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The enemy and Pakistan Army

I had seen it before and was reluctant to comment in it because I knew the inevitable course of any thread here related to Islam. I only commented because vsdoc specifically asked me, and to give the benefit of the doubt. However, the thread has degenerated as I feared.

He did it on purpose so that people could bash Islam, while in the guise of an "angel".

I have read his views on Islam prior to this.


And I can't believe Asim fell for it...

Religion is a banned topic, but that bharti found a loophole.
 
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Plausibly deniable aggression - can you hear yourself? Does it not seem somewhat - a tad, perhaps - contradictory a sentiment?

Just wondering. Not everything in a nightmare makes sense in the broad light of day.

Plausible deniability referred to covert support for extremist elements within Pakistan. What is contradictory about that?

We are still on the theme of hypothetical actions that India might take that will endanger Pakistanis and Pakistan if those actions are taken, and which will look horrible in the eyes of the world when India takes them, and will put at threat Pakistanis and Pakistan, OMIGOD, I CAN SEE THEM COFFINS!

Nothing hypothetical here. I was responding to Bang Galore's very specific claims of using the river flows as a weapon and responded that such a move would be a bad PR disaster for India.
 
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Plausible deniability referred to covert support for extremist elements within Pakistan. What is contradictory about that?



Nothing hypothetical here. I was responding to Bang Galore's very specific claims of using the river flows as a weapon and responded that such a move would be a bad PR disaster for India.

Everything bad that happens in pakistan is due to India's involvement,
Your endless military cops, pathetic situation of political process, bhuttos's death, Zia's death, lawyers movement, karachi killings, TTP, balochistan insurgency since 70's.

Pakistan army has no role in anything.

No introspection, just keep blaming India. Do anything possible to demonize India without a single shred of evidence.
 
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Everything bad that happens in pakistan is due to India's involvement,
Your endless military cops, pathetic situation of political process, bhuttos's death, Zia's death, lawyers movement, karachi killings, TTP, balochistan insurgency since 70's.

Pakistan army has no role in anything.

No introspection, just keep blaming India. Do anything possible to demonize India without a single shred of evidence.

Dear delusional bharti,

we have recovered weapons with serial numbers that have been tracked to your Mataa.


We have photos of Bramdagh in Dehli being met by your diplomats.

Please cut the bs.
 
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Plausible deniability referred to covert support for extremist elements within Pakistan. What is contradictory about that?



Nothing hypothetical here. I was responding to Bang Galore's very specific claims of using the river flows as a weapon and responded that such a move would be a bad PR disaster for India.

Well , even i support using river flow as a bargaining chip. A point will come when people will just get tired of terrorist attacks, and their perpetrators moving freely in Pakistan. At that point , people will no longer care about PR disasters or whatever and will actively support blocking of the river. You think you can shelter terrorists like Hafiz Saeed and Dawood ibrahim and nothing's going to happen ?
 
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Pakistan's existential obsession with India, and her inability to think of anything without a direct or indirect reference to India, sticks out prominently

The fact is that we are joined at the hip since 47, we have had several run ins with each other, and perhaps the most major territorial dispute for either side is Kashmir. The troop deployments confirm this view so I am surprised that you are downplaying the importance of India in Pakistan's calculus.

This fundamental mistake, to think that what a Pakistani thinks Indians are thinking is correct, vitiates the entire exercise.

As my penultimate paragraph, which you unfortunately think is moot, spells out, we are well aware that you have your Manmohan Singhs and your Indira Gandhis. And we must plan for the hawks, not the doves in India.

Even here on this forum, we hear the full spectrum of Indian views from peaceful coexistence to outright dismantling of the PA and even balkanization. India's past adventurism though Afghanistan and Baluchistan -- which you will deny -- justifies our concern.

Just because Pakistan is determined not to allow India to be the leader in the region does not mean that India wants to be the leader in the region. All India wants is a peaceful and pleasant experience at SAARC meetings, not the teeth-bared hostility of one of the members infecting any combination of the others.

Again, there's a spectrum of Indian views on this. Perhaps it's a generational thing and, judging by the views of the younger generation, the trend is not good for regional peace. There is increasing clamor by younger Indians for India to become more "assertive" -- a view dutifully echoed by the US.

Much of it is, of course, human nature. After all, what's the point of making a million dollars unless you swap that boring Toyota for a shiny Ferrari?

India has had natural good relations with Afghanistan

Absolutely. I fully accept that India has had stellar relations with Afghanistan -- too stellar for our comfort, given India's shenanigans there -- but my point was that the relationship was terminated post Soviet withdrawal and had to be reinstated. Again, the issue is not just relations with Afghanistan, but an uninterrupted route from India into the CARs. There are only two ways: either via Iran or through Pakistan.

the US works for its own interests, not for Indian interests

Again, no argument. I wrote as much that the US-India nexus was formed because of a confluence of interests over China, Pakistan's nukes, etc. I will admit that I believe Indian (hawks') agenda far exceeds the US agenda in terms of neutralizing Pakistan. Granted, the Indian doves may not share the extreme agenda but the US has decided to bet on the Indian hawks because they are the ones who will take a more "assertive" role in the region.

Pakistani propensity to imagine that some slick diplomacy will revolutionize the world.

You are too kind to use that adjective to describe Pakistani diplomacy; most of us would use very different words. I believe Pakistan's strategy should be to focus on the economy and soft power. It's not about 'fooling anyone' but simply making sure our point of view gets as much airtime as any opposing views.

you are able to say, without even a particle, a scintilla of evidence, that there is a constant Indian reinforcement of its demand that emasculating Pakistan is India's price for any cooperation in the USA's wider geo-political games.

Oh, but we do have evidence. Every time Pakistan even thinks about any military purchase, India objects. Indian propagandists, at home and in the West, are the loudest cheerleaders of censuring Pakistan.

But the best evidence is the behavior and comments of Western and Russian dignitaries when they visit India. It is almost ritualistic for them to utter a few choice words about Pakistan while in India.

I believe that the second last paragraph remains moot

Indeed, if you accept it as fact, then why would you question Pakistan's strategy of preparing for the worst of India while hoping for the best?
 
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Nothing hypothetical here. I was responding to Bang Galore's very specific claims of using the river flows as a weapon and responded that such a move would be a bad PR disaster for India.

I have already explained my point but since this keeps coming back, I shall do so again.

It is not about then actual use of water as the weapon, it is that Pakistani planners will be forced to factor that in because of the existence of that capability. It's simply the extension of all your arguments of looking at capabilities, not intentions. Just like any actual conflict would be a PR disaster to India, any reduction of the "moral high ground" will be a factor though not of a similar level as actual open conflict. Regardless, Pakistan will have to assume that the Indian capability on water may come into play and plan accordingly which does serve the Indian position in adding in both a psychological as well as an actual lever.
 
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Everything bad that happens in pakistan is due to India's involvement,
Your endless military cops, pathetic situation of political process, bhuttos's death, Zia's death, lawyers movement, karachi killings, TTP, balochistan insurgency since 70's.

Pakistan army has no role in anything.

No introspection, just keep blaming India. Do anything possible to demonize India without a single shred of evidence.

If you read carefully, we are admitting that the problems have indigenous origins, but foreign elements are opportunistically using our mistakes.

Well , even i support using river flow as a bargaining chip. A point will come when people will just get tired of terrorist attacks, and their perpetrators moving freely in Pakistan. At that point , people will no longer care about PR disasters or whatever and will actively support blocking of the river. You think you can shelter terrorists like Hafiz Saeed and Dawood ibrahim and nothing's going to happen ?

It will backfire on India. Punishing the ISI or Pak army may be one thing, but to starve millions of farmers in retaliation?

I have already explained my point but since this keeps coming back, I shall do so again.

It is not about then actual use of water as the weapon, it is that Pakistani planners will be forced to factor that in because of the existence of that capability. It's simply the extension of all your arguments of looking at capabilities, not intentions. Just like any actual conflict would be a PR disaster to India, any reduction of the "moral high ground" will be a factor though not of a similar level as actual open conflict. Regardless, Pakistan will have to assume that the Indian capability on water may come into play and plan accordingly which does serve the Indian position in adding in both a psychological as well as an actual lever.

There is every possibility that Pakistan might consider any large scale river closures as equivalent to a nuclear strike -- the same way the US considers downing an AC as a trigger for nuclear retaliation. And the high moral ground for world public opinion would come into play here.
 
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After Mumbai they threatened us with surgical strikes.

One statement by the Taliban left them silent and not a peep was heard from them again.


India cannot afford to engage a populace which is battle hardened and accustomed to tactics of guerrilla warfare. Vsdoc's fantasy about getting into one city is laughable to say the least.

yeah , LOL. Taliban don't want anyone else creating havoc in Pakistan. They want to do it themselves and have all the fun , and I think they are doing it better than what Indian army could ever dream of. They probably thought they will get exterminated by the Indian army in anti terrorist ops, and thus started giving such patriotic dialogues , and here we have you , feeling so proud.
Secondly , you are dumb enough to even think that we stopped surgical strikes just because a few fat old ugly graybeards threatened us. They are just amateur fighters with an ak-47.

Thirdly , "a populace which is battle hardened and accustomed to tactics of guerrilla warfare." . So you mean to say that every citizen of Pakistan is an expert in Guerilla warfare? Whatever you are smoking , it's really good.

If you read carefully, we are admitting that the problems have indigenous origins, but foreign elements are opportunistically using our mistakes.



It will backfire on India. Punishing the ISI or Pak army may be one thing, but to starve millions of farmers in retaliation?



There is every possibility that Pakistan might consider any large scale river closures as equivalent to a nuclear strike -- the same way the US considers downing an AC as a trigger for nuclear retaliation. And the high moral ground for world public opinion would come into play here.

Well , that's the very point of blocking the river. It's impossible to cause harm to the ISI and your army. The point of blocking the river is not to cause harm to normal civilians and farmers , but to persuade ISI and your government to stop sheltering militants. If they care about the farmers you are speaking about , they will definitely take some positive initiatives.

PS - and then the water can flow back again.
 
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There is every possibility that Pakistan might consider any large scale river closures as equivalent to a nuclear strike -- the same way the US considers downing an AC as a trigger for nuclear retaliation. And the high moral ground for world public opinion would come into play here.



Maybe, but could your planners rule it out? Just like whether they can actually completely rule out an Indian armoured thrust into Pakistan regardless of the nuclear strike capability.

Secondly, any actual use of the water weapon will be more akin to a screw than a tap. Reduction of water by abrogating the IWT & seeking to replace it with one more consistent with international principles of water sharing may be enough to do the trick. The fact remains that you are somewhat dependent on Indian generosity on that score.

Btw, if Pakistan actually sees the holding of water as being akin to a nuclear strike, what exactly has it done? India continues to build with her own money, the world continues to support India's position (no one has complained) & Pakistan is not able to build any of its own dams because India continues to block any such construction by disallowing any multilateral institution funding, effectively already making you pay a water price.

There are no such things as free lunches in the world of diplomacy & for people who think that there is no cost to tensions with India, time to think again.
 
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I'm slightly amused by your point on the high moral ground because you seem willing to readily cede it to us; either because you truly believe it to be true or you are counting on us taking such a ground to save your countrymen from actual pain.

Sorry, I just read this earlier post of yours.

Anyway, about moral high ground, as I mentioned, the PR war is just as important as the military war. I am not ceding the moral high ground to anyone since both sides would be clamoring to claim it. India will try to claim it as the victim of terrorism emanating, allegedly, from Pakistan. If, in retaliation, it takes measures that cause deaths of Pakistani civilians, then India will become the aggressor and will no longer be able to claim the victim status.

For comparison, in retaliation for 9/11, the US didn't carpet bomb Kabul. Instead they made every show of specifically targeting militant outfits. If India thinks it has been wronged by the Pak security forces, the only option is to engage them directly, not go around starving Pakistani farmers.

It's impossible to cause harm to the ISI and your army. The point of blocking the river is not to cause harm to normal civilians and farmers , but to persuade ISI and your government to stop sheltering militants.

You may buy that line of logic, but I can guarantee you that the world won't. Not when there are TV pictures of starving people.
 
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Maybe, but could your planners rule it out? Just like whether they can actually completely rule out an Indian armoured thrust into Pakistan regardless of the nuclear strike capability.

They can make it clear to India and the world what Pakistan's response would be to any significant reduction in the water supply.

the world continues to support India's position (no one has complained) & Pakistan is not able to build any of its own dams

There is no denying that India has more clout around the globe than does Pakistan. It's all about crossing red lines.
 
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Dear delusional bharti,

we have recovered weapons with serial numbers that have been tracked to your Mataa.


We have photos of Bramdagh in Dehli being met by your diplomats.

Please cut the bs.

as always, Pure BS ... what serial number?? zero evidence. thats it
 
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They can make it clear to India and the world what Pakistan's response would be to any significant reduction in the water supply.

That lever works both ways. India can then tell what exactly it wants from Pakistan. Once the lever is created, there is no running away from it. The intention of India is not to reduce your water but simply to get you to change your behaviour. The world is not about to give you a patient hearing on what you might do w.r.t. the water issue if the way to automatically solve it exists in Pakistani hands by addressing Indian concerns.

The nuclear strike analogy could work two ways if India were to suggest that a major terrorist attack in India traced to Pakistan is equivalent to a declaration of war (warranting the abrogation of the IWT as an initial response). Pakistan then will be left with the choice of threatening to go nuclear or simply address Indian concerns on terrorism.
 
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If India thinks it has been wronged by the Pak security forces, the only option is to engage them directly, not go around starving Pakistani farmers.

That would be similar to sanctions though, wouldn't it?
 
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