The Big 'Make In India' Submarine Hunt 3.0

[SpArK]

The first step towards dedicated warship designing center is already behind schedule in a loooong way.

Defence shipbuilding R&D project on the slow track - The Hindu


German 212s and Scorpene mix is deadly.

 

[Kinetic]

Go for Indian design and build submarine.

ToT is a joke...... what we did with the ToT we got for Scorpene????

Thats extremely huge amount of money, don't want to give it to some foreign country.

 

[HariPrasad]

I was a rookie reporter nine years ago in October 2005 when, in the main ceremonial room of the Indian MoD, then Defence Secretary Shekhar Dutt and then Ambassador of France, the tempestuous Dominique Girard, signed the Indian government's contract for six Scorpene submarines. I had spent just over a year on the defence beat at The Indian Express. The P75 submarine build programme was one of the biggest developing stories at the time. It would be the new UPA government's first defence deal, and the Indian Navy was desperate for an early conclusion. Only two weeks before the signing at the MoD, I and a small group of other reporters were huddled in a small conference room at Delhi's Hyatt Hotel receiving a briefing from Germany's HDW on the Class 214 submarine. We were only journalists, but it was a final effort to pitch the U-boat as a better product than the French offering that would defeat it less than 14 days later.

Nearly a decade later, the Germans are back in the race. Presumably. (No maker of submarines has officially declared interest in the P75I competition since it was cleared for a 'Make in India' route earlier this month.) Cleared of corruption allegations in the Shishumar-class build programme, the Germans still smart at how they lost the 2005 deal. And they'll be competing to make good. But, in every way -- every possible way -- the P75I programme is likely to be more complicated, contentious and competitive than its predecessor. The Class 214, which squared off against the Scorpene in the final race the last time, could face at least four worthy competitors this time. All come with their own technical, capability-centric and political pros and cons:

AMUR 1650 (RUSSIA)

NAVANTIA S-80 CLASS (SPAIN)

MHI SŌRYŪ-CLASS (JAPAN)

DCNS SCORPENE+ (FRANCE)

SAAB KOCKUMS GOTLAND CLASS (SWEDEN)

All six submarines will be built in India at an Indian shipyard. By December, the MoD has committed to identifying the public and private shipyards capable of taking on such work. Apart from Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL) and L&T's shipyards (the only two currently engaged in submarine building work), the MoD will size up Cochin Shipyard Ltd, GRSE, GSL, Hindustan Shipyard Ltd (HSL) and Pipavav, among prospective others. For nostalgia,here's the original P75I request for information from years ago, which originally envisaged two submarines built by the OEM and four in an Indian shipyard.
Livefist: The Big 'Make In India' Submarine Hunt 3.0

My friends were into the building of INS Arihant at Hazira at L & T Facility. L & T has a very good knowledge in Submarine building and they may adhere to time frame as well. It is the time to move away from public sectors to private sector.

 

[MastanKhan]

Don't understand why not an indigenous design? DRDO said they've completed work on indigenous AIP system if I'm not wrong.

Hi,

You sir, are the smartest amongst all your colleagues---I pray from your mouth to God's ears---I pray that there is a DRDO design that the indian govt would want to build.----god bless all those in favor.

 

[sathya]

Hi,

You sir, are the smartest amongst all your colleagues---I pray from your mouth to God's ears---I pray that there is a DRDO design that the indian govt would want to build.----god bless all those in favor.

It took a while Delhi class destroyers and Kolkata class too...
But we are there now.. Comparing it with the best...

Subs already arihant was designed in India , scorpene manufactured in india with French technology, so technically it is not impossible for us...

 

[surya kiran]

Hi,

You sir, are the smartest amongst all your colleagues---I pray from your mouth to God's ears---I pray that there is a DRDO design that the indian govt would want to build.----god bless all those in favor.

We dont want the sub to be ready and then told, that, the propulsion system develops less power than is needed or was promised. Hence, we should go in for third party specialist consultation to fix the problem... 10 years later.

The propulsion system will then be called Ro-veri due to all the k(ol)averi engine history.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Well I am not an expert and I don't know much about submarines either but I too think indigenous design would be better if it is ready.

I think it might be a pipeline problem. There is a huge parallel pipeline on nuclear submarines going on. Maybe they want all indigenous design and production around those. Give the AIPs out to foreign companies so that it doesn't interfere with the nuke sub program.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Hi,

You sir, are the smartest amongst all your colleagues---I pray from your mouth to God's ears---I pray that there is a DRDO design that the indian govt would want to build.----god bless all those in favor.

Well, I sure hope so man

 

[sancho]

But sir aren't they going to sale their Soryu class submarine to Australia,i mean i read it in this forum that the R.A.N. has chosen the Soryu class as their next generation sub.So if they can sell their defense product to Australia then why on earth should they have any problem selling the same product to India who is after all an important strategic partner to them?? @Nihonjin1051 sir,can you please shed some light in this matter?

There are talks about offering it to Australia, which are based on the fact that Japan and Australia are US allies and have common defence aims. But still, the issue in the negotiations are still ToT and Japanese export laws and our case is far different.

Don't understand why not an indigenous design? DRDO said they've completed work on indigenous AIP system if I'm not wrong.

Don't give too much on DRDO promises, but an indigenous SSK development after the P75I would be important, but what we needed the most was a fast decision on this tender, which now is delayed again.

 

[sancho]

Wrt Australias sub procurement and the Soryu class:

 

[Guynextdoor2]

There are talks about offering it to Australia, which are based on the fact that Japan and Australia are US allies and have common defence aims. But still, the issue in the negotiations are still ToT and Japanese export laws and our case is far different.



Don't give too much on DRDO promises, but an indigenous SSK development after the P75I would be important, but what we needed the most was a fast decision on this tender, which now is delayed again.

I don't place too much importance but on the submarine front I think a lot of scaling up has happened because of the Nuke Sub Program. So when they say have AIP, thought maybe they should be more aggressive.

 

[sancho]

I don't place too much importance but on the submarine front I think a lot of scaling up has happened because of the Nuke Sub Program. So when they say have AIP, thought maybe they should be more aggressive.

That's why I also would prefer a team up between Indian public and privat companies (MDL and L&T for example) to develop an indigenous SSK, based on the experienced they gained so far. Instead of hyping the make in India policy now, only to include privat industry in the licence production of foreign subs. This scrapping and re-issuing of the tender simply makes no sense, not for fast addition of subs for IN, nor for making India self reliant in submarine building.

 

[Aepsilons]

They have issues with the US-2 sale to us, so selling and sharing one of the top defence products will not going to happen.

As far as I'm concerned, an agreement was ironed out during Modi's visit.

Japan, India agree to push for US-2 amphibian deal - IHS Jane's 360

But sir aren't they going to sale their Soryu class submarine to Australia,i mean i read it in this forum that the R.A.N. has chosen the Soryu class as their next generation sub.So if they can sell their defense product to Australia then why on earth should they have any problem selling the same product to India who is after all an important strategic partner to them?? @Nihonjin1051 sir,can you please shed some light in this matter?

There's absolutely no reason why Japan would be resistant to that, in fact, India is a likely partner. I'm sure if the Indian Government inquired about acquisition of such an asset, then Tokyo would respond positively.

 

[Hareeshu IA MBT]

How many Scorpion we are building other than 6 previously ordered . Is it possible to get another 4/6 directly from the vendor France ?

 

[sancho]

As far as I'm concerned, an agreement was ironed out during Modi's visit.

Not really, agree to push for the sale is not an agreement. Infact nothing was achived in that regard during the visit, but the more important point is, that this is the sale of an unarmed MPA and if that is so complicated, it's simply unrealistic that the government of Japan will sell India once of it's top of the notch weapon systems.

How many Scorpion we are building other than 6 previously ordered . Is it possible to get another 4/6 directly from the vendor France ?

We ordered 6 under the P75 tender, the P75I was a follow tender and was suppose to add 6 more subs 2 of them directly from the winning vendor and Scorpenes were the frontrunners. However, this tender is scrapped and reports suggests that all 6 should be produced in India now, which is most likely an economical decision again, since it's not cost-effective to build a 2nd production line for just 4 subs.