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The Battle of Plassey

Going back to lodhis and suris would be an ardous task Joe. Let's be clear with what we intend to do. I think we should limit our efforts to a time period not very broad so as not to get lost in time.

If the idea is to trace the composition of the races forming bulk of the Indian army and their main battles plus their current status, then i think we should set the battle of plassey as the starting point with 1857 as the interval and on to the second world war as the end. So, we will be covering it in two portions. From Plassey to Mutiny and then from Mutiny to the shall we say partition or second world war.


What do you say? And if we have other interested parties !

That sounds reasonable and well-bounded.

  1. The British Indian Army from 1757 to 1857, its ethnic composition and its famous battles;
  2. The British Indian Army from 1857 to 1947, its ethnic composition and its famous battles.

This is not small, however, and if we could form a team to address these, it would be nice. Also some basic rules of presentation and sources*.

* Code for NO WIKIPEDIA LIFTS; SOURCING ALLOWED, BLOCK COPY AND PASTE NOT.
 
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That sounds reasonable and well-bounded.

  1. The British Indian Army from 1757 to 1857, its ethnic composition and its famous battles;
  2. The British Indian Army from 1857 to 1947, its ethnic composition and its famous battles.

This is not small, however, and if we could form a team to address these, it would be nice. Also some basic rules of presentation and sources.

Not small indeed. Why not start with the first part first ! From 1757 to 1857. Perhaps a new thread. We can do it slowly, but we need more people for sure !
 
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Going back to lodhis and suris would be an ardous task Joe. Let's be clear with what we intend to do. I think we should limit our efforts to a time period not very broad so as not to get lost in time.

If the idea is to trace the composition of the races forming bulk of the Indian army and their main battles plus their current status, then i think we should set the battle of plassey as the starting point with 1857 as the interval and on to the second world war as the end. So, we will be covering it in two portions. From Plassey to Mutiny and then from Mutiny to the shall we say partition or second world war.


What do you say? And if we have other interested parties !

Not small indeed. Why not start with the first part first ! From 1757 to 1857. Perhaps a new thread. We can do it slowly, but we need more people for sure !

I'm up for that. I'll start with the Biharis, then, or the Hindustani, in general.
 
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Joe and Gunner please take the initiative, I'll try to contribute if time permits.
 
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Joe and Gunner please take the initiative, I'll try to contribute if time permits.

That being the general thinking, I will start with an analysis of the composition of the British Indian Army, with specific reference to the Biharis and the residents of eastern UP, from 1757 to 1857, and notes on subsequent history. My objective at this moment, my plan, as it were, is to identify each group, starting with the earliest traceable, describe some of its characteristics, and then try to highlight the earliest battle in which that group might have been involved.

Please expect the first contribution on Sunday, as I am tied up today and tomorrow. If anyone else should wish to start earlier, please go right ahead.
 
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Timing of Battle of Plassey: Ahmed Shah Abdali had attacked Delhi in 1756/57, sacked the City and killed its innocent residents. He sacked a few other cities nearby and was planning to invade Bengal. Siraj sent bulk of his troops under Raja Rajnarain to protect Sube Bangal's western border with Audh from a possible attack.During this precarious period, a farcical battle was conceived by Robert Clive and the local conspirators.

Number of Nawabi Troops: It is said the Nawab took 50,000 troops to the battle field. But, in reality he was not directly cotrolling all those troops. One knows how the chain of command is maintained in the military, specially during war time. A General cannot just overpass the superior officers and order the lower ranked commanding officers directly, because it breaks the chain of command.

Generals Mir Zafar, Yar Latif and a few Hindu Rajas were controlling about 16,000 to 18,000 troops, who were standing idle because their superiors did not order them to move. They were waiting at the flank and almost behind the main troops led by Siraj.

Battle Field Activities: Siraj was certainly aware of a duplicity. Only he was binded by his fate and he was helpless, too. He was so helpless that he had to trust Mir Zafar and believe what he promised. Mir Zafar was called in his camp. The young innocent Nawab put his Royal Turban on his feet and begged tearfully to move his troops. The crook Gaddar bowed and promised intervention after the lunchbreak.

On his words, Nawab declared a cease fire. There was no senior advisors in the Nawab camp to protest Mir Zafar. Raja Raj Narain and many other loyals were sent to face Ahmed Shah Abdali in the west. Their presence could have balanced the power of Mir Zafar in the battle field.

In order to offset a possible attack from behind/flank he had to place almost 18,000 troops that faced Mir zafar's troops. There were other groups of troops who were not engaging the enemy, but were protecting the camp of Nawab. The total number of Nawabi troops that were fighting the British were about 5,000. This number was still quite large comparing to the size of enemy.

Two Important Factors: But, two important factors contributed to the outcome of the battle. Loyal General Mir Madan received a fatal hit by a cannon ball. And during the lunch ceasefire requested by Mir Zafar, a heavy shower dampened the ammunition of Bengal army. Although the artillery was manned by a group of French gunners, they did not forsee a rain, and thus did not take with them all the sheets needed to cover them.

Opportunist Mir Zafar: Historians say that Mir Zafar wanted to side with the British only if they proved winner by their own capability, but would side with the Nawab if his troops were on the verge of winning. He was such an opportunist. But, the rainfall decided the fate of that battle.

Rainfall Decided the Fate: When the battle re-started, the wet local cannons could no more be fired. On the contrary, the British cannons were firing hot balls. Troops sensed a conspiracy because the troops under Mir Zafar was not moving. Mir Madan was already killed, the petty officers were without a suitable commanding officer. Nawab side was in a complete mess.

In such a situation, the troops started to leave the battle field in groups. So, the fate of Bengal and also the entire Hindustan was decided by this heavy and cursed monsoon rainfall of Bengal that caused us untold misery during the 190 years of slavery under British.
 
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This is just a reminder of a promise given, which has still to be fulfilled. I have actually been working on it, but not hard enough, regrettably, and shall try to start things up as soon as possible.
 
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Guten Tag,

I read this first:
"The British Indian Army from 1757 to 1857, its ethnic composition and its famous battles;
The British Indian Army from 1857 to 1947, its ethnic composition and its famous battles."

In this context there is an excellent piece by the famous Pakistani historian A H AMIN:

The Sepoy Rebellion of 1857-59

I assure you gentlemen that you will appreciate this article:-)
Auf Wiedersehen!
 
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Guten Tag,

I read this first:
"The British Indian Army from 1757 to 1857, its ethnic composition and its famous battles;
The British Indian Army from 1857 to 1947, its ethnic composition and its famous battles."

In this context there is an excellent piece by the famous Pakistani historian A H AMIN:

The Sepoy Rebellion of 1857-59

I assure you gentlemen that you will appreciate this article:-)
Auf Wiedersehen!

The article is not the first analysis of the great "Martial Races" theory. Nor even the first time that it was torn to shreds.
But be that as it may; the author of this piece is the redoubtable Maj. Agha H. Amin. Will that be sufficient to convince some of our friends on this forum?;)
Aber, es ist doch so einfach.
 
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The article is not the first analysis of the great "Martial Races" theory. Nor even the first time that it was torn to shreds.
But be that as it may; the author of this piece is the redoubtable Maj. Agha H. Amin. Will that be sufficient to convince some of our friends on this forum?;)
Aber, es ist doch so einfach.

Sehr gut, Sie auch Deutch sprechen? I habe in meine Schule Deutch gelernt.
I bet I messed up multiple times on the above sentence:-) It has been 21 years since 10th standard in a Jesuit high school where German was the only subject where I could score!
Yeah, I agree about very few Pakistani members being convinced with this article. The '1Pakistani soldier/pilot/cop/housewife/infant =10Indians/non-Pakistanis' is very deeply entrenched here. Well, one can only try.
 
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Sehr gut, Sie auch Deutch sprechen? I habe in meine Schule Deutch gelernt.
I bet I messed up multiple times on the above sentence:-) It has been 21 years since 10th standard in a Jesuit high school where German was the only subject where I could score!

lol, if it was Deutsch in a Jesuit school; then chances are that the syllabus was Grundstufe und Mittelstufe of the MMB and the Deutsche Sprachlehre fur Auslander was the prescribed text. But yes, most students took the subject to score marks at the Boards. And the Jesuits were quite good at propagating the language. :)
 
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" Deutsche Sprachlehre fur Auslander" it was! Though I also chose to do the Max Mueller Bhavan course for the hot chicks:-)(or so I thought back then)
Ok,ok, now you know I went to a Boy's school!!! BTW, it was Loyola High School, Pune! If I ever get a tattoo , thats what I'll be putting on my 37 yearl old back!
Anyway, before these posts get deleted for being off - topic........
 
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Bandit, I guess to each his own, we indeed don't have any historical record of that incident to prove it true/untrue. Personal account shouldn't be taken as Historical prove.

If I have not expressed surprise at this utterly astonishing statement before, I am doing so now.

Has your location affected your judgement? Seriously.
 
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If I have not expressed surprise at this utterly astonishing statement before, I am doing so now.

Has your location affected your judgement? Seriously.

Well we all have our bad days, have we not? :p

After researching a bit about the incident, I came to know the story was told by one of the survivor. There might be slight exaggeration considering the mental trauma he had gone through, but surely that kind of inhumane treatment to prisoners wasn't rare in those days.
 
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If I have not expressed surprise at this utterly astonishing statement before, I am doing so now.

Has your location affected your judgement? Seriously.

Well we all have our bad days, have we not? :p

After researching a bit about the incident, I came to know the story was told by one of the survivor. There might be slight exaggeration considering the mental trauma he had gone through, but surely that kind of inhumane treatment to prisoners wasn't rare in those days.

@Abir

I am so sorry to have started shooting without quite understanding what you and bandit were discussing.

In the case of the 'Black Hole' tragedy and Holwell's account of the tragedy, I agree with you that it is now questioned by many historians of integrity, and there is not enough corroborative evidence either than Holwell's account. It seems that there is a sceptical sentence or two about it from me as well, on some earlier post, but I am not sure.

Incidentally, this event - if it occurred - illustrates the reason why the Murshidabad Nawabs had to go, and the British came in. It was unintended stupidity, like many other things that Indians did then, and do now. Obviously the order was passed down the line to detain the prisoners, and it seems quite possible that no designated prison building was specified. We are left to speculate that some very low-level soldiers were left out of the looting to shove these Englishmen into a holding room, as it is, they felt disgruntled, and they shoved them into the closest and most convenient room they found, with no concern for the temperature, for the impact of the close room on the prisoners, or for any humane thought. However, whether intentional or accidental, it was cruel if it occurred. Nobody can say for sure if it did occur. Holwell himself turned out to be an excitable, hair-trigger individual, who in later life was involved in one over-the-top incident after another. He would not be first choice as a reliable witness with integrity.

I was under the impression that you were referring to the Battle of Plassey, and was quite thunderstruck at the possibility that you were denying its details.

Consider me grovelling and contrite.

Regards,
 
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