The biggest shocker of the MMRCA......

[foxbat]

cos PAF will get the same planes in the future. and they are using that plane for more than 30 years, that means that they know how that plane handles,its advantages and weakness, which means there is a possibility that they can kick our f -16 ***...

I think thats over hyped. I mean the 2 are versions are years apart. Most of the PAF fleet is F 16 block 15 or something upgraded to a supposedly 52 standard and 18 blk 52. May be they will buy another 18 of blk 52s. As against 150 or so blk 70. I mean familiarity is all good, but put even schumacher in an old Maruti 800 and give me a brand new SX4 or Grand Vitara, and I am sure to kick his a$$.

 

[dbc]

Usually, all the American fighters comes with strings which end-users don't like.

A random selection of examples:

Malaysia and the F/A-18: Mahathir Mohammad on F/A-18s & the US:

YouTube - Mahathir - Bombing Singapore

Brazils experiences with US ITAR et al.

Brazilian brigadier bashes US defense export policies on YouTube - The DEW Line

UK (and others) tough issues with JSF technology transfer:

UK Leads Growing Backlash Against JSF

ITAR Fallout: Britain to Pull Out of F-35 JSF Program?

Apples and oranges, 90% of the funding and technology contribution on the F-35 is American. The British expect to walk away with the technology for the chump change they're contributing?

As for the Indian MMRCA, all participating vendors are fully aware of the ToT requirements from the outset and yet all of them are in the competition which can only mean that all participating vendors are confident they can meet IAF's expectations for ToT.

 

[Stalker]

I dont think at all that IAF will go for f-16s...

And why do you think so? In which aspect F-16 fails?

 

[ganimi kawa]

Apples and oranges, 90% of the funding and technology contribution on the F-35 is American. The British expect to walk away with the technology for the chump change they're contributing?

As for the Indian MMRCA, all participating vendors are fully aware of the ToT requirements from the outset and yet all of them are in the competition which can only mean that all participating vendors are confident they can meet IAF's expectations for ToT.

ToT in India is a very fluid concept. Putting rivets,manufacturing avionics or transferring source codes all of them are treated as equivalents while assessing ToT.
LM and Boeing know this and that's why they're confident about ToT. They will tranfer what we call a " screw driver " technology. (nothing critical just something to make up the percentage!)

And yes, we also want the technology for the "chump change " we're giving! What applies
to british certainly applies to us!

 

[indiaworldpower]

Looks like a bunch of jokers are sitting in MoD..
A single engine air craft is way different characterstically than twin engine air craft. Both of them offer differnt roles but with partial overlap. Twin engine air crafts are mostly air superioty fighters while single engine ones are dog fighters. Comparing them two is like apple and oranges.

What if you care about only fruit to eat no matter which is it?

 

[dbc]

ToT in India is a very fluid concept. Putting rivets,manufacturing avionics or transferring source codes all of them are treated
as equivalents while assessing ToT. LM and Boeing know this and that's why they're confident about ToT. They will tranfer what we call a " screw driver " technology. (nothing critical just something to make up the percentage!)

AFAIK, the IAF has specific ToT requirements I doubt a "screw driver" will qualify. Again, I think many lack a clear understanding of ToT. Do not expect to transfer acquired ToT to other projects such as LCA or AMCA or FGFA without vendor approval and participation. ToT in all cases implies transfer of production technology allowing a local subsidiary or partner the ability to produce the needed components and assemble the final product.

 

[saurabh]

AFAIK, the IAF has specific ToT requirements I doubt a "screw driver" will qualify. Again, I think many lack a clear understanding of ToT. Do not expect to transfer acquired ToT to other projects such as LCA or AMCA or FGFA without vendor approval and participation. ToT in all cases implies transfer of production technology allowing a local subsidiary or partner the ability to produce the needed components and assemble the final product.

The original purpose for this ToT requirement is to help indigenous developments. So if the knowledge gained cannot be applied to other project, than whats its use?!

 

[Trisonics]

Here is a snippet from the F-16IN page

India’s partnership with Lockheed Martin can provide access to the highest technology, opportunities for technology co-development, low-risk licensed production, transfer of technology, and opportunities for extensive long-term business. The Super Viper facilitates a key strategic partnership with the United States and the U.S. Air Force including joint training, logistical and operational concepts.

F-16IN Super Viper | Lockheed Martin

It will not be that bad a deal if we got TOT, Co-development....Also, something to remember is the F-35. Maybe...we get a 126 F16s? and 25-50 F-35 in stages?

That according to me does not look like a bad deal at all, if at all possible

 

[ganimi kawa]

AFAIK, the IAF has specific ToT requirements I doubt a "screw driver" will qualify. Again, I think many lack a clear understanding of ToT. Do not expect to transfer acquired ToT to other projects such as LCA or AMCA or FGFA without vendor approval and participation. ToT in all cases implies transfer of production technology allowing a local subsidiary or partner the ability to produce the needed components and assemble the final product.

Sadly, the IAF does not have the final say in this. The authorities whose job is to verify whether a company has fulfilled such obligations have shown great incompetence in the past. e.g. T90 ToT story. I can give you many such examples.

And yes, I don't know what "many" think about ToT, but I for one do not have any delusions. If you can't use a technology in other projects then its not a transfer. With some restrictions the tech transferred can be applied elsewhere.

About the second highlighted part ---Production tech only is something more congruous with "offset" policy than ToT!

 

[foxbat]

The original purpose for this ToT requirement is to help indigenous developments. So if the knowledge gained cannot be applied to other project, than whats its use?!

Not indigenous development but indigenous production and offsets. Something that we are doing with Su 30 and what Pakistan is doing with JF 17

 

[dbc]

The original purpose for this ToT requirement is to help indigenous developments. So if the knowledge gained cannot be applied to other project, than whats its use?!

ToT does not include IP (intellectual property), it is unreasonable to except participating vendors to part with IP for the value of the MMRCA tender. Firms like LM, Boeing and Dassault have likely spent many times that amount over several years acquiring the capability.

 

[anathema]

I think thats over hyped. I mean the 2 are versions are years apart. Most of the PAF fleet is F 16 block 15 or something upgraded to a supposedly 52 standard and 18 blk 52. May be they will buy another 18 of blk 52s. As against 150 or so blk 70. I mean familiarity is all good, but put even schumacher in an old Maruti 800 and give me a brand new SX4 or Grand Vitara, and I am sure to kick his a$$.

You got your example wrong. Put Schumacher in Maruti-800 and put your self in a Maruti-alto or Maruti-Zen -- Schumi might still kick your ***.
The difference between blck 52 and blck 60 (desert falcon) is essentially avionics. The ride quality or handling characteristics that define a fighter essentially is the same. So PAF with its vast experience on F16 will give IAF a run for its money if war were to break out in a couple of years after induction.

Point is F16 is just a bad choice ! We deserve better after a decade of MRCA drama.

 

[graphican]

Guys,

If this news is true, that indicates LCA is out of IAF's Interest. When they know their single engine program is underway and they are still considering single engine fighters as an option for much valued MMRCA.. this implies something.

 

[foxbat]

Guys,

If this news is true, that indicates LCA is out of IAF's Interest. When they know their single engine program is underway and they are still considering single engine fighters as an option for much valued MMRCA.. this implies something.

From the same site

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: IAF To Order More Tejas Mk-1s

 

[gurjot]

From the same site

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: IAF To Order More Tejas Mk-1s

means twin engine!!!!!!!