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The Eagle and the Dragon - The Roman and Chinese Empire

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I think both developed in a way that was predetermined by our geography.

Han Empire in China was as you said build around a largely monolithic society, while our empire was build around the italian center empire spanning across vast lands of different tribes.

The italian central culture was used as glue to make celts work together with egyptians and iberians for example.

I find those contacts between china and rome so interesting because for both empires its the only way to get an outside look on themself, bot were sourounded from barbarians and that means a belt of silence around them.

See that is the common misconception of Han China. The Zhou dynasty was very small at its birth. 800 years of warring and tribes joining the dynasty has actually divided the identity of its people. By the time Qin finally reunited China under one banner, and Han took over some decades later, China was in no way monolithic. It was so divided that people didn't even use the Han dynasty to identify oneself until much later, instead they used their kingdom name.

By the time of its fourth emperor, emperor Wu of Han, he conquered even more land and the diversity got worse.

What ultimately happened was that, China reunited time and time again, that by the time of the Song, there is a bit of an Han identity. By the time it got to Qing, the Manchus grouped all non Manchus together and while bad and discriminatory in the short term, long term it actually cemented a unified identity.

For comparison, Northern and Southern, as well as other parts of China actually have different features in the same way French and British as well as Italians have different features.

Had the Roman empire not been completely lost, and made it into the age of nationalism, I'm sure you would have a single identity as well.

Of course this is over simplified version of events, to fully explore it, I need to probably write several books. But I'm not a writer, so here we are.
 
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See that is the common misconception of Han China. The Zhou dynasty was very small at its birth. 800 years of warring and tribes joining the dynasty has actually divided the identity of its people. By the time Qin finally reunited China under one banner, and Han took over some decades later, China was in no way monolithic. It was so divided that people didn't even use the Han dynasty to identify oneself until much later, instead they used their kingdom name.

By the time of its fourth emperor, emperor Wu of Han, he conquered even more land and the diversity got worse.

What ultimately happened was that, China reunited time and time again, that by the time of the Song, there is a bit of an Han identity. By the time it got to Qing, the Manchus grouped all non Manchus together and while bad and discriminatory in the short term, long term it actually cemented a unified identity.

For comparison, Northern and Southern, as well as other parts of China actually have different features in the same way French and British as well as Italians have different features.

Had the Roman empire not been completely lost, and made it into the age of nationalism, I'm sure you would have a single identity as well.

Of course this is over simplified version of events, to fully explore it, I need to probably write several books. But I'm not a writer, so here we are.


Thank you for teaching me chinese history. Unfortuately we learn not much about it here.

But Rome made it into the modern world. It transformed into the roman catholic church. Even the emperor is still present as the pontifex maximus.

Its hard for me to admitt...because its my religion but alot of italias beauty and came from money pumped into rome through the Vatican.
 
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The Romans basically copied their way to an empire.

Infantry tactics, Latin alphabet, mythology, art and architecture copied from Greece.

Heavy cavalry and expertise in horses copied from Persia.

Navy copied from Carthage.

Shameless theft of obelisks from Egypt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_obelisks_in_Rome

And this is the origin of Western civilization? Pretty sad. :)
 
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The Romans basically copied their way to an empire.

Infantry tactics, Latin alphabet, mythology, art and architecture copied from Greece.

Heavy cavalry and expertise in horses copied from Persia.

Navy copied from Carthage.

Shameless theft of obelisks from Egypt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_obelisks_in_Rome

And this is the origin of Western civilization? Pretty sad. :)

No, its the pinnacle of civilisation. Using the best and dropping worthless stuff.

Also how can rome "copy" something from greece when its origins were greece?

Rome created a culture that glued others into it. Similar to USA today.

As for the Obelisks, we conquered egypt and made it our land. We saw those Obelisks as pretty. I think you agree that the ruler of an empire has the law on his side to bring beautiful things to his capital.

Dont forget, there was no egypt anymore.

The old Pharaos:

egpytian_museum_cairo_2004.jpg


ended with Cleopatra VII (who was greek herself) and the new ruler of egypt was our emperor. Our emperors had the title of Pharao in egypt and when there also dressed like one:

tumblr_inline_nqoyzv5azq1r1g36d_500.jpg
 
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man that thing is cool!

Can one keep it as pet? Its like a bunny with short ears :D




I don't know about india. Do you have informations about roman / indian relations?

Don't Know about Romans but greeks Yes We have common history there Some Greek genetic within our Population of India,Afghanistan,Pakistan others

Maurya_Empire%2C_c.250_BCE_2.png


The Indians occupy in part some of the countries situated along the Indus, which formerly belonged to the Persians: Alexander deprived the Ariani of them, and established there settlements of his own. But Seleucus Nicator gave them to Sandrocottus in consequence of a marriage contract, and received in return five hundred elephants.

— Strabo 15.2.1(9
Also several Greeks, such as the historian Megasthenes,[13] followed by Deimachus and Dionysius, were sent to reside at the Mauryan court.[14] Presents continued to be exchanged between the two rulers.[15] The intensity of these contacts is testified by the existence of a dedicated Mauryan state department for Greek (Yavana) and Persian foreigners,[16] or the remains of Hellenistic pottery that can be found throughout northern India.[17]

AsokaKandahar.jpg

Bilingual edict (Greek and Aramaic) by king Ashoka, from Kandahar. Kabul Museum (click image for translation).[18]
On these occasions, Greek populations apparently remained in the northwest of the Indian subcontinent under Mauryan rule. Chandragupta's grandson Ashoka, who had converted to the Buddhist faith declared in the Edicts of Ashoka, set in stone, some of them written in Greek,[19][20] that Greek populations within his realm also had converted to Buddhism:[21]

Here in the king's domain among the Greeks

Indo-Greeks_100bc.jpg


According to the Mahavamsa, the Great Stupa in Anuradhapura, Sri Lanka, was dedicated by a 30,000-strong "Yona" (Greek) delegation from "Alexandria" around 130 BCE.
800px-Ruvanvelisaya_Dagoba.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurya_Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom

There religion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism

800px-MenandrosCoin.jpg

Menander I, the "Saviour king", seems to have converted to Buddhism, and is described in Buddhist texts as a great benefactor of the religion, on a par with Ashoka or the future Kushan emperor Kanishka. He is famous for his dialogues with the Buddhist monk Nagasena, transmitted to us in the Milinda Panha, which explain that he became a Buddhist arhat:

"And afterwards, taking delight in the wisdom of the Elder, he (Menander) handed over his kingdom to his son, and abandoning the household life for the house-less state, grew great in insight, and himself attained to Arahatship!"

— The Questions of King Milinda, Translation by T. W. Rhys Davids.
 
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I´m italian. We are the sons of the empire. Our capital is Roma. Our blood is roman. This topic is neither about Saxons...

Are there any evidence that the average modern Italians share the same genes as the ancient Romans living 2000 years ago?
 
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Caesars used Italian?
Sorry, I know little about roman culture. :frown:
I mean, what we learn on our Chinese textbook is those poems and essays written in classical Chinese centuries before BC.
Today, we directly use those classical poems, words and phrases very frequently in our everyday life.

Correct. Chinese can read poems, scrolls, books from 2000 years ago and the meaning of the words have not changed. Whereas, English (offshoot of Latin) people will not understand what the people wrote even 500 years ago. An example is Shakespeare, very few people understand it because the language have changed so much.
 
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No indian Empire :(

There were many empires in Indian subcontinent. But since India was a geographical expression until British create it. If someone invade Europe, impose a language on it and create a colony call Europe. If it gain independent and become a nation call Europe, that would be exactly how India come to being.
 
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Italian is the modern version of latin.

Its hard to explain, but i try too, when i as an italian, see latin texts or hear someone speak latin, i can understand it. It just sounds strange, because its a little bit different. Like another dialect.

Unfortunately i dont know anything about chinese language to give you an example from your culture thats similar.

We read Caesars books in their original lation version.

Markus, can you give me some information about the relation between today Italian and the ancient Roman? I read from somewhere that today Italian is not even the descendant of Roman, but come from the north (Germanic maybe?). Now, the question is, Are they the descendant or not. If not, where is the descendant of Roman Ethic now? Where are they?
 
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Markus, can you give me some information about the relation between today Italian and the ancient Roman? I read from somewhere that today Italian is not even the descendant of Roman, but come from the north (Germanic maybe?). Now, the question is, Are they the descendant or not. If not, where is the descendant of Roman Ethic now? Where are they?

Most of the people living in Italy today are likely descendants of the same people who considered themselves Roman at the fall of the Western Empire. It's not like the Ostrogoths slaughtered en masse and salted the earth. They wanted to rule, not create a wasteland.

The Roman empire without a doubt fell, but I'd say its spirit is one of the core 'glues' of western civilization along with the Greek city-states. In that respect I'd say its legacy lives on in spirit.

As for more in general, i've been interested in how the Chinese and Romans viewed each other. They would have been so far removed from each other at the time that they would have never seen each other as competitors or threats.

Its really too bad their contact was so brief.
 
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Are there any evidence that the average modern Italians share the same genes as the ancient Romans living 2000 years ago?

yes, genetic tests done on scelettons performed show there is little to no difference to today population. Fun fact was, that the different regions could even be traced back genetically to pre roman tribes, be it etruscians or sabiner.

There never was a large scale settlement from foreigners into the italian peninsula. Even under langobard rulership genetic rsearch showed there was almost zero genetic trace from this.

Its also clear why, italy is isolated by the alps mountains from the rest of europe. It was simply impossible to bring large amounts of people there over the mountains.

Markus, can you give me some information about the relation between today Italian and the ancient Roman? I read from somewhere that today Italian is not even the descendant of Roman, but come from the north (Germanic maybe?). Now, the question is, Are they the descendant or not. If not, where is the descendant of Roman Ethic now? Where are they?

wrong, we are the same as always. im right here bro :D

"in 2008, Dutch geneticists determined that Italy is one of the last two remaining genetic islands in Europe (the other being Finland.) This is due in part to the presence of the Alpine mountain chain which, over the centuries, has prevented large migration flows aimed at colonizing the Italian lands.[2]

  • A 2013 study by Peristera Paschou et al. confirms that the Mediterranean Sea has acted as a strong barrier to gene flow through geographic isolation following initial settlements. Samples from (Northern) Italy, Tuscany, Sicily and Sardinia are closest to other Southern Europeans from Iberia, the Balkans and Greece, who are in turn closest to the Neolithic migrants that spread farming throughout Europe, represented here by the Cappadocian sample from Anatolia. But there hasn't been any significant admixture from the Middle East or North Africa into Italy and the rest of Southern Europe since then.[38]
So genetics show we didnt change much and are genetically the same since neolithic era.
 
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There were many empires in Indian subcontinent. But since India was a geographical expression until British create it. If someone invade Europe, impose a language on it and create a colony call Europe. If it gain independent and become a nation call Europe, that would be exactly how India come to being.
India has name in english since english was was British

India has many names in persions hindustan
Sumerian or Arabs al hind

Rigveda call it jumbudeewpa and Kautilya arthasastra call it Aryavarta

And for last Official name india in hindi Bharat ganrajya

So buzz off
 
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