The Battle for Bajaur - PA seizes control

[BATMAN]

I have been saying this for a long time that the only tangible solution to the problem s mining and fencing the border and allowing traffic through control points only. Because it is not entirelty PA s problem, the cost and the maintenance of these posts should be PA as well as ISAF.NATO should bear the cost of this effort. Once this is done Pakistan can go on an allout offensive and say that we have done our bit for the WOT, now you guys move off your ***** and sort the mess out in Afghhanistan.
This should be followed by a relative clearout of all Afghanis and foreign nationals, setting up of industrial zones and provision of work and education and health to the local populace that agrees to the terms of the peace accord and give up heavy arms.
Araz

Those who propose such measures are forced to resign.
I wonder no media was surprised on rejection of measures which could help to control un authorized crossing of borders.
Is it not circumstantial evidence who is helping terrorists crossing borders?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Taliban crossing Pak-Afghan border to fight in Bajaur’​

* Senior military official says operation to continue until Tribal Areas cleared

ISLAMABAD: Taliban are crossing the border from Afghanistan to fight against the Pakistani forces in Bajaur and other areas, and Pakistan has informed the US and other relevant authorities, a senior military official said on Monday.

“The Pakistan-Afghan border is porous and is now causing trouble for us in Bajaur,” the official who declined to be identified said.

Continued operations: He said military operations in the troubled areas bordering Afghanistan will continue until the whole tribal belt was cleared of Taliban.

“We are determined to neutralise the threat,” he told a press conference. The official rejected the impression that the army was not trained to carry out operations against Taliban. “We can finish the Swat operation in a week if there is no consideration for collateral damage,” he said.

He said the security forces had suffered a total of 1,368 casualties in the war on terror since 2001, while 3,348 personnel had been wounded. Meanwhile, 2,825 Taliban, including 581 foreigners and 2,244 locals had been killed. 1,400 Taliban were injured over the same period, which included 311 foreigners and 1,089 locals.

He expressed regret that gains made in last year’s operation in Swat had been wasted after elections. “We believe the agreement of May 21, 2008 was signed from a position of weakness,” he said.

He said 69 personnel of the security forces had been martyred in the Bajaur operation, while 239 were injured.

The official said that the operation in Darra Adam Khel had concluded successfully.

He said the tribesmen in Mamoond were raising their own militia to expel Al Qaeda and fighting was expected.

“The Mamoond valley is likely to erupt, in our view, in about 48 to 72 hours,” he said.

sajjad malik/reuters

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[ejaz007]

Initially I believe army and the government were hesitant in dealing with the talibans but now the operation is going on with full conviction and military is serious in taking the operation to its logical conclusion.

If one looks at the progress of the operation than one thing is obvious initially the progress was slow but now the progress is steady and a number of areas have been cleared of the taliban. Taliban are becoming weak and should not be given time to reorganize.

As far as the numbers are concerned it is difficult to estimate that. Initially it was thought that they numbered around 3,000 but later that number was revised. Combined strength as I can understand could be around 10,000. It is not difficult to dislodge such a number but civilian casualties have to be minimized therefore more time is needed to complete the operation.

It is my personal opinion that if operation continues than perhaps within next six months this problem shall be almost eliminated. However we need to fence the border once we have eliminated them to ensure more are not send from across the border.

 

[fatman17]

^^AM - this could be the underlying objective of the US/Nato troops & political leaders to create a "inferno" in the FATA by pushing the pakistanis "to do more" and then tacitly allow the militants to pour into pakistan to help their militant brothers. this leaves the afghan side of the border in relative peace so that they can drink their whiskey & sodas in peace.

 

[IceCold]

This is worrisome as more and more militants are coming from afghanistan to fight the PA right under the watch of both the US and NATO. I think this issue needs to be seriously raised with the americans that look where the hell are you when they cross in from afghanistan into Pakistan. And if they do nothing about it, then perhaps we should start hitting targets beyond our borders. Maybe that will give them a wake up call that if you can act unilaterally, we can too.

 

[muse]

And if they do nothing about it, then perhaps we should start hitting targets beyond our borders

We're having a spot of bother targetting inside Pakistan territory, perhaps we might get that right before expanding our horizons.

It's of course rough on the nerves, but we have no choice in the matter - lets get the butcher business right in Pakistan first - you will see none of this "do more" stuff will have any meaning in the eyes of the people of the world.

 

[Task Force Black]

This is worrisome as more and more militants are coming from Afghanistan to fight the PA right under the watch of both the US and NATO. I think this issue needs to be seriously raised with the Americans that look where the hell are you when they cross in from Afghanistan into Pakistan. And if they do nothing about it, then perhaps we should start hitting targets beyond our borders. Maybe that will give them a wake up call that if you can act unilaterally, we can too.

Routine NATO patrols for a number of years in Afghanistan regularly flag down cars filled with Pakistani men, sometimes as many as 6 to 10 people crammed into one vehicle. It has been noted on several occasions that photographs taken of these men have shown up later on during body recovery after engagements.

At the time they are stopped at the border they are searched, and their vehicle is inspected carefully, and it is quite normal to find nothing, no weapons or explosives or otherwise any reason to detain them.

Obviously when they arrive at their destinations and they are travelling to fight with the Taliban militancy on either side of the border, they receive all material support they require when they arrive.

Both Pakistan and NATO border patrols have for many years both operated with no illusions as to this aspect, and both are equally responsible for "waving through" the Taliban. We should completely advocate a more rigorous approach, but in order to achieve that border patrols need to be amalgamated in order for this to occur.

You also advocate coming over to Afghanistan in order to pursue Taliban militia. The difference between your position and by association Pakistans, and NATO's position on that is very simple:

You're welcome to come.

And that's a real call to wake up, as you succinctly put it.

 

[IceCold]

We're having a spot of bother targetting inside Pakistan territory, perhaps we might get that right before expanding our horizons.

It's of course rough on the nerves, but we have no choice in the matter - lets get the butcher business right in Pakistan first - you will see none of this "do more" stuff will have any meaning in the eyes of the people of the world.

Muse you forget that the world knew Iraq did not posses WMDs, yet none mattered when US decided to attack it, not even one country could stand up and condemn it. What makes you think that once as suggested by you this butcher business is set straight in Pakistan, "To do More stuff" wont matter. Do you actually believe that the west gives a two centt crap about morality, ethics, reasoning, logic when it comes to Pakistan, if it had, we would have not heard every now and then this do more stuff.
Also one cant just continue to set things straight when the other is bound to destablize you and you cant tell them to stop from the point of weakness.
Like Sir fatman suggested they want us to do more and while they allow militants to flow like water into Pakistan so that things remain peacefull for them in afghanistan for them to have their whisky with Soda.

 

[muse]

Icecold

Between US and Pakistan, "ally" is diplomatese for "bend over" - and it works both ways - Pakistan are not convinced the US is playing to Pakistan's best interests and the Us is unconvinced that Pakistan is playing to US's best interest.

US is not interested in US casualties and Pakistani casualties,, it does nto care about, it figures the Pakistanis do not have value for human lives, so what if more of them get killed, they deserve it anyway. And to be fair, Pakistanis think the same way about US casualties.

In this scenario, we are approaching elections in the US and an economic meltdown and I would be really, really suprised if the Democracts blow this one -- so we, at least in my calculation, won't have neocons to deal with.

As I see it, the US will be throughly engaged in the economic crisis and will be looking for a safe exit from her engagements - I also do not see NATO wanting more of this Afghan business -- However; EVERYBODY wants AQ/Talib dead - And if Pakistan can clean that part of the house, the business of "do more" will disappear - see, EU, Russia, CHina - they hate these AQ/talib types - and they will not support anymore the kinds of things they supported earlier on in the WOT WoMD period - that business is over, the "No" to Israel over Iran is an indication that the fallout is more than the US wants to handle.

Lets just kill these AQ/Talib, it's in our best interests.

 

[IceCold]

Routine NATO patrols for a number of years in Afghanistan regularly flag down cars filled with Pakistani men, sometimes as many as 6 to 10 people crammed into one vehicle. It has been noted on several occasions that photographs taken of these men have shown up later on during body recovery after engagements.

At the time they are stopped at the border they are searched, and their vehicle is inspected carefully, and it is quite normal to find nothing, no weapons or explosives or otherwise any reason to detain them.

Obviously when they arrive at their destinations and they are travelling to fight with the Taliban militancy on either side of the border, they receive all material support they require when they arrive.

Both Pakistan and NATO border patrols have for many years both operated with no illusions as to this aspect, and both are equally responsible for "waving through" the Taliban. We should completely advocate a more rigorous approach, but in order to achieve that border patrols need to be amalgamated in order for this to occur.

You also advocate coming over to Afghanistan in order to pursue Taliban militia. The difference between your position and by association Pakistans, and NATO's position on that is very simple:

You're welcome to come.

And that's a real call to wake up, as you succinctly put it.

Do you actually expect me to respond to this.
Even if we agree as you said that both Pakistan and NATO are equally responsible for waving through the taliban, my question is why has Pakistan only to bear the whole blame?
According to what you said then perhaps both sides needed to do more. Then why is it that to do more sentence is only made for Pakistan.
Why is that all heroin is being manufactured in afghanistan right under the watch of both the NATO and the US from which these militans get money to procure weapons and those are smuggled into Pakistan to create havoc inside our territory. Why exactly has both these forces (NATO and the US) failed to stop the manufacture of narcotics or perhaps they dont wont too.

If we are pursuing militants then once they get destroyed on our side of the border, we have the right, the same right the US talks about to attack the militant sanctuaries inside afghanistan. Afghanistan is the main cause for trouble in Pakistan and frankly we have had it with this nonsense carried on by both the US and NATO inside afghanistan. Things need to be sorted out and this is the right time, however we do it or not that is an altogether different story, obviously are leaders are no better then Karzai in saying yes sir to the US the elite class i am talking about.

 

[IceCold]

Icecold

Between US and Pakistan, "ally" is diplomatese for "bend over" - and it works both ways - Pakistan are not convinced the US is playing to Pakistan's best interests and the Us is unconvinced that Pakistan is playing to US's best interest.

US is not interested in US casualties and Pakistani casualties,, it does nto care about, it figures the Pakistanis do not have value for human lives, so what if more of them get killed, they deserve it anyway. And to be fair, Pakistanis think the same way about US casualties.

In this scenario, we are approaching elections in the US and an economic meltdown and I would be really, really suprised if the Democracts blow this one -- so we, at least in my calculation, won't have neocons to deal with.

As I see it, the US will be throughly engaged in the economic crisis and will be looking for a safe exit from her engagements - I also do not see NATO wanting more of this Afghan business -- However; EVERYBODY wants AQ/Talib dead - And if Pakistan can clean that part of the house, the business of "do more" will disappear - see, EU, Russia, CHina - they hate these AQ/talib types - and they will not support anymore the kinds of things they supported earlier on in the WOT WoMD period - that business is over, the "No" to Israel over Iran is an indication that the fallout is more than the US wants to handle.

Lets just kill these AQ/Talib, it's in our best interests.

I think there is no disagreeing in taking out these militants from Pakistan, the disagreeing lies in where we are being pushed to the wall by these so called allies of ours while they are just sitting around and enjoying the show.
US economy is indeed in a meltdown state and quite frankly i too dont think that they will stay in afghanistan for too long, but then again we will be left alone to handle the menace that they have left as friends can change but neighbours cant be we are stuck for life time with Afghanistan. Then what? We will be back to square one where we started and with Pakistan to bear the blame for not doing enough.
Bottom line is that if we are doing more, US too needs to do alot more on its side of the border which quite frankly its not doing. The only thing it seems interested is in attacking pakistan.So how exactly will then things work between us and them. Atleast I dont see it happening.

 

[muse]

Lets assume that task force black is spot on with the business about vehicles loaded with "Pakistanis" -- This of course assumes all Afghans in Pakistan are Pakistanis, on the othet hand there's no point in denying that Pakistanis are also part of the Talib militia as is clear or ought to be clear from the goings on in Swat, FATA and PATA, not to mention the lashkar of this and that and the fedaeen of this and jaish of that.

The problem in all this has been and will continue to be that US is deep up the NA's behind and their view or perception is shaped by this reality, that is why for 7 years US has managed to ensure Pakistani interests in Afghanistan are not viewed as legitimate.

Now, whether the US stays or goes, Pakistani interest in Afghanistan is a permanent feature - it would have been prudent to fashion policy that does not disregard Pakistani interests but that's the whole point of "Imperial Hubris", of the go it alone mentality. US behaves as if the NA worldview is imprinted on their policy.

It has been revealed in the press that Karzai govt with US santion has sought a negotiated outcome with the Talib, in other words, they, both Kharzaied and the US recognize that this is a force that has support in the Afghan populace - and these world views, the NA and Talib are diametrically opposed.

Pakistan can do it's best and clean up this AQ/talib business in Pakistan such that those attacking Pakistan are eliminated and design to create more such groups are dealt with swiftly, with lethal force. This means the Pakistani religious parties should be made to feel pain for their support of obscuritanists.

 

[fatman17]

Lets just kill these AQ/Talib, it's in our best interests.[/QUOTE]

which we r and succeeding!

 

[Task Force Black]

Do you actually expect me to respond to this.
Even if we agree as you said that both Pakistan and NATO are equally responsible for waving through the taliban, my question is why has Pakistan only to bear the whole blame?

According to what you said then perhaps both sides needed to do more. Then why is it that to do more sentence is only made for Pakistan.

Your choice to respond.

The "blame game" is put forward by media spinners looking to make copy. Reality on the ground dictates that both Pakistani and NATO patrols do intercept the flow of militancy across the border, but the cursory searches repeatedly fail to come up with evidence and just wave them on through. Do we choose to act to compensate for this shortcomming in meeting clear militant tactics or do we continue with the status-quo?

There is sufficient technology available to be able to conduct a more complete check for traces of gun powder or explosives, but few if any of these devices are carried by the routine patrols that intercept drivers, or are available at check points.

More immediately solveable, instead of simply sitting in bunkers and flying the flag, forces should aim to integrate directly with staged joint patrols, and do it daily. This is not without precedence, and has even been recently chaired again by the leadership. The amount of intercept incidents that could have resulted in legal detention of militant combatants if all parties are present, using all that could be placed at their disposal would be one significant and not overly costly step in the right direction.

Why is that all heroin is being manufactured in Afghanistan right under the watch of both the NATO and the US from which these militants get money to procure weapons and those are smuggled into Pakistan to create havoc inside our territory. Why exactly has both these forces (NATO and the US) failed to stop the manufacture of narcotics or perhaps they don't wont too.

There are varied schools of thought in this, that range from complete chemical deforestation of entire sections of Helmand, poisoning the soil so that irreversible desertification sets in, through to destroying compounds during engagement and removing plantation communes, often with recompense paid to the locals in blood money, to the direct purchase of Heroin by ISAF to remove as much as possible from the market, up to more longer term goals with UN agricultural missions looking to replace Heroin with maize, saffron and olive crops and even the Turkish model which seeks to build a legitimate pharmaceutical industry from nothing over the course of the next twenty years.

Up to now the majority of NATO efforts have been focused on constructing and training an effective police force and ISAF while fighting the Taliban insurgency, which hampers a more singular focus on counter narcotics operations. Previous efforts focus almost exclusively on the production and have impacted negatively on the farmers, which has been far from successful. The Afghan government report about 70 ISAF and police deaths related to counter narcotic operations this year alone, this is a sustained figure.

An emerging strategy from the new command will be to dedicate more resources to counter narcotics operations but aimed instead at targeting the downstream chemical processing facilities.

Significant amounts of engagements in and around Helmand have been as a direct result of targeting the drugs industry, and it remains a primary long term goal to bring this particular aspect of the conflict to heel.

If we are pursuing militants then once they get destroyed on our side of the border, we have the right, the same right the US talks about to attack the militant sanctuaries inside Afghanistan. Afghanistan is the main cause for trouble in Pakistan and frankly we have had it with this nonsense carried on by both the US and NATO inside Afghanistan. Things need to be sorted out and this is the right time, however we do it or not that is an altogether different story, obviously are leaders are no better then Karzai in saying yes sir to the US the elite class i am talking about.

Yes you have the right, and so does NATO. It will be the wisest in the chains of command that will find ways to draw upon that as a common strategic objective; as opposed to simply erecting all sorts of barriers for enemy combatants to simply use to their advantage.

 

[dr.umer]

Pakistan forces destroy Taliban bunkers​

By Farhan Bokhari in Islamabad

Published: September 30 2008 03:00

Pakistani troops have destroyed a Taliban stronghold on the Afghan border and unearthed a network of underground bunkers used for planning and training hardcore militants, a senior Pakistani security official claimed yesterday.

Officials said the militant stronghold destroyed in Bajaur province in an operation completed over the weekend was one of three or four of its kind on the Pakistani side of the Afghan border. The stronghold, made up of an elaborate network of tunnels, was used for regular meetings of commanders and keeping stockpiles of weapons and ammunition, they said.

Bajaur, the smallest of the seven "agencies" that make up Pakistan's semi-autonomous tribal areas, has been the site of a big military offensive against militants since August.

Pakistan's role in supporting the US and Nato forces in Afghanistan to curb al-Qaeda and Taliban militants has faced questions recently, and senior officials in Washington and at the defence alliance have urged Islamabad to do more to curb the flow of militants into Afghanistan.

A storm of public criticism also erupted in Pakistan this month after US air strikes and raids on suspected militant sites near the Afghan border.

At a background briefing for reporters yesterday, Pakistan sought to portray the destruction of the Bajaur stronghold as a significant victory in its efforts to stem the flow of militants across the border. The latest success, a senior security official said, would mean a 65-70 per cent reduction in the hundreds of militants who crossed the border into Afghanistan.

Pakistani officials have acknowledged hundreds of militants cross the border every week to fight against the Nato-led force in Afghanistan. (When???)

One western defence official said the destruction of the Bajaur stronghold was significant but it was impossible to see what the full impact of "this single victory" would eventually be.

Another western official said the operation showed that the military was capable of striking at the heart of the militant structure.

Analysts said Islamabad appeared more intent on battling militants since General Ashfaq Kiyani, the army chief, this month reiterated Pakistan's right to take action against militants on the country's soil.

Retired Brigadier Shaukat Qadir, a commentator on military and security affairs, said: "Pakistanis are increasingly seeing this war as their own, rather than an American war.

"Gen Kiyani's statement has been an important catalyst to articulate the view that Pakistan must . . . solve this problem."

The offensive in Bajaur has come at a big cost to civilians. The United Nations said yesterday that some 20,000 people from the province had fled to Afghanistan in recent months due to the intense fighting between government forces and militants.