The Ball is in your Court Sir

[FaujHistorian]

I am just curious as why so many in my Urduwa community are talking about military control of the country or one of its cities, or one of the companies.


The problems were very similar last year,

but no one was taking about inviting military to take over.

Why now?

And so soon after the elections?


We are the highest educated and most "employed" community in the country.

Then why so many of us are talking about rule by the generals?



Why?

 

[SQ8]

Oscar, you state the obvious. You also seem confused. You make your prose spicy by using phrases like 'bloody civilians' and then try to sugar coat it by suggesting that soldiers to belong to the human race, a fact i have been retiriating since long. You i know that they come from the same households as other Pakistanis, the only difference is tht oScar went to UK, but his neiguboured appared in ISSB and got recommended. You suggested that when the same Lt hits three star, he undergoes something which is still alien to me, and he starts nibbling on the resources.

i ask you, would your expenses remain the same when after your eduction from UK you return back as a SVP of some bank? Because mine didnt. Things changed since i was a cadet. The only thing that stayed there was them Dunhills which costed Rs 50 back then, and now 120.

Whatever resources which are placed at the disposal of a 3 star is by the state, similar to that of a Commissioner or a SVP. A 'shagird' or chota who had to lay under the vehical in 90s owns a computerised workshop today and lives well. The commonality is the hardwork, education and professiinalism tht all tese 3 stars, Commissionees and the mechanics had to get 'promoted'.

Now misuse of resources wehther belonging to the state in case of a 3 star or the company in case of a SVP should be questioned, which you dont seem to as your focus always is on uniforms or the govt dept you had the experience to sit/work in.

You seem to have issues with golf courses, but dont seem to bother the clubs that cost millions in membership alone. In my opinion both are justified, the formar constructed without burdening te state, the latter by the pockets of the rich. The only diffrence i see is, one, the uniforms who go there have earned it through their commission and then constant hardwork, wheras most of the civilians were able to take membership from the money thy had inherited which was accumulated by the hardwork of their forefathers. Two, golf courses can provide a venue to a Captain for his marriage who belonged o Toba Tek Singh, whereas a civilian from TTS might never see past the walls of the elite clubs owned by other elites.


You also fail to mention the CEOs and Chairmen who would change their Prados on 6 monthly basis, the cabinet members purchsing news cars whnever th govt changes and the offiial residences being renovted on every new occupant.


Lastly, i do agree that education and awareness is the only ante dote available to us. These elections proved it. Media played it role well.

And to end, i must tell you tht staff cars went CNG well back in 2003, though they are no more

Huzoor, that is where your difference in focus lies. Because to what is obvious to you is not obvious to those the narrative was meant for. Moreover, While you contrast and compare the two lives from your PoV and oddly are focused on golf courses as the single entity of envy rather than a popular example, And while you bring up the ideas of CEO's and SVP's being able to earn enough and play enough it seems more of a case of the grass is greener on the other side.

My focus on the uniforms has to do with the subject. True, I have spent more of my life in the houses of uniforms and have dined more in the very houses I critique than those of say a DSP or Deputy Commissioner. I have however, also dined in the houses of quite a few CEO's.. and like the very same three stars I refer to they too come in varieties. Some do use company funds to change their Prado's every year.. while other's are happy with the Reborn they have and dont touch it.
But the difference between all these is that unlike the uniforms they are not part of the state nor are they answerable to me as a citizen. I do not hold a stake with British Petroleum nor do I care what happens to it.. even if I do know that there is a certain man who is earning million on procurement kickbacks.. And I am sure that neither do you.
I do care about the government guy responsible for fixing the road leading from my house that is full of potholes.. and while I will be irked that he looted the money that was meant for the repair for the road and "Choona laga gaya". However, at the end the worst that will happen is that my car's suspension will suffer. If a Sui gas guy demands 50000 bribe for connection.. at the end Ill make his life miserable or Ill have to pay it.. because at some point he will be caught.. and while the damage he will do is bad.. it wont kill anyone.

When it comes to the uniforms(or for that matter Hospitals and Education) I way beyond passionate. So if certain PAF members end up forcing our mirage with a substandard ECM and make money of it. IT boils my blood, because not only have they risked the life of the pilot, they have essentially put in a faulty cog in a machine that would cost us dearly for the safety of our country. I do not hate Zardari because he destroyed PIA(Musharraf's appointee's were busy looting too) .. I hate him on how he and his wife compromised the Airforce with the Mirage deal.. how he messes with the PN. The same way I hate Mansour-ul-Haq(even though he did some good acts within the Navy and his sins have since been surpassed). It is the same way my respect wanes for many of those men who come in those big land cruisers with ten escorts whom we worship on TV channels and have stamps issued with their picture when I hear of them using substandard parts in centrifuges to make a quick buck.

There are three professional lines where someone's life depends on how you perform and only those who truly are passionate about it should be in it.. Military/Law enforcement, Medical and Education... and it only with these three that I truly care what goes on. A good and honest officer may save the lives of his men or let them die, A Good doctor will perform a miracle or murder a person.. and a good teacher will make a great person out of a poor student.. and a bad teacher will destroy the life of a promising person.

As for the narrative on the membership and equal opportunities.. My father joined Pitaro with three of his good friends from College.. He , however left because his temperament was not for it ..much to the ire of my Grandfather the Commodore..
While he went to the US, his friends stayed on. Years later.. my father was VP having worked all his life in the Pakistani hotel industry.. but we had no house, little in terms of savings(to much his fault too).. but even if he did.. would not be much. Yet, thankfully we dined and stayed in five star luxury in those times. So one of these friends who was then COMKAR came over and after showing us the land he had in Anchorage which was quite a bit and telling of his other properties..he sat down for dinner.. and said the following words that echo what you are saying "You Civilians have it best, no tensions"..

And like right now.. All I could do is smile.

 

[Donatello]

Oscar, you state the obvious. You also seem confused. You make your prose spicy by using phrases like 'bloody civilians' and then try to sugar coat it by suggesting that soldiers to belong to the human race, a fact i have been retiriating since long. You i know that they come from the same households as other Pakistanis, the only difference is tht oScar went to UK, but his neiguboured appared in ISSB and got recommended. You suggested that when the same Lt hits three star, he undergoes something which is still alien to me, and he starts nibbling on the resources.

i ask you, would your expenses remain the same when after your eduction from UK you return back as a SVP of some bank? Because mine didnt. Things changed since i was a cadet. The only thing that stayed there was them Dunhills which costed Rs 50 back then, and now 120.

Whatever resources which are placed at the disposal of a 3 star is by the state, similar to that of a Commissioner or a SVP. A 'shagird' or chota who had to lay under the vehical in 90s owns a computerised workshop today and lives well. The commonality is the hardwork, education and professiinalism tht all tese 3 stars, Commissionees and the mechanics had to get 'promoted'.

Now misuse of resources wehther belonging to the state in case of a 3 star or the company in case of a SVP should be questioned, which you dont seem to as your focus always is on uniforms or the govt dept you had the experience to sit/work in.

You seem to have issues with golf courses, but dont seem to bother the clubs that cost millions in membership alone. In my opinion both are justified, the formar constructed without burdening te state, the latter by the pockets of the rich. The only diffrence i see is, one, the uniforms who go there have earned it through their commission and then constant hardwork, wheras most of the civilians were able to take membership from the money thy had inherited which was accumulated by the hardwork of their forefathers. Two, golf courses can provide a venue to a Captain for his marriage who belonged o Toba Tek Singh, whereas a civilian from TTS might never see past the walls of the elite clubs owned by other elites.


You also fail to mention the CEOs and Chairmen who would change their Prados on 6 monthly basis, the cabinet members purchsing news cars whnever th govt changes and the offiial residences being renovted on every new occupant.


Lastly, i do agree that education and awareness is the only ante dote available to us. These elections proved it. Media played it role well.

And to end, i must tell you tht staff cars went CNG well back in 2003, though they are no more

Xeric,

There are some serious flaws in your post.

First, after getting education in UK/USA or elsewhere will not make you a senior vice-president of any firm unless you already have 10-15 years of work experience or unless it is your own daddy's company. I know this as a matter of fact as my siblings and i study abroad and my father is a senior executive with a leading corporation in Pakistan.When my elder sibling needed the job in the same company, they had to apply the usual way, no special preferences were granted and they started from lowest rank despite having an MBA from a good business school.

Secondly about your post that states of misuse of resources, well look at how the corporate world pays it's employees and how army pays its. In the corporate world salaries and privileges are paid from the profits earned. In army, there are no Profits. The soldiers and officers are paid from the funding given by the government which itself gets funding through taxation of the nation's residents and citizens. Under no way an officer can compare his privileges with an employee in a private company.
You don't join the army because it offers privileges. you join the armed forces because you want to serve your nation. I have said this time and again that if you are after money in your life, then you are better off going to a Business school, Medical school, Law School or Engineering school. Unfortunately people join Army in Pakistan because they want all the privileges and benefits.

Xeric bhai.....our nation is completely broke. We cannot afford to shower our officers with these privileges.

 

[Xeric]

Huzoor, that is where your difference in focus lies. Because to what is obvious to you is not obvious to those the narrative was meant for. Moreover, While you contrast and compare the two lives from your PoV and oddly are focused on golf courses as the single entity of envy rather than a popular example, And while you bring up the ideas of CEO's and SVP's being able to earn enough and play enough it seems more of a case of the grass is greener on the other side.

My focus on the uniforms has to do with the subject. True, I have spent more of my life in the houses of uniforms and have dined more in the very houses I critique than those of say a DSP or Deputy Commissioner. I have however, also dined in the houses of quite a few CEO's.. and like the very same three stars I refer to they too come in varieties. Some do use company funds to change their Prado's every year.. while other's are happy with the Reborn they have and dont touch it.
But the difference between all these is that unlike the uniforms they are not part of the state nor are they answerable to me as a citizen. I do not hold a stake with British Petroleum nor do I care what happens to it.. even if I do know that there is a certain man who is earning million on procurement kickbacks.. And I am sure that neither do you.
I do care about the government guy responsible for fixing the road leading from my house that is full of potholes.. and while I will be irked that he looted the money that was meant for the repair for the road and "Choona laga gaya". However, at the end the worst that will happen is that my car's suspension will suffer. If a Sui gas guy demands 50000 bribe for connection.. at the end Ill make his life miserable or Ill have to pay it.. because at some point he will be caught.. and while the damage he will do is bad.. it wont kill anyone.

When it comes to the uniforms(or for that matter Hospitals and Education) I way beyond passionate. So if certain PAF members end up forcing our mirage with a substandard ECM and make money of it. IT boils my blood, because not only have they risked the life of the pilot, they have essentially put in a faulty cog in a machine that would cost us dearly for the safety of our country. I do not hate Zardari because he destroyed PIA(Musharraf's appointee's were busy looting too) .. I hate him on how he and his wife compromised the Airforce with the Mirage deal.. how he messes with the PN. The same way I hate Mansour-ul-Haq(even though he did some good acts within the Navy and his sins have since been surpassed). It is the same way my respect wanes for many of those men who come in those big land cruisers with ten escorts whom we worship on TV channels and have stamps issued with their picture when I hear of them using substandard parts in centrifuges to make a quick buck.

There are three professional lines where someone's life depends on how you perform and only those who truly are passionate about it should be in it.. Military/Law enforcement, Medical and Education... and it only with these three that I truly care what goes on. A good and honest officer may save the lives of his men or let them die, A Good doctor will perform a miracle or murder a person.. and a good teacher will make a great person out of a poor student.. and a bad teacher will destroy the life of a promising person.

As for the narrative on the membership and equal opportunities.. My father joined Pitaro with three of his good friends from College.. He , however left because his temperament was not for it ..much to the ire of my Grandfather the Commodore..
While he went to the US, his friends stayed on. Years later.. my father was VP having worked all his life in the Pakistani hotel industry.. but we had no house, little in terms of savings(to much his fault too).. but even if he did.. would not be much. Yet, thankfully we dined and stayed in five star luxury in those times. So one of these friends who was then COMKAR came over and after showing us the land he had in Anchorage which was quite a bit and telling of his other properties..he sat down for dinner.. and said the following words that echo what you are saying "You Civilians have it best, no tensions"..

And like right now.. All I could do is smile.

If someone is using or for that matter misusing state resources, it sure is a matter of concern as compared to someone 'wasting' their own money. But then that money which they own now doesnt belong to them alone as it is the money that feed their employees which may vary from a few hundred in case of a mini business to thousands in case it is a bigger enterprise. So, for me it is all the same.

Moreover your post portrayed the civilians as some poor miserable lot and the unis as some rich elites. We must agree that neither i say that civilians are better of than then civies or vice versa. Both have their own issues and problems and goodies. But when you single out the unis in their lavishness, that's a point of concern for me. You did the same when that COMKAR visited you. May be he was not used to dine in 5 star hotels in routine as you did because of your fathers job. For me, if i dont see the complete picture and dont think about the related issues (like no house of own) of having a job in hotel business, your life may seem more attractive to me. It just like a civilian getting fascinated by watching an officer dining in Messes and riding Double Cabs, without recourse to the other hardships that officer might have to bear.

Anywaz, that was a lighter part. On a serious note, dosray ka laddu bara he nazar ata hai. My brother earns PKR 0.3 mil monthly, and he hates his job, i earn a quarter of that but he is impressed how i roam Pakistan oblivious of the fact that if you have to move your entire house twice a year and have to pack, unpack and repack every spoon, balti and towel, it is no less than being in hell. So that's how life is.

He complains that he has to visit fields in scorching heat in air conditioned Parados once in a blue moon, i tell him we do that in routine on foot or back of a 5 ton. He says, hey still you people enjoy in tents, having a filed touch and view of the sky, i tell him they are not better than ACed containers and it is not at all enjoyable when you are having the view of the sky in Decembers with wet socks and so on and so forth.

i dont know why did sir COMKAR 'praise' your lives, but you could have understood that there is no comparison between a man who works in the private sector and the one who is a govt employee. Your father must have had his own incentives which might envy a uniform and so does the COMKAR which surely bothers you and others.

But then the debate between you and me is not regarding the comparison of our lives.

You dont see supporters of military questioning the luxuries of private sector, true that their money doesnt belong to the state nor does it endangers nation's defence (but they do have a responsibility and have to abide by certain morals), nor do you see us getting bothered by the incentives of beaurcary or XENs and other senior govt employees. Why? Because those incentive comes along with the position and the designation, as they do in case of 1, 2 or 3 stars. So why should i question if you can afford a stay in a 5 star on company's expense when you go visit one or their branches, why should you question the COMKAR if he had some piece of land/property (assuming it was given by the state) when as a system of incentives plots and houses are given to defence services officers and soldiers through a very transparent mechanism especially when the COMKAR had paid every penny for it?

Now ofcourse, i dont have answers to stupid questions that the military would have 'captured' prime land on lower rates and by twisting the state organs to provide the military elite with a house that actually costs 40 lac but the owner sells it in 2 carore. i am sure you know how through a very legal and systematic approach this system has matured. The model can be copied by the hotel you father works in and may be he can also have prime land, but if the hotel dont do it, people have no right to question what the military does, till the time it is not illegal.

i hope i was able to explain myself, though we have gone way off topic.

 

[Xeric]

Xeric,

There are some serious flaws in your post.

First, after getting education in UK/USA or elsewhere will not make you a senior vice-president of any firm unless you already have 10-15 years of work experience or unless it is your own daddy's company. I know this as a matter of fact as my siblings and i study abroad and my father is a senior executive with a leading corporation in Pakistan.When my elder sibling needed the job in the same company, they had to apply the usual way, no special preferences were granted and they started from lowest rank despite having an MBA from a good business school.

Haha, i know my dear, it was just to say that a better educated man is going to get a better job than a person who has the same degree from an unkown college in Pakistan.

Secondly about your post that states of misuse of resources, well look at how the corporate world pays it's employees and how army pays its. In the corporate world salaries and privileges are paid from the profits earned. In army, there are no Profits. The soldiers and officers are paid from the funding given by the government which itself gets funding through taxation of the nation's residents and citizens.

Yep, that's the way it is. Army of any country is a non-profit organization. Unlike a steel mill who earns profits and then pays its employees, in the Army you pay us and get service in return. What's so hard in it understand?

Under no way an officer can compare his privileges with an employee in a private company.

Exactly my point!

But then are you implying that an officer how senior he may be must be paid less than a civilian who works in a profit-earning sector?

You don't join the army because it offers privileges. you join the armed forces because you want to serve your nation.

Cliche.

I have said this time and again that if you are after money in your life, then you are better off going to a Business school, Medical school, Law School or Engineering school. Unfortunately people join Army in Pakistan because they want all the privileges and benefits.

Xeric bhai.....our nation is completely broke. We cannot afford to shower our officers with these privileges.

Which privileges are you talking about? Let's hear them. There are no privileges, none at all.

Now what i want you to do is to list down all the things you consider are being provided to soldiers as privileges, and i shall tell you why they are not. Dont duck out!

 

[SQ8]

If someone is using or for that matter misusing state resources, it sure is a matter of concern as compared to someone 'wasting' their own money. But then that money which they own now doesnt belong to them alone as it is the money that feed their employees which may vary from a few hundred in case of a mini business to thousands in case it is a bigger enterprise. So, for me it is all the same.

Moreover your post portrayed the civilians as some poor miserable lot and the unis as some rich elites. We must agree that neither i say that civilians are better of than then civies or vice versa. Both have their own issues and problems and goodies. But when you single out the unis in their lavishness, that's a point of concern for me. You did the same when that COMKAR visited you. May be he was not used to dine in 5 star hotels in routine as you did because of your fathers job. For me, if i dont see the complete picture and dont think about the related issues (like no house of own) of having a job in hotel business, your life may seem more attractive to me. It just like a civilian getting fascinated by watching an officer dining in Messes and riding Double Cabs, without recourse to the other hardships that officer might have to bear.

Anywaz, that was a lighter part. On a serious note, dosray ka laddu bara he nazar ata hai. My brother earns PKR 0.3 mil monthly, and he hates his job, i earn a quarter of that but he is impressed how i roam Pakistan oblivious of the fact that if you have to move your entire house twice a year and have to pack, unpack and repack every spoon, balti and towel, it is no less than being in hell. So that's how life is.

He complains that he has to visit fields in scorching heat in air conditioned Parados once in a blue moon, i tell him we do that in routine on foot or back of a 5 ton. He says, hey still you people enjoy in tents, having a filed touch and view of the sky, i tell him they are not better than ACed containers and it is not at all enjoyable when you are having the view of the sky in Decembers with wet socks and so on and so forth.

i dont know why did sir COMKAR 'praise' your lives, but you could have understood that there is no comparison between a man who works in the private sector and the one who is a govt employee. Your father must have had his own incentives which might envy a uniform and so does the COMKAR which surely bothers you and others.

But then the debate between you and me is not regarding the comparison of our lives.

You dont see supporters of military questioning the luxuries of private sector, true that their money doesnt belong to the state nor does it endangers nation's defence (but they do have a responsibility and have to abide by certain morals), nor do you see us getting bothered by the incentives of beaurcary or XENs and other senior govt employees. Why? Because those incentive comes along with the position and the designation, as they do in case of 1, 2 or 3 stars. So why should i question if you can afford a stay in a 5 star on company's expense when you go visit one or their branches, why should you question the COMKAR if he had some piece of land/property (assuming it was given by the state) when as a system of incentives plots and houses are given to defence services officers and soldiers through a very transparent mechanism especially when the COMKAR had paid every penny for it?

Now ofcourse, i dont have answers to stupid questions that the military would have 'captured' prime land on lower rates and by twisting the state organs to provide the military elite with a house that actually costs 40 lac but the owner sells it in 2 carore. i am sure you know how through a very legal and systematic approach this system has matured. The model can be copied by the hotel you father works in and may be he can also have prime land, but if the hotel dont do it, people have no right to question what the military does, till the time it is not illegal.

i hope i was able to explain myself, though we have gone way off topic.

Janab, the narrative is similar.. as I said before "The grass is greener on the other side"... Both my father and his friend started out from Pitaro.. one worked his up from a 15 hr task at front desk while the other worked out on watch late night as an Lt. However, at the end of the day.. even with my father(or your brother) end up paying almost half of that 0.3 million or whatever as tax(for that matter mian sahab pays less then any of them or even you I guess). This side of the fence may get paid more but then we PAY more for the stuff that you receive.. its a balance as such and is a system that ensures that it is maintained.

However, when I referred for the land.. Ill tell you a simple example..
We live in D.H.A.. each has their schemes with plots and what not which you are aware of. Now if in these ballots for plots when we apply.. or for that matter anyone outside of the 2-3 star category does.. their chances of "winning" these draws goes down..
The creek city flats for eg.. I know of many VP's and others who applied.. but somehow the majority of flats came out in Three star names... HOW? was the process not based on probability or was it rigged so?

Rahi baat legal ki..
If I go to a mobile shop and knows I am a big shot.. and put my hand on him and tell him that he will sell me the Iphone 5 for 30000 regardless of whether it is for 70000 elsewhere.. and give me a receipt for it.. It is still legal. Ethically incorrect.. Morally wrong.. but legal nonetheless.

As for you not worrying about the incentives of the Bureaucrats or others.. why NOT? If you are posted in a dangerous area and your life is at risk.. and you have to sit in the sun within scorching heat on a 4 ton.. protecting this passport office head who shows up at 10 am for work, dissapears at 12pm.. and is seen intermittently while people like up outside his office.. hoping to get their work done.. Then why aren't you upset that while you are breaking your back trying to keep people like him safe.. they are taking advantage??

 

[Xeric]

Janab, the narrative is similar.. as I said before "The grass is greener on the other side"... Both my father and his friend started out from Pitaro.. one worked his up from a 15 hr task at front desk while the other worked out on watch late night as an Lt. However, at the end of the day.. even with my father(or your brother) end up paying almost half of that 0.3 million or whatever as tax(for that matter mian sahab pays less then any of them or even you I guess). This side of the fence may get paid more but then we PAY more for the stuff that you receive.. its a balance as such and is a system that ensures that it is maintained.

So we agree there is no comparison, right? Case closed. Everyone has his stories to tell.

However, when I referred for the land.. Ill tell you a simple example..
We live in D.H.A.. each has their schemes with plots and what not which you are aware of. Now if in these ballots for plots when we apply.. or for that matter anyone outside of the 2-3 star category does.. their chances of "winning" these draws goes down..
The creek city flats for eg.. I know of many VP's and others who applied.. but somehow the majority of flats came out in Three star names... HOW? was the process not based on probability or was it rigged so?

DHAs are primarily for unis. The qouta of civilian though there is much less and hence their chances are less. You can check the details from DHQ Site Offices. Each DHA has majority of its plots already reserved for serving officers i.e. as you must know officers and men are sold plots on the basis of their service years. The first one is due on 19 years of service. So, most of these plots go there. These officers and men then pay the down payment and the installment as the civvies would do, but they didnt undergo balloting and stuff.

The remaining plots are distributed something like:

Senior citizens

Senior Sahafis

Overseas Pakistanis

Civilians

Those in service

Those who have retired



I dont remember the % now, may be DHA website would have it.


So, last time i checked, (normal) civilians i.e. overseas etc ko nikal k have a very small % and thus lower possibility of winning the ballot.

But i dont why, my brother and father (both civilians) applied for plots in DHA City Karachi and both had them. i was not even knowing that they have applied and then they tried to 'sell' one to me as they couldnt afford two plots at one time, which i politely refused as i couldnt bear the burden of installments either.


My bother was like, yaar lay lay, baad mai lay longa tujhys teray paisy utar kar...and i was like, acha aik gari hai wo bhi bikwayega kaya, sakoon kar.

Rahi baat legal ki..
If I go to a mobile shop and knows I am a big shot.. and put my hand on him and tell him that he will sell me the Iphone 5 for 30000 regardless of whether it is for 70000 elsewhere.. and give me a receipt for it.. It is still legal. Ethically incorrect.. Morally wrong.. but legal nonetheless.

i wish i could do that

As for you not worrying about the incentives of the Bureaucrats or others.. why NOT? If you are posted in a dangerous area and your life is at risk.. and you have to sit in the sun within scorching heat on a 4 ton.. protecting this passport office head who shows up at 10 am for work, dissapears at 12pm.. and is seen intermittently while people like up outside his office.. hoping to get their work done.. Then why aren't you upset that while you are breaking your back trying to keep people like him safe.. they are taking advantage??

Yaar, when i was doing door to door service in Balochistan with NADAR guys so that Balochis could have their CNICs so that we can get them jobs, this thought never crossed my mind, so i dont think it would now.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Janab, the narrative is similar.. as I said before "The grass is greener on the other side"... Both my father and his friend started out from Pitaro.. one worked his up from a 15 hr task at front desk while the other worked out on watch late night as an Lt. However, at the end of the day.. even with my father(or your brother) end up paying almost half of that 0.3 million or whatever as tax(for that matter mian sahab pays less then any of them or even you I guess). This side of the fence may get paid more but then we PAY more for the stuff that you receive.. its a balance as such and is a system that ensures that it is maintained.

However, when I referred for the land.. Ill tell you a simple example..
We live in D.H.A.. each has their schemes with plots and what not which you are aware of. Now if in these ballots for plots when we apply.. or for that matter anyone outside of the 2-3 star category does.. their chances of "winning" these draws goes down..
The creek city flats for eg.. I know of many VP's and others who applied.. but somehow the majority of flats came out in Three star names... HOW? was the process not based on probability or was it rigged so?

Rahi baat legal ki..
If I go to a mobile shop and knows I am a big shot.. and put my hand on him and tell him that he will sell me the Iphone 5 for 30000 regardless of whether it is for 70000 elsewhere.. and give me a receipt for it.. It is still legal. Ethically incorrect.. Morally wrong.. but legal nonetheless.

As for you not worrying about the incentives of the Bureaucrats or others.. why NOT? If you are posted in a dangerous area and your life is at risk.. and you have to sit in the sun within scorching heat on a 4 ton.. protecting this passport office head who shows up at 10 am for work, dissapears at 12pm.. and is seen intermittently while people like up outside his office.. hoping to get their work done.. Then why aren't you upset that while you are breaking your back trying to keep people like him safe.. they are taking advantage??

Here are the LEGAL salaries and allowances of an MNA:

Dear All,
It is just for your information please....
Salary & Govt. Concessions for a Member of NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (MNA)
Ø Monthly Salary : Rs. 120,000 to 200,000
Ø Expense for Constitution per month : Rs.100,000
Ø Office expenditure per month : Rs.140,000
Ø Traveling concession (Rs. 8 per km) : Rs.48,000 (For a visit to ISLAMABAD & return): 6000 km
Ø Daily BETA during Assembly meets : Rs.500
Ø Charge for 1st class (A/C) in train : Free (For any number of times all over PAKISTAN)
Ø Charge for Business Class in flights: Free for 40 trips / year (With wife or P.A.)
Ø Rent for Govt. hostel any where: Free
Ø Electricity costs at home : Free up to 50,000 units
Ø Local phone call charge : Free up to 1,70,000 calls
Ø TOTAL expense for a MNA per year : Rs. 32,000,000
Ø TOTAL expense for 5 years : Rs. 1,60,000,000
Ø For 534 MNA, the expense for 5 years : Rs. 85,440,000,000 (more than 800 corores)
And they are elected by THE PEOPLE OF PAKISTAN, through a democratic process of this world, not intruded into the assembly on their own or by any qualification.

This is how all our tax money is been swallowed and price hike on our regular commodities...
Think of the great democracy we have.............

Legal is legal, or not?

 

[SQ8]

Yaar, when i was doing door to door service in Balochistan with NADAR guys so that Balochis could have their CNICs so that we can get them jobs, this thought never crossed my mind, so i dont think it would now.

Apparently then there is serious disconnect between NADRA and those that sit in the passport offices. Even though they operate within the same systems. Point being.. koi bhi hadd ****** kar raha ho tu khoon tu khole ga.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

I don't know but why some of us continue to view armed forces as a burden to economy, yet they conveniently ignore civilian bureaucracy.

First look at the structure of Civilian bureaucrats. A person having done his CSS is inducted directly into management posts. Car, driver, A-class residence, clubs, medical everything. By the time he reached grade 21/22, the kind of perks he enjoys is a dream for many of us. 2 residential plots in Islamabad at retirement. Many of them get extensions or lucrative posts even at the ages of 85+

These things i mentioned above are complimentary for every CSP, but those who abuse can get away with much more. Last time i checked a Grade-22 officer is getting 150000/per month just for Petrol charges. Go see the residence of bureaucrats in GOR. Can you believe they are residing in 10-10 Kanals bungalows even.

Your judges are taking 6 lac salaries excluding other perks. A civilian bureaucrat is entitled for abroad treatment on government expenses in case of medical problems. Many avail this facility to its fullest. Rauf Klasara was reporting last week about a similar case where a PKR 200 million medical bill is presented for approval.

Now here you have thousands of Civilian/Judicial bureaucrats (federal and provincials) v/s some hundreds of Army Officers enjoying similar perks. Why so much hue and cry for a Grade-21 equivalent Army Brigadier availing perks but OK node for Ferderal Secretory?

If government want to cut down on perks then it should be for all including judges also.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

I don't know but why some of us continue to view armed forces as a burden to economy, yet they conveniently ignore civilian bureaucracy.

First look at the structure of Civilian bureaucrats. A person having done his CSS is inducted directly into management posts. Car, driver, A-class residence, clubs, medical everything. By the time he reached grade 21/22, the kind of perks he enjoys is a dream for many of us. 2 residential plots in Islamabad at retirement. Many of them get extensions or lucrative posts even at the ages of 85+

These things i mentioned above are complimentary for every CSP, but those who abuse can get away with much more. Last time i checked a Grade-22 officer is getting 150000/per month just for Petrol charges. Go see the residence of bureaucrats in GOR. Can you believe they are residing in 10-10 Kanals bungalows even.

Your judges are taking 6 lac salaries excluding other perks. A civilian bureaucrat is entitled for abroad treatment on government expenses in case of medical problems. Many avail this facility to its fullest. Rauf Klasara was reporting last week about a similar case where a PKR 200 million medical bill is presented for approval.

Now here you have thousands of Civilian/Judicial bureaucrats (federal and provincials) v/s some hundreds of Army Officers enjoying similar perks. Why so much hue and cry for a Grade-21 equivalent Army Brigadier availing perks but OK node for Ferderal Secretory?

If government want to cut down on perks then it should be for all including judges also.

All of the perks that you mention, for military, civil and judiciary are all LEGAL according to the Rule and Regulations.

Hence, they are all okay.

 

[Jango]

All of the perks that you mention, for military, civil and judiciary are all LEGAL according to the Rule and Regulations.

Hence, they are all okay.

And therein lies the problem...the majority of people whom we like to call tax chors aren't even stealing anything...they are perfectly within the system, they are completely abiding to the law.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

And therein lies the problem...the majority of people whom we like to call tax chors aren't even stealing anything...they are perfectly within the system, they are completely abiding to the law.

Yes Sir, but the law is made by those who benefit the most from it, so that is how we have the situation that we have, and that is also why it will not change, no matter who is in power.

Everybody is out to get their pound of flesh, LEGALLY, and therefore the nation will bleed to death if this continues.

 

[OrionHunter]

sir. I'm just wondering what makes you think the Pakistani military would even entertain this notion as for most of its history it has been entirely self-serving. As has been pointed out over the last few days and weeks- the military is having a pretty cushy time of things, they are not experiencing the "loadshedding", they are not having to pay certain bills (railways), they have their own industries (textiles and agro) from which they get additional revenue. Do you really think anyone in the Pakistani military would now consider this request when they have sat by and accepted this state of affairs for how many years now? What has changed? Why now would they stick their necks out?

As cliche as it is to say concerning Pakistan- "all countries have armies, but here, an army has a country."

And one doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out why the Pakistan Army has always raised the bogey of a military threat from India which needless to say, is non-existent.

Otherwise how will they justify those billions which they insist are required for the 'defense of the country against the infidels in the East who have always cast an evil eye on Pakistan to disintegrate it'?

And the sheeple have fallen hook, line, and sinker for this charade! And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason why there can never be peace between the two countries. Because if there is, then what would happen to the defense allocation in the country's budget?

So, any move towards peace by Pakistan's democratically elected government is, and will always be scuttled especially when things seem to be moving forward in the right direction, by violent action like the Mumbai pogrom.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

And one doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out why the Pakistan Army has always raised the bogey of a military threat from India which needless to say, is non-existent.

Otherwise how will they justify those billions which they insist are required for the 'defense of the country against the infidels in the East who have always cast an evil eye on Pakistan to disintegrate it'?

And the sheeple have fallen hook, line, and sinker for this charade! And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason why there can never be peace between the two countries. Because if there is, then what would happen to the defense allocation in the country's budget?

So, any move towards peace by Pakistan's democratically elected government is, and will always be scuttled especially when things seem to be moving forward in the right direction.

The funniest post in this thread. Please dont waste your valuable time here as this thread has nothing to do with India or your thoughts and intentions towards Pakistan. Enough said. Thnks