a more balanced picture of Pakistan and its policies - which means that any pro-Pakistan campaign has a very, very limited platform from which to campaign from.

 

[gambit]

And how exactly do you suggest we 'be smarter' in trying to 'beat the US media'?

The facts are that the US/Western media, have a significant share of the marketplace, especially when it comes to English speaking audiences. So if your position is that Pakistan seek to target this English speaking (American primarily) audience through a 'smarter media campaign', then that cannot be done without the contribution of the US media.

And if the US media has thrown objective and unbiased foreign affairs related journalism out the window, for the sake of 'national security and patriotism', then I see no chance of the Western media playing any part in providing a more balanced picture of Pakistan and its policies - which means that any pro-Pakistan campaign has a very, very limited platform from which to campaign from.

No one can prevent the Pakistanis from having their own media apparatus. This 'Western media' domination is a canard. You have access to the Internet, no? You have access to Western social and political figures like Noam Chomsky who are anti-US at every chance he get, no? By the way, Chomsky is a millionaire so it is not as if it will cost Pakistan a bundle to pay for his thoughts. Just a round-trip air ticket will do.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No one can prevent the Pakistanis from having their own media apparatus.

Funds certainly can, and even Al Jazeera continues to face significant hurdles (though less than in the Bush years) through its characterization as a 'pro terrorist, anti-American media outlet'.

Pakistan lacks the funding and clout of the Arab royals, and therefore would face an even larger hurdle.

This 'Western media' domination is a canard. You have access to the Internet, no? You have access to Western social and political figures like Noam Chomsky who are anti-US at every chance he get, no? By the way, Chomsky is a millionaire so it is not as if it will cost Pakistan a bundle to pay for his thoughts. Just a round-trip air ticket will do.

It is not about whether 'I have access to the internet', it is about the vast majority of the American electorate, who alone an force the US Establishment to change policy, choosing to dig deeper into analysis and events revolving around a country (Pakistan) that has little to no impact on their daily lives, and then choosing to advocate and campaign strongly enough to make the US Establishment pause and change direction.

With the focus of a vast majority of Americans on the economy and crumbling governance at home, the two minute sound bytes promoting the US Establishment line on the MSM are more than sufficient to build a narrative based on distortions and smear campaigns.

 

[VCheng]

And how exactly do you suggest we 'be smarter' in trying to 'beat the US media'?

The facts are that the US/Western media, have a significant share of the marketplace, especially when it comes to English speaking audiences. So if your position is that Pakistan seek to target this English speaking (American primarily) audience through a 'smarter media campaign', then that cannot be done without the contribution of the US media.

And if the US media has thrown objective and unbiased foreign affairs related journalism out the window, for the sake of 'national security and patriotism', then I see no chance of the Western media playing any part in providing a more balanced picture of Pakistan and its policies - which means that any pro-Pakistan campaign has a very, very limited platform from which to campaign from.

Emulate the known successes: For example, check out the charm offensive by India, and the many ways its diaspora help out due to active and close engagements with both the home country and US society at large. Have consular officers go out and communicate all that Pakistan is doing. Get the diaspora to mount phone-in campaigns and participate in fund-raising for both relief efforts in Pakistan, and for congressional activities. Start with local news coverage, and then build up on it. Encourage cultural activities, have Pakistani shows for the average Joe, outside the Beltway. The list goes on and on.

Instead of complaining about the rules of the game that one cannot change, learn to play the game better with existing rules.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Emulate the known successes: For example, check out the charm offensive by India, and the many ways its diaspora help out due to active and close engagements with both the home country and US society at large. Have consular officers go out and communicate all that Pakistan is doing. Get the diaspora to mount phone-in campaigns and participate in fund-raising for both relief efforts in Pakistan, and for congressional activities. Start with local news coverage, and then build up on it. Encourage cultural activities, have Pakistani shows for the average Joe, outside the Beltway. The list goes on and on.

Instead of complaining about the rules of the game that one cannot change, learn to play the game better with existing rules.

All of which is then undermined by a single article headlined by Sanger/Shmidt and Co. in the NYT, and carried by the other major networks, reporting anonymous sources as claiming that Pakistan's Army and ISI knowingly sheltered OBL.

Your suggestions are great, I am not against them by any means, but the Indians and Israelis do not have the US Establishment and its media mouthpieces furiously pushing a smear campaign against them either.

In the absence of the US Establishment backing off in its smear campaign against Pakistan, your suggestions will make little to no impact.

Our Ambassador Haqqani, for all my criticizm of him, is doing exactly what you suggest - he has been tirelessly promoting Pakistan's case to any and every media outlet he can find. Musharraf and various other former ambassadors and Pakistani analysts are also frequently on the airwaves doing what you suggest. Zardari (or his ghost writer) is a frequent Op-Ed contributor to both the WaPO and NYT.

What has changed? If anything the perceptions of Pakistan in the US continue to go further downhill in the face of the smear campaign launched by the US Establishment.

Changing perceptions will not happen without the US Establishment backing off, and even if it did, Pakistan is unlikely to arouse the kind of advocacy from the US electorate that could force the US Establishment to change direction.

The US electorate is human after all - what possibly does protesting in the streets (in favor of Pakistan or in favor of Pakistan's position of a more cooperative relationship) in large enough numbers do for Americans?

The only country that might arouse that kind of grass-roots political and street support is Israel, and that too would be largely due to the religious right and conservative political segments of society.

 

[VCheng]

All of which is then undermined by a single article headlined by Sanger/Shmidt and Co. in the NYT, and carried by the other major networks, reporting anonymous sources as claiming that Pakistan's Army and ISI knowingly sheltered OBL.

Your suggestions are great, I am not against them by any means, but the Indians and Israelis do not have the US Establishment and its media mouthpieces furiously pushing a smear campaign against them either.

In the absence of the US Establishment backing off in its smear campaign against Pakistan, your suggestions will make little to no impact.

Our Ambassador Haqqani, for all my criticizm of him, is doing exactly what you suggest - he has been tirelessly promoting Pakistan's case to any and every media outlet he can find. Musharraf and various other former ambassadors and Pakistani analysts are also frequently on the airwaves doing what you suggest. Zardari (or his ghost writer) is a frequent Op-Ed contributor to both the WaPO and NYT.

What has changed? If anything the perceptions of Pakistan in the US continue to go further downhill in the face of the smear campaign launched by the US Establishment.

Changing perceptions will not happen without the US Establishment backing off, and even if it did, Pakistan is unlikely to arouse the kind of advocacy from the US electorate that could force the US Establishment to change direction.

The US electorate is human after all - what possibly does protesting in the streets (in favor of Pakistan or in favor of Pakistan's position of a more cooperative relationship) in large enough numbers do for Americans?

The only country that might arouse that kind of grass-roots political and street support is Israel, and that too would be largely due to the religious right and conservative political segments of society.

All your objections can be countered by getting the diaspora to engage more effectively than you may realize. It will surely take a while to reach Israel's level of support, but a strategy to mimicking their game is a good starting point.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

All your objections can be countered by getting the diaspora to engage more effectively than you may realize. It will surely take a while to reach Israel's level of support, but a strategy to mimicking their game is a good starting point.

How? As I pointed out, Haqqani, Musharraf, Lodhi, Shuja Nawaz etc. have all been frequenting the airwaves pushing Pakistan's cause, and reaching millions more than any 'conference by the local chapter of APPNA' could reach.

Their efforts have been stymied and negated by the anti-Pakistan narrative pushed through the US Establishments smear campaign against Pakistan. The diaspora's efforts are going to have a similarly negligible impact in the face of the propaganda from the US Establishment.