The enemy and Pakistan Army

[Contrarian]

I am touched by your naivete. For an Indian, you seem to have misjudged Pakistani domestic dynamics completely. What you advocate would work in a normal country but, sadly for both of us, Pakistan is not a normal country in this respect. Pakistanis support the army, not because we suffer from some genetic anomaly to love military dictators, but because the feudal charade of a civilian setup is so utterly corrupt. If India thinks it will drive a wedge between the people and the army by supporting the feudals, I say please do it loudly and with utmost fanfare.

The reason why your polity fails to deliver is because it has never been given enough time to be held accountable. They will be held accountable by the people every 5 years. Tell me how many times has that happened?

By nature Indians and Pakistani's are not very different. It was the same case with India. The political leaders fail to deliver and instead keep plundering. However every 10-15 years, a leader comes that promises change, delivers just a little bit more. That then becomes the benchmark and others have to atleast maintain that small level. That small level over 60 years has delivered something now.

That is how it evolves - very slowly, very incrementally.

This argument has been debated earlier in the thread by notorious and others who are military men, hence far more capable than I to rebut these claims.

He and i disagree on basics. In anycase, what we do is all anslysis of what is happening. I am content with what is happening - Pakistan agree'ing more and more to accomodate Indian concerns. Agreeing to no change in territory in Kashmir, agreeing to demarcate AGPL in Siachen. This totally different from what they demanded even 10 years back.

So whatever we are doing is certainly delivering some results.

 

[Developereo]

The reason why your polity fails to deliver is because it has never been given enough time to be held accountable. They will be held accountable by the people every 5 years. Tell me how many times has that happened?

This is where you give too much credit to Pakistani civilian institutions. There is no accountability because these institutions are corrupted from top to bottom with the feudals' cronies. The only exception might be Karachi and other areas which are shared between ruthless ethnic parties' thugs. So, in many ways, India and Pakistan are not as alike as you think.

That is why the educated urban voters are clamoring for Imran Khan. He may not be perfect but, compared to the alternatives, he is the best we have by far.

 

[Contrarian]

This is where you give too much credit to Pakistani civilian institutions. There is no accountability because these institutions are corrupted from top to bottom with the feudals' cronies. The only exception might be Karachi and other areas which are shared between ruthless ethnic parties' thugs. So, in many ways, India and Pakistan are not as alike as you think.

That is why the educated urban voters are clamoring for Imran Khan. He may not be perfect but, compared to the alternatives, he is the best we have by far.

And this is exactly how things were here as well. To a large extent how things still are in India. You give too much credit to India if you think this is not exactly how things are here as well.

And this is exactly what i am talking about. There is change but its incremental and it is very slow. And it takes 2-3 elections for just that little bit of change. Politicians dont deliver any results out of the goodness of their hearts. They are forced to by the threat of removal from power. And people have a short memory, they still keep voting for the same $hit! But every 10-15 years..
Just that in Pakistan's case, there have never been 2 successive elections.

 

[Developereo]

And this is exactly how things were here as well. To a large extent how things still are in India. You give too much credit to India if you think this is not exactly how things are here as well.

And this is exactly what i am talking about. There is change but its incremental and it is very slow. And it takes 2-3 elections for just that little bit of change. Politicians dont deliver any results out of the goodness of their hearts. They are forced to by the threat of removal from power. And people have a short memory, they still keep voting for the same $hit! But every 10-15 years..
Just that in Pakistan's case, there have never been 2 successive elections.

Pakistan has two major parties, both dynastic and feudal. It is so pathetic, Zardari is already grooming little Billy Boy to take over the "family business", complete with the sham of a Bhutto surname! And the masses will vote for them because their feudal master tells them to. The other party is equally vile.

India has the Gandhi dynasty, but the BJP is there to ensure some semblance of honesty and merit.

 

[Wickerman]

So, once again, you agree with the premise of the OP that India is engaged in hostile actions against Pakistan!

Not hostile actions.But I have said it many times before in this thread. From a military and strategic point of view, what the OP has said is not wrong. India maintains pressure on Pakistan by building up more and more, by outspending it, outgunning it and by outearning (if thats even a word) it. The pressure is to deter. However when it comes to asking "Who is Pakistan's enemy", then that solely points to forces within Pakistan. Not outside. The so called Indian pressure is merely retaliation.

 

[Contrarian]

Pakistan has two major parties, both dynastic and feudal. It is so pathetic, Zardari is already grooming little Billy Boy to take over the "family business", complete with the sham of a Bhutto surname! And the masses will vote for them because their feudal master tells them to. The other party is equally vile.

India has the Gandhi dynasty, but the BJP is there to ensure some semblance of honesty and merit.

The Gandhi family is also run. Rahul is also being groomed to take up the family business and become the PM.
BJP is quasi dynastic. By no means should you consider BJP to be less corrupt than Congress today. BJP when it started off had an ideological goal and they strived for it. Today having tasted power and money, they have become just the same!

Think about it. What makes you think Indians are any different or dont promote their kith and kin in what is a very profitable business -Politics.

Its just that they have been held accountable every 5 years. So every decade there is a little bit better than the last one.

What you are expecting is for democracy to usher in a revolution and transform Pakistan. That is the opposite of how democracy works. It only delivers results very very slowly but is more stable and so when left for decades - does show change.

An example - China is able to provide national development much much faster than India ever can. The day they start democracy, their growth will also slow down.

 

[vsdoc]

The Gandhi family is also run. Rahul is also being groomed to take up the family business and become the PM.
BJP is quasi dynastic. By no means should you consider BJP to be less corrupt than Congress today. BJP when it started off had an ideological goal and they strived for it. Today having tasted power and money, they have become just the same!

Think about it. What makes you think Indians are any different or dont promote their kith and kin in what is a very profitable business -Politics.

Its just that they have been held accountable every 5 years. So every decade there is a little bit better than the last one.

What you are expecting is for democracy to usher in a revolution and transform Pakistan. That is the opposite of how democracy works. It only delivers results very very slowly but is more stable and so when left for decades - does show change.

An example - China is able to provide national development much much faster than India ever can. The day they start democracy, their growth will also slow down.

So the China model over Democracy then?

How has a China model worked where other dictatorships and the USSR model failed?

I'm derailing the thread. Sorry.

Back to bad India.

 

[Developereo]

What makes you think Indians are any different

The difference is that rural Indian masses are not told by their feudal lord how to vote. The democracy in Pakistan is only illusory, except for the urban voters.

 

[PRINCE_THE_SHOWSTOPPER]

The difference is that rural Indian masses are not told by their feudal lord how to vote. The democracy in Pakistan is only illusory, except for the urban voters.

dude then u don't know the entire story..how to u think a top 2 bottom corrupted party like the CPI(M) was in power in bengal for 33yrs!!! people start laughing when they hear that.This was only due to mass rigging of elections,threatning the rural voters.They used to threaten the poor,illiterate voters of the vilages with dire consequences,used to capture the booths of urban voters... would u still say the political system of india and pakistan (or for that matter,the entire south-east asia) is different???

 

[PRINCE_THE_SHOWSTOPPER]

India has just recently become sustainable, and that too with your human resources. What you have achieved is not mind blowing by any standard. If you feel it is something to brag about then post to your heart's desire.

Where was India 30 years ago?

at a position far far better off than pakistan

 

[RazPaK]

My father, since you raised his memory in a very strange fashion, was born in a poor family and got into his imperial service due to excellent performance in the relevant competitive examination. Both General, later Field Marshal Cariappa and Col., later General Osmany were personal friends. Every GOC-in-C East from 'Bogey' Sen onward has been our guest, the last being 'Jake' Jacob, who was a close friend. When he died, the Governor came home to pay his respects, and he was given a service funeral with full honours.

No, he was not an Englishman. His English was perfect, and so were his manners. Among his civilian friends, he numbered Hasan Suhrawardy, who sought him out even when he was PM of your country, and Iqbal Athar Ali, your Ambassador to Belgium, who hosted my parents when they visited Bruxelles to see the battlefield at Waterloo. Khwaja Mohammed Kaisar, whom only those would know who are familiar with the history of Pakistan, the Nawab Family of Dhaka and the details of Kissinger's visit to Beijing, was perhaps among his closest friends, though drawn from diametrically opposite ends of the social scale: the son of an history professor did not rate with the Nawabs.

The way I was brought up by this man and his wife prevents me from doing more than recording these details. It is sad that he should be dragged into this discussion; to be honest, I do not believe that any member of the forum is entitled to question him or his life's work or his manners or upbringing. We are poor people, but you will be surprised to learn that even poor people have pride in their families and their honourable ancestors.

I am personally not offended, only surprised that someone, anyone, should so lose his sense of decorum and be so utterly boorish. Clearly, this is not a forum where I am wanted.

Relax Joe. You are very much wanted here. Things in Pak vs India debates get heated and it is easy to lose your cool. Again, I apologize to you.

The story of your father has taught me something whether you believe it or not.

 

[KRAIT]

Relax Joe. You are very much wanted here. Things in Pak vs India debates get heated and is easy to lose your cool. Again, I apologize to you.

Nice gesture buddy.
Hope, Joe accept this apology especially after this reaction.

 

[neokautilya2]

We were worshiping Ahura Mazda, our God.

We were following the teachings of Zarathushtra, our Prophet.

And the holy Atash (Fire) as a symbol of Ahura Mazda's purity.

Regardless Talon.

What business was it of your Prophet and his General led armies to attack Persia?

He was the first (and only) Prophet who followed the path of worldly politics and war.

The path of spread by military conquests.

Unrelenting.

That path more than anything during his lifetime set the tone for the religion and its followers for the 14 centuries to follow.

Do you guys truly believe the Religion of Peace thing or simply pay lip service to it because that's the way its written somewhere?

well said doc

 

[Joe Shearer]

Relax Joe. You are very much wanted here. Things in Pak vs India debates get heated and it is easy to lose your cool. Again, I apologize to you.

The story of your father has taught me something whether you believe it or not.

I came back at around 9:45 from a dreary legal meeting which had lasted several hours more than it should to find some mails and comments that were astonishing. My post about my father was just a gentle reminder to a young person for whom I have a soft corner that introducing our family members is not kosher; it might be a reference in jest, which Raz Pak certainly intended, but the object of the joke might be a person worth respect in his own right, if not as a family member of our PDF member.

The original remark was light-hearted and funny, and I smiled at it, but with some troubled feeling; it was an infelicitous reference. But nothing more; Raz Pak's apprehension of obscenity was so utterly off the mark, and the offensiveness was more than ameliorated by his very generous remarks of 11:55, which I noted with some approval and not a little delight; it was just what was called for, though a trifle excessive for really a minor matter.

Please be sure that I can have nothing but warm and considerate feelings for someone six years younger than my beloved daughter (to our great grief, her grandfather did not live to see her marriage next January, an event for which he had waited patiently for years). I disappeared because the lawyers were waiting, and their clocks were on, not in a huff and a cloud of smoke, although at the time I wrote those words, there was some misgiving in my mind if we older people really belonged to this robust, modern culture.

PS: Raz Pak, my father married above himself. I am the son of a Chaudhurain in her own right.

 

[RazPaK]

I came back at around 9:45 from a dreary legal meeting which had lasted several hours more than it should to find some mails and comments that were astonishing. My post about my father was just a gentle reminder to a young person for whom I have a soft corner that introducing our family members is not kosher; it might be a reference in jest, which Raz Pak certainly intended, but the object of the joke might be a person worth respect in his own right, if not as a family member of our PDF member.

The original remark was light-hearted and funny, and I smiled at it, but with some troubled feeling; it was an infelicitous reference. But nothing more; Raz Pak's apprehension of obscenity was so utterly off the mark, and the offensiveness was more than ameliorated by his very generous remarks of 11:55, which I noted with some approval and not a little delight; it was just what was called for, though a trifle excessive for really a minor matter.

Please be sure that I can have nothing but warm and considerate feelings for someone six years younger than my beloved daughter (to our great grief, her grandfather did not live to see her marriage next January, an event for which he had waited patiently for years). I disappeared because the lawyers were waiting, and their clocks were on, not in a huff and a cloud of smoke, although at the time I wrote those words, there was some misgiving in my mind if we older people really belonged to this robust, modern culture.

PS: Raz Pak, my father married above himself. I am the son of a Chaudhurain in her own right.

My comment was intended to take a jab at your English, rather than your father, but I wasn't certain you understood that.

So I just wanted to apologize in advance. No hard feelings.