The Battle for Bajaur - PA seizes control

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

P.S: Anwar:

On your last point of the 'ideology of Pakistan'. Being a Muslim nation has nothing to do with allowing terrorism to take place within and without her territory.

Being an Islamic nation is not synonymous with allowing the spread of Jahiliyat, as preached by the Taliban, into every corner of our nation.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The Taliban chose to seek refuge in Pakistan, which perhaps can be excused.

no AM this was the start of the problem and therefore can not be excused !!!

In hindsight yes it was, but it became a problem because the Taliban ignored the writ of the Pakistani State, and challenged it both internally and externally. It is obvious now that the ideology these people subscribe to will not allow them to rest until they destroy everything they touch.

But, if they had merely sought refuge, instead of using Pakistan to launch their evil plans, I think Pakistan owed her former 'clients' a chance to survive, among other reasons.

 

[fatman17]

In hindsight yes it was, but it became a problem because the Taliban ignored the writ of the Pakistani State, and challenged it both internally and externally. It is obvious now that the ideology these people subscribe to will not allow them to rest until they destroy everything they touch.

But, if they had merely sought refuge, instead of using Pakistan to launch their evil plans, I think Pakistan owed her former 'clients' a chance to survive, among other reasons.

i see what you mean, but the problem with that is that we cannot take care of our own, how then can we let people from other countries take refuge or rather permanent refuge within our borders. there have to be limits. we have used up our welcome mats.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

i see what you mean, but the problem with that is that we cannot take care of our own, how then can we let people from other countries take refuge or rather permanent refuge within our borders. there have to be limits. we have used up our welcome mats.

Agreed, no more refugees please.

I think all favors have been returned.

 

[S-2]

"I think all favors have been returned."

Indeed they have. In fact, your army's efforts in Bajaur has pushed some families (and enemies) back into our laps. This is natural and will likely occur in both directions henceforth.

"During a visit to OP4, Captain Dave Conner, who is the unwashed Walsh's commanding officer, tries to talk up the new era of co-operation with the Pakistanis. "Here, we have a working relationship with an English-speaking commander - it's good.'

Walsh is not so sure. 'Yeah, sir,' he says. 'I think they tell us what they think we want to hear.'"

I see that Lieutenant Joe Walsh is learning about "The Rocky Mountain Way".

It'll be awhile. Not everybody is going to proceed at the same pace. Likely the captain has a larger picture. Likely, too, that he's a tad more politically attuned. Lieutenants are notorious for opening their mouths without engaging their brains.

This is a LONNNNG war. The better it's coordinated the more quiet it will be fought.

Something to work towards.

 

[fatman17]

Lieutenants are notorious for opening their mouths without engaging their brains.

very interesting, i knew a US marine (retd) in the US whose unit CO used to tell him "Gorringe Robert A, you can be a great marine, but you talk and think too much"

 

[Shoaib_Sham]

These Talibans have been forced on our Tribal Areas very systematically .

wrong my dear friend. we allowed them the sanctuary when they were fleeing from afghanistan. had we stopped them cold at the borders, which by the way we could have if we had the political and military will at that time, and therefore, we would not be in the quagmire we are in the FATA. it is going to take some time. one reaps what one sows !!!

I agree that it was mistake that we did. But the magnitude of the problem that we see today can not be just attributed to this. Mualana FM, Mangal Bagh,Baitalullah mehsud and mushroom growth of local taliban leaders is a local phenomena with foriegn support for scoring long term gains.I am not inking an conspiracy thoery here. the fact of the matter is that those factions of taliban who actually were part of ruling taliban when US attacked Afghanistan are causing least problems to our security agencies in FATA.

 

[fatman17]

I agree that it was mistake that we did. But the magnitude of the problem that we see today can not be just attributed to this. Mualana FM, Mangal Bagh,Baitalullah mehsud and mushroom growth of local taliban leaders is a local phenomena with foriegn support for scoring long term gains.I am not inking an conspiracy thoery here. the fact of the matter is that those factions of taliban who actually were part of ruling taliban when US attacked Afghanistan are causing least problems to our security agencies in FATA.

it would be foolhardy on our part not to attribute this growth of the local taliban to the ruling taliban. where do you think the ruling taliban movement was "spawned" so to speak - right here in FATAland madrassah's.

 

[RedBaron]

it would be foolhardy on our part not to attribute this growth of the local taliban to the ruling taliban. where do you think the ruling taliban movement was "spawned" so to speak - right here in FATAland madrassah's.

I'm no expert on FATA/Taliban/Afghan topics, but am a bit of a history buff. When I read about the entrenched insurgents, the madrassahs that spawned them, etc. I can't help noticing the similarity between the Taliban and the Vietcong. In Vietnam, the Vietcong prosecuted the guerilla war (with NVA/Chinese support) and controlled the rural countryside. The Americans and South Vietnamese allies held the cities and large towns initially, which then fell like dominoes. The Vietcong endured severe losses from ground forces and aerial bombardment, but persisted. They kept harassing the US and SV allies, indoctrinated villages and used them as recruiting grounds, won over villagers by rendering basic healthcare, etc. The rest is of course history....

Fast forward forty years, replace Vietnam by FATA, Vietcong by Taliban, Saigon by Bajaur(or any other large FATA town), South Vietnam by FC/Pak Army and what do you see? I don't see a way out of this quagmire.

 

[fatman17]

I'm no expert on FATA/Taliban/Afghan topics, but am a bit of a history buff. When I read about the entrenched insurgents, the madrassahs that spawned them, etc. I can't help noticing the similarity between the Taliban and the Vietcong. In Vietnam, the Vietcong prosecuted the guerilla war (with NVA/Chinese support) and controlled the rural countryside. The Americans and South Vietnamese allies held the cities and large towns initially, which then fell like dominoes. The Vietcong endured severe losses from ground forces and aerial bombardment, but persisted. They kept harassing the US and SV allies, indoctrinated villages and used them as recruiting grounds, won over villagers by rendering basic healthcare, etc. The rest is of course history....

Fast forward forty years, replace Vietnam by FATA, Vietcong by Taliban, Saigon by Bajaur(or any other large FATA town), South Vietnam by FC/Pak Army and what do you see? I don't see a way out of this quagmire.

good analysis or analogy but i doubt it would come to that. we r talking maybe 10,000 militants v. a million viet-cong (supported by the north-vietnames population). the majority of pashtuns and for that matter pakistanis dont support them. the reasons for their existence and "usefullness" are known to us.
...and yes it will take time!

a recent poll shows 7 out of 10 pakistanis dont support militancy/terrorism!

 

[RedBaron]

good analysis or analogy but i doubt it would come to that. we r talking maybe 10,000 militants v. a million viet-cong (supported by the north-vietnames population). the majority of pashtuns and for that matter pakistanis dont support them. the reasons for their existence and "usefullness" are known to us.
...and yes it will take time!

a recent poll shows 7 out of 10 pakistanis dont support militancy/terrorism!

I hope you're right in saying the majority of Pashtuns don't support them. I guess preventing Taliban from recruiting from FATA and growing their ranks is key alongwith basic steps to improve living standards in the remote areas - those poor souls have little to begin with, so it should not be difficult or expensive to do something to improve their lot. That is where USAID can work wonders if it chooses to. I do appreciate the sensitivity towards air-strikes which alienate the populace, driving them towards the Taliban. The battle will be won or lost depending on the hearts and minds of the FATA natives, not in Wash/Islamabad/Kabul.

 

[Kasrkin]

Fast forward forty years, replace Vietnam by FATA, Vietcong by Taliban, Saigon by Bajaur(or any other large FATA town), South Vietnam by FC/Pak Army and what do you see? I don't see a way out of this quagmire.

Pakistan Army is not the S. Vietnamese Army no matter which way you look at it. Many senior analysts have said that the Pakistan Army has the power to destroy Al-Qaeda completely...just requires time, reorientation and trust. Pakistan is a big country for international standards, almost the entire population of which is Muslim representing varying levels of attachment to their Pakistan Army. Furthermore American forces are not commanding or directing or fighting a long side Pakistani forces (no matter how much they want to) where as the South Vietnamese Army was essentially an American creation…an American experiment designed to prop up a dead regime with basically no future in Vietnam as far as the ordinary Vietnamese were considered. The Pakistan Army, no matter what people say, is not such a regime…it is much more dynamic, complex, self sustaining, autonomous and aye competent and part of a system (though admittedly flawed) that represents the Pakistani democratic setup.

Besides the opposition in Vietnam had the ability, when they so choose, to mount large scale conventional military assaults on American and South Vietnamese troops but the Taliban however lack any such a ability just like they lack one coherent or efficient command structure making it impossible for them to conduct simultaneous raids. And if they even think of try anything more than an IED attack or a company sized ambush (max) then they’re already dead. The Taliban IMO are little more than glorified raiders, they have influence and operatives here and there but they control NO territory like the Mujahideen and the Viet Cong did that the Americans have difficulty contesting control over. Bajour, Swat and S. Waziristan have shown the Taliban incapable of withstanding a sustained military onslaught by the Pak Army even if these operations were called short because of political reasons.

So it’s more like hammer on anvil thing as far as the Pak-US military operations are concerned as opposed to the Americans trying to prop up a crumbling corpse of a regime in nation whose destiny is beyond their (moral or military) ability to control in Vietnam. Besides Bajour and Muhammad Agencies are not towns, they are entire districts. The Taliban in the tribal areas are fighting against the status quo, they are losing support not gaining it. As it were the tribal areas constitute a relatively small portion of the population of Pakistan (even if it is the most backward, geographically rough and under-developed) as compared to Vietnam where half the damn nation was run by the North Vietnamese. Most Pakistanis now oppose these anti-state elements and the trend is tilting our way despite our controversial “alliance” with the US.

 

[RedBaron]

Pakistan Army is not the S. Vietnamese Army no matter which way you look at it.
...
The Taliban IMO are little more than glorified raiders, they have influence and operatives here and there but they control NO territory like the Mujahideen and the Viet Cong did that the Americans have difficulty contesting control over. Bajour, Swat and S. Waziristan have shown the Taliban incapable of withstanding a sustained military onslaught by the Pak Army even if these operations were called short because of political reasons.

So it’s more like hammer on anvil thing as far as the Pak-US military operations are concerned as opposed to the Americans trying to prop up a crumbling corpse of a regime in nation whose destiny is beyond their (moral or military) ability to control in Vietnam. ...

Thanks for the details. Of course, I did not mean to suggest that Pak and its army is similar to the tinpot SViet govt and their army. There is no comparison there. I agree about the far smaller capability and support of Taliban, but some spectacular strikes carried out by them (or by their AQ brethren/other sympathizing factions) suggest they have the ability to strike high-value targets. Particularly, assasinations of top politicians (BB) and even top military officers, serving and former. E.g. the thread on ex-SSG chief Gen Alvi assasination alleging internal involvment is disturbing. But maybe I'm digressing here, so will stop....

 

[Kasrkin]

It is very disturbing, but there is more to it. Needless to say that suicide bombing are no substitute for proper military style operations. Assassinations don’t win wars, and there is a limit to even their terrorism abilities...indiscriminate attacks against logistics and civilians don't say much about Taliban military competence or ability. Some argue it shows that they are frustrated in the field and are obliged to risk public opinion turning against them which has pretty much happened due to such shows of wanton chaos and destruction.

 

[fatman17]

I hope you're right in saying the majority of Pashtuns don't support them. I guess preventing Taliban from recruiting from FATA and growing their ranks is key alongwith basic steps to improve living standards in the remote areas - those poor souls have little to begin with, so it should not be difficult or expensive to do something to improve their lot. That is where USAID can work wonders if it chooses to. I do appreciate the sensitivity towards air-strikes which alienate the populace, driving them towards the Taliban. The battle will be won or lost depending on the hearts and minds of the FATA natives, not in Wash/Islamabad/Kabul.

absolutely correct mate! every punter on this forum agrees about rebuilding the area, and has been discussed in detail....no question!