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The enemy and Pakistan Army

Rhetoricim is not the reality and the facts placed exposed the stark reality in front of all. Yet the belief system disavows the realism that is indeed so apparent and so visible.
:woot: hahaha by the way there is no such word as 'Rhetoricim' or 'Rhetoricism'. Thought you would like to know:pop:

Arrey Amriknon se to hamein bahot hi pyaar hai na, isi liye.

Magar tum log aisi ghalti na karna kabhi - tumhaari dhuee thok dein ge. Period.

Did any one get the irony or it's just me. Pay attention to the word 'magar tum log' .. bhale hi hamen loot le saara zamaana magar tum sanam haath na lagana :partay:


After Mumbai they threatened us with surgical strikes.

One statement by the Taliban left them silent and not a peep was heard from them again.


India cannot afford to engage a populace which is battle hardened and accustomed to tactics of guerrilla warfare. Vsdoc's fantasy about getting into one city is laughable to say the least.

Repeat that every night before you sleep.

BTW you are right about Vsdoc fantasy being laughable. we don't want any of you sucking our economy dry. There are already enough ajtrs as is.

For those who think of bombing us back to stone age. keep dreaming. Your army with all its techs at best can only HOLD us for a few days before you war machinery is destroyed or international forces butt in. Some of your knowledgeable members know this.

That is your whole objective. That is all you can hope for.

Case in point. Your reliance on nukes. If you were really so sure about the prowess of your army as you boast you wouldn't worry about building tactical nukes or nasr or whatever. We don't.

Also some food for thought for you. No one here loses sleep over your tactical nukes. In fact it has made our jobs easier. Go figure.
 
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Thank You Joe Saab, Capt Popeye and Krait for your posts

I want to expand on the claim made by vsdoc, that the disbanding of PA is the ultimate aim of India on which work has already began. The question is, how does India achieve this? Does it achieve this through a military strike, a prolonge diplomatic campaign or a mix of both.

I agree with with Joe Saab that looking at the balance of power between both the Armies, a Drawn War is the most likely outcome. Pakistan instead of matching India bullet for bullet, has taken the smart route and is buying weapons needed to pin down Indian Armed Forces. These weapons cannot win the war for PA but are enough to halt IA advance for long enough and make victory a very expensive proposition.

But coming back to the topic, the question is how much losses is IA willing to take and what is going to be done about the N scenario? For India to effectively disband PA, she will need to fight it out with PA and a skirmish won't do. She will have to engage PA in battles of annihiliation and effectively destroy its Command and Control along with her Armour. Proxy War just won't do, its good to harass the enemy but not enough to destroy the enemy. What happened in Libya does not apply here due to different circumstances. As far as diplomatic campaign goes, lets be honest here. At best sanctions can slow down the modernization process of PA but not destroy it. So the conclusion that i arrive at is, IA will need to engage PA to disband it and make it a Paramilitary Force.
 
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Thank You Joe Saab, Capt Popeye and Krait for your posts

I want to expand on the claim made by vsdoc, that the disbanding of PA is the ultimate aim of India on which work has already began. The question is, how does India achieve this? Does it achieve this through a military strike, a prolonge diplomatic campaign or a mix of both.

I agree with with Joe Saab that looking at the balance of power between both the Armies, a Drawn War is the most likely outcome. Pakistan instead of matching India bullet for bullet, has taken the smart route and is buying weapons needed to pin down Indian Armed Forces. These weapons cannot win the war for PA but are enough to halt IA advance for long enough and make victory a very expensive proposition.

But coming back to the topic, the question is how much losses is IA willing to take and what is going to be done about the N scenario? For India to effectively disband PA, she will need to fight it out with PA and a skirmish won't do. She will have to engage PA in battles of annihiliation and effectively destroy its Command and Control along with her Armour. Proxy War just won't do, its good to harass the enemy but not enough to destroy the enemy. What happened in Libya does not apply here due to different circumstances. As far as diplomatic campaign goes, lets be honest here. At best sanctions can slow down the modernization process of PA but not destroy it. So the conclusion that i arrive at is, IA will need to engage PA to disband it and make it a Paramilitary Force.

That is an interesting POV above.

Most of all, some basics (IMO) need to be clarified. The concept of an all-out war between India and Pakistan resulting in defeat and capitulation (or even dissolution) of one side (like WW2) is an just an impossibility. Therefore it stands to reason that it is not (or cannot) be an intention of planners on either side. There has been a lot of talk (hot gases actually) that it was thought of in 1971. And certain (interested and affected) quarters feverishly peddled that idea. Which intellectually-challenged people swallowed.

If it was not done then, it cannot be done now is how I view it. Actually its in India's interests (which Indira Gandhi knew very well) not to let that happen.
 
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Does Pakistan armed forces spend its defence budget in analysing these stupid hypothetical and nonsensical scenarios?

Thank You Joe Saab, Capt Popeye and Krait for your posts

I want to expand on the claim made by vsdoc, that the disbanding of PA is the ultimate aim of India on which work has already began. The question is, how does India achieve this? Does it achieve this through a military strike, a prolonge diplomatic campaign or a mix of both.

I agree with with Joe Saab that looking at the balance of power between both the Armies, a Drawn War is the most likely outcome. Pakistan instead of matching India bullet for bullet, has taken the smart route and is buying weapons needed to pin down Indian Armed Forces. These weapons cannot win the war for PA but are enough to halt IA advance for long enough and make victory a very expensive proposition.

But coming back to the topic, the question is how much losses is IA willing to take and what is going to be done about the N scenario? For India to effectively disband PA, she will need to fight it out with PA and a skirmish won't do. She will have to engage PA in battles of annihiliation and effectively destroy its Command and Control along with her Armour. Proxy War just won't do, its good to harass the enemy but not enough to destroy the enemy. What happened in Libya does not apply here due to different circumstances. As far as diplomatic campaign goes, lets be honest here. At best sanctions can slow down the modernization process of PA but not destroy it. So the conclusion that i arrive at is, IA will need to engage PA to disband it and make it a Paramilitary Force.
 
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Does Pakistan armed forces spend its defence budget in analysing these stupid hypothetical and nonsensical scenarios?

Your fellow countrymen vsdoc raised this idea, i merely expanded on it. Best to do some research before you open your mouth. If you can't anything productive, your welcome to Sh** Up :)
 
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Thank You Joe Saab, Capt Popeye and Krait for your posts

I want to expand on the claim made by vsdoc, that the disbanding of PA is the ultimate aim of India on which work has already began. The question is, how does India achieve this? Does it achieve this through a military strike, a prolonge diplomatic campaign or a mix of both.

I agree with with Joe Saab that looking at the balance of power between both the Armies, a Drawn War is the most likely outcome. Pakistan instead of matching India bullet for bullet, has taken the smart route and is buying weapons needed to pin down Indian Armed Forces. These weapons cannot win the war for PA but are enough to halt IA advance for long enough and make victory a very expensive proposition.

But coming back to the topic, the question is how much losses is IA willing to take and what is going to be done about the N scenario? For India to effectively disband PA, she will need to fight it out with PA and a skirmish won't do. She will have to engage PA in battles of annihiliation and effectively destroy its Command and Control along with her Armour. Proxy War just won't do, its good to harass the enemy but not enough to destroy the enemy. What happened in Libya does not apply here due to different circumstances. As far as diplomatic campaign goes, lets be honest here. At best sanctions can slow down the modernization process of PA but not destroy it. So the conclusion that i arrive at is, IA will need to engage PA to disband it and make it a Paramilitary Force.

Eliminating a force that is fighting on the defensive is the most painfully drawn out and underrated of tasks. Unless an army is outflanked and cut off from it's supply lines and essentially engaged before it can organize (in a sort of blitzkrieg), only then can an adversary hope to eliminate a fully functional force. To partake in a rapid attack that catches the PA off guard and then to drive home the advantage of confusion and fear, requires the kind of resources the Indian military machine does not have. In reality, no one other than the American juggernaut can pull such an adventure off, or at least someone who has the blessing and unyielding support of the said power, as is the case with Israel.

Now, even if the Indian military can't necessarily eliminate the PA; any war fought on the defensive can and will cause irreparable damage to the land and people that will leave scars far greater than any bullet wound ever could. So while we can find solace in our ability to survive an Indian onslaught, it would be at a cost that would massively set us back as a nation. Since we are assuming worst case scenarios, and that is the only way the Indo-Pak theater goes hot again on that scale, then mere survival is paramount and can be deemed a success.

Consequently, I don't expect anyone in the Indian leadership expects to succeed, in the near future, in completely obliterating the Pakistani military into oblivion. But I think that realization is more dangerous to us than anything. An India that endlessly pours funds into conventional military projects that would have only a marginal affect in relation to Pakistan, is far less dangerous than one that supports internal strife. I agree that proxy wars can never really cause the downfall of a nation, but have the capability to help provide the spark that lights a room full of gas.

In conventional terms, we have reached a status quo that is unlikely to change anytime soon. The Indian military is strong, but not strong enough to eliminate the Pakistani threat once and for all; while the Pakistani military is formidable enough to use its limited resources of land and material to hold off an Indian invasion. This scenario does not account for the factor of time, for that is very crucial in any real conflict. A longer war of attrition generally favors India, while a quick and intense conflict provides Pakistan the greatest opportunity to blunt the Indian attack literally and, most importantly, psychologically.

The nuclear option will most likely prevent either side from engaging in a full scale conflict. While, it is easy enough for us to think that using such a destructive weapon would be unimaginable; for those who have their fingers on the trigger, it is a genuine war time weapon that has operational guidelines. Nuclear weapons have been used before and until they remain under the control of humanity which is a victim to emotions, they will always be a very real threat...remember, it takes only one man to start a chain reaction. For that reason alone, I'd like to think warmongers from both sides of the border will be drowned out by more rational voices.
 
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NE; now taking it further:

I hope all of us (in the light of what has been stated so far) will be able to understand that India does not either intend to or plan to eliminate Pakistan. As I stated, it is not in India's interests to do so assuming that India can create the ability to do so. Actually India needs Pakistan to exist as a buffer. Even the apocryphal idea that India will annex Pakistan is meaningless, because this is not desired or desirable on either side; this not a Germany or Korea like situation. Hopefully we can put these notions out of the way then. Though some idiots will continue to propagate that idea and some bigger idiots will believe them.

Among other points, Pfpilot made one that is crucial and worthy of great thought.
"An India that endlessly pours funds into conventional military projects that would have only a marginal affect in relation to Pakistan, is far less dangerous than one that supports internal strife. I agree that proxy wars can never really cause the downfall of a nation, but have the capability to help provide the spark that lights a room full of gas."
I believe that Pakistan has that room full of gas now, where can the spark come from?
That is a thought.
 
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The complete assumption of creating an existential threat to either the PA or the Pakistani state is not in the interests of the Indian state. For two reasons. This is the military standing between the bums in the western sector of Pakistan and acts as a buffer to India. The second one is not defeating the PA in all out war, but, degrading its ability to carry out operations through non-military means. This could be opting for a support to nationalistic movements.

Degrading of abilities can also mean, removing the will to wage war, because of incentives for not going to war. This though will be civilian pushed and will be a long drawn out process spread over 15 20 years.
 
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NE; now taking it further:

I hope all of us (in the light of what has been stated so far) will be able to understand that India does not either intend to or plan to eliminate Pakistan. As I stated, it is not in India's interests to do so assuming that India can create the ability to do so. Actually India needs Pakistan to exist as a buffer. Even the apocryphal idea that India will annex Pakistan is meaningless, because this is not desired or desirable on either side; this not a Germany or Korea like situation. Hopefully we can put these notions out of the way then. Though some idiots will continue to propagate that idea and some bigger idiots will believe them.

Among other points, Pfpilot made one that is crucial and worthy of great thought.
"An India that endlessly pours funds into conventional military projects that would have only a marginal affect in relation to Pakistan, is far less dangerous than one that supports internal strife. I agree that proxy wars can never really cause the downfall of a nation, but have the capability to help provide the spark that lights a room full of gas."
I believe that Pakistan has that room full of gas now, where can the spark come from?
That is a thought.

Buffer against what?
 
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India's strategy is very clear, we want to live peacefully and avoid war as much as we can. Some people ask us why we have not done surgical strikes etc.
The answer if you ask any India military planner is same. What is your objective which you want to achieve? We felt that surgical strikes will not get us anything. We just cannot go for war to prove someone that we can do it.
Now what Pakistanis do not realize what we achieved without going to war.
Has the terrorism reduced, the answer is big yes. Do you think it is just luck or coincidence. The answer is no. We diplomatically got what we wanted, Pakistan reduced its active support for militants.

Results matter and if we can do without war why go for it.
So get the hang of it, get the reality.

While I like VS Doc, this time he is making no sense. War should only be used as last resort, there is no need for war when we are getting what we need.
 
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Thank You Joe Saab, Capt Popeye and Krait for your posts

I want to expand on the claim made by vsdoc, that the disbanding of PA is the ultimate aim of India on which work has already began. The question is, how does India achieve this? Does it achieve this through a military strike, a prolonge diplomatic campaign or a mix of both.

I agree with with Joe Saab that looking at the balance of power between both the Armies, a Drawn War is the most likely outcome. Pakistan instead of matching India bullet for bullet, has taken the smart route and is buying weapons needed to pin down Indian Armed Forces. These weapons cannot win the war for PA but are enough to halt IA advance for long enough and make victory a very expensive proposition.

But coming back to the topic, the question is how much losses is IA willing to take and what is going to be done about the N scenario? For India to effectively disband PA, she will need to fight it out with PA and a skirmish won't do. She will have to engage PA in battles of annihiliation and effectively destroy its Command and Control along with her Armour. Proxy War just won't do, its good to harass the enemy but not enough to destroy the enemy. What happened in Libya does not apply here due to different circumstances. As far as diplomatic campaign goes, lets be honest here. At best sanctions can slow down the modernization process of PA but not destroy it. So the conclusion that i arrive at is, IA will need to engage PA to disband it and make it a Paramilitary Force.

I'm not sure what this discussion on all out war is? An exercise in mental gymnastics? The presence of nuclear weapons precludes any all out war. That however does not mean that any & all conflicts can be ruled out. A future conflict may actually involve more use of air & naval power where India is at a distinct advantage with skirmishes on the ground.

vsdoc's reference to taking a city, while being smirked at here is not completely without basis. Indian planners have toyed with the idea of seizing chunks of Pakistani territory for use in negotiations with Pakistan. Skardu was the one most talked about, to be held by a large number of paratroopers. Whether it was a real consideration or a psychological ploy is not known. Regardless, it's one more variable that Pakistani military planners have to take on board.

A future conflict may happen, either in the face of a severe terrorist provocation ( I tend to discount pressure in Kashmir being the reason, firstly because Kashmir has been so damped down that it's highly unlikely that it will explode in such a manner as to actually result in India starting a war with Pakistan. Also foolish because with that kind of pressure, you do not want to open a major front. Possible but unlikely.) or a direct Pakistani attack (again unlikely after Kargil but possible if pressure within Pakistan becomes unbearable and a diversion is deemed necessary). A conflict on first grounds will most likely only happen when India believes that it has technology in place which reduces the risk that Pakistani missiles pose. If and when that technological edge surfaces, that is when the risk for conflict looms greatest. Otherwise, there are far better, cheaper ways of dealing with Pakistan than what could be achieved by open conflict.

An India that endlessly pours funds into conventional military projects that would have only a marginal affect in relation to Pakistan, is far less dangerous than one that supports internal strife. I agree that proxy wars can never really cause the downfall of a nation, but have the capability to help provide the spark that lights a room full of gas.

Actually both can be done simultaneously. Use the conventional build up to make Pakistan put in necessary funds for countering it thereby reducing Pakistan's ability to concentrate on fire fighting within, since funds for developmental activities (part of what is necessary for fire fighting)are being uses to counter India's growing strength. It would be prudent for Indian planners to opt for a two pronged approach rather than only rely on a single type of pressure lever.
 
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Such a stupid article. De-nuking campaign? Are you kidding me? How exactly do you de-nuke a country? You will have to destroy all resistance from the army , then search for the nukes in secret locations. Nukes are stored in secret locations and no one knows the exact number of them. Although estimates suggest that PAK has 90-110 nukes , I would be the least surprised if the real number is more like 300. Same for India. No country lets out secrets like that. So this whole de-nuking campaign is just a BS story to arouse the population and create more hatred. Obviously US and India would prefer Pakistan without nukes , but none of them is trying to de-nuke it.

The only way to de-nuke a country is to nuke it several times and destroy everything.
 
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No worries at all Sir

Take your time, i am excited to explore more about this topic.


Yesterday was a day full of unexpected physical exertion, and I found myself asleep in the middle of all this exchanging of notes.

What I had presented earlier was an undesirable war scenario. India would infinitely prefer a non-war scenario, for obvious reasons. It is the more economical strategy, from the point of view of

  1. military casualties,
  2. civilian casualties,
  3. loss of trained manpower,
  4. expenditure of ammunition and
  5. destruction of military resources,
  6. consumption of fuel and related consumables at an operational rate rather than a peacetime rate,
  7. dislocation of civilian activities,
  8. loss of production,
  9. loss of export earnings due to transport dislocation,
  10. financial outlay.

Assuming for a moment that neither of the two possible causes of war becomes reality, what do we have? Is the VSDOC Doctrine tenable? Is there a long-term penalty in maintaining their military at such a pitch of technical contemporaneity, excessive numbers and heightened state of preparedness? Can Pakistan sustain it? If not, what are the likely outcomes?

We see certain gloomy portents for both sides, but portents which are likely to hang heavier over one side rather than the other.

Taking the cost of maintaining technical equivalence, first.

TO BE CONTINUED
 
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CONT.

From the 1960s onwards, Pakistan has actually been better equipped than India in every respect, but most prominently in the air, and on ground, with respect to artillery, perhaps even armour, other than the navy.This was possible because of the benevolence of the US, which was pleased with the attentive readiness with which its directions were carried out, until the fateful days of the bombing back to the stone age warning. Even after that, some huge figures have been spent by the US ostensibly on the Pakistani military, of which some portion may have actually reached the military. Can this continue, into a future without America, or rather, without America pressing its most generous gifts into Pakistan's hands?

To some extent, not to the earlier fulsome manner, but a limited amount, yes, it is possible to keep some semblance of equivalence. There seem to be products coming out of China which may offer three distinct options: most unlikely, a technical cutting edge; most likely, a pronounced economic advantage, and most desirable, but not easy to guarantee, a combination of technology and economic pricing. There is also the Russian factor. As India becomes apathetic to the Russian option, largely due to becoming inured to the Russian tactics of financial blackmail on military projects, Russia will naturally seek to take France's position as even-handed dealer out of deadly devices.

Without elaborating further, one would also see rapidly advancing sources of military R&D such as Turkey and Iran providing weapons systems to Pakistan, provided that she can carry off her Islamic balancing act between Iran and Saudi Arabia. And finally, it is unwise to overlook the effects of shiny, new sets of screwdrivers. Miracles cannot be ruled out, by their very nature, they may appear where - and when - least expected.

What is then the prognosis (sorry, Doc)?

It seems likeliest that the Pakistani military will lose its earlier sharp differences and advantage over India in terms of technology. The earlier guarantee of better technology will now become a possibility of new technology being really available in fits and starts, in an unexpected manner. China will certainly continue to offer her top weapons systems, but it appears increasingly certain that these offers will not be entirely at throw-away prices; rather, they will be closer to market pricing.

It seems likely that this will not happen overnight, and for the first years (behind us), we will witness quiet and understated shifts to maintenance of numbers with whatever is affordable. There is no point on dilating on this and inviting the attention of the rabid patriots of all flags.

To sum up, the military will opt for numbers as they are gradually distanced from buying numbers of the best.

TO BE CONTINUED: THE ECONOMIC COSTS OF NOT CONDUCTING WAR
 
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Your Islamophobe thread proved to me how cunning you are.

I had seen it before and was reluctant to comment in it because I knew the inevitable course of any thread here related to Islam. I only commented because vsdoc specifically asked me, and to give the benefit of the doubt. However, the thread has degenerated as I feared.
 
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