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Because every thread about Arab, or Muslim achievements, attracts the usual trolls who deny, deny, deny...
If they present specific rebuttals backed by evidence, that's fine. But if people ignore the evidence presented and continue with generic statements about Arabs as a race, then that's not acceptable.
Bengali people are an ethnic group in India as well. They are Indian.
British empire started in Bengal....
Who said that they did NOT have culture? Please go and study Ibn Khaldun's Muqaddimah before coming here and spewing alot of nonsense that you have been brainwashed with.
Who are "they"? We can go through each and everyone and determine whether you are right or wrong. I'm saying that the vast majority of Islamic and secular scholars of the Middle East during the era of 600-1500 are non-Arabs, mostly Iranic.
Andalus had some arabic-speaking scholars (mostly berbers, moors and others).
Is your ignorance the deciding factor here? Iranians (which are broader than just Persians) have had many scientific achievements prior to the arrival of the Prophet Muhammad.
This is such a vast subject that I cannot possibly cover here, you are welcome to open a separate thread for this and we can go through the scientific achivements of pre-Muhammedan era. I can give you a starting point which is the academy of Gondishapoor which was the center of Science in the Middle East, basically an ancient university (Gundeshapur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
Iranians were not under Arab rule for long. The only two eras is firstly Ummayad era which lasted around 70 years in Iran, most of which had little effect on Iran. The Bani Ummayah adopted Persian as the language of the Diwan in Iraq for a long time, and by the time of Yazid III the Ummayan caliphs were writing poetry praising their ancestry as partially Persian.
The second era is around 90-100 years of Abbasid rule but it's doubtful if this can be called "Arab". The Abbasids introduced Iranian holidays as official holidays, and spread the Persian language far and wide. By the time of Mamun (whose wife and mother were Persian), the capital of Abbasid caliphate was changed to the center of Greater Iran (i.e. today's Khorasan region).
His father Haroon established the House of Wisdom that was designed, administered and executed by Persians.
Even during these two eras, as mentioned, the rulers (caliphs) were largely nominal overheads and the actual administration was left to the existing administrative infrastructure, i.e. Iranians.
You are trying to establish a link between Arab rule and Iranian science which is non-sensical. These rulers had for the most part no interest in such things (with the exception of a few) and the average ruler did not stay in power for more than ten years. Infact, much less than so.
This is meaningless drivel. Ancient Egyptians, Sumerians, Babylonians and others did not have, nor do they have, any relationship with "Arabs". They were not Arabs then and they are not Arabs today.
Please read what I read properly before jumping your horses. Where are the grammar books that precede what I quoted? Please provide them for me, I want to read them.
My input here is to clarify to people interested in history that what you posted is mostly inaccurate.
I did not edit my posts days after liar, I edited them on the same day, sometimes just a few minutes after posting the original text.
I see you modified this post too, what were you trying to remove? It's sad that I didn't get to read what were most likely insults & accusations thrown at me, I would have responded in a similar manner.
When you quote people, make sure that you quote the full sentences, do not skip a couple of sentences, link the quotes to the original posts effectively, don't modify them in the slightest.
My view on the subject is clear, there was hatred for Muslims during the Medieval ages or the Crusades, but that doesn't exist anymore.
Once again, I am not living in denial about the existence of Islamophobia. I have never considered Islamophobia to be a trivial issue. You have quoted my words out of context to intentionally misrepresent them. I doubt there will be another Crusade, but Islamophobia is rising in Western nations due to things like forced integration & crimes committed by Muslims, etc.
As for you consistently crying, complaining, whining, & screaming
My view was & still is that in modern times no one can distort history easily, there are way too many historians from all over the world, someone is bound to detect any distortion sooner or later.
Once those points had been discussed, you started crying, complaining, & whining
about Western textbooks not teaching the contributions of Arabs. That isn't entirely true either, since I showed you certain books in the West dealing with Arab civilization.
Do note one thing, the Arab civilization is not yours, & I haven't seen any Arab complain here the way you did.
Later on you brought Islamophobia into the discussion even after you told me to not bring Islamophobia in to our arguments.
Western historian routinely downplay or completely ignore the accomplishments of Muslim (Arab and Persian) scholars.[...]The amount of visceral hatred of Muslims and Arabs that permeates Western scholarship through the ages can only be appreciated by reading some of these "historians" and the language they used to describe these people.
Now by posting these out of context posts of mine, some of which seem to be tampered with, you intend to misrepresent my views.
These
http://www.defence.pk/forums/arab-defence/192107-arab-civilisation-then-now-9.html#post3145588
http://www.defence.pk/forums/arab-defence/192107-arab-civilisation-then-now-10.html#post3146033
are the posts you edited several HOURS after you agreed to end our discussion and where you added more personal attacks at me.
The only thing I took out was mention of the fact that I had observed this kind of behavior by you towards very well respected Indian members on the IVC thread.
I have NEVER modified any of your posts. I quote the relevant sentence(s) to highlight the parts to which I am responding. There is absolutely NOTHING that was taken out of context. If you don't have the guts to stand behind your own posts, then don't write them in the first place.
So, in one post, you deny that anti-Muslim hatred exists, and then, in another post, you admit it is rising but excuse it by saying
Control yourself.
Nonsense. This is what you wrote:
I then showed a research study which found precisely this bias, but you continue your denial in the face of evidence and, in turn, accuse me of racism because I pointed out this Western bias.
More personal attacks. It's becoming a pattern with you.
Again, as in the IVC thread.
I said Western textbooks tend to downplay, or exclude, Muslim contributions. And in response you showed me a specialist book and some books by Arab/Muslim authors. The mere fact that you had to resort to Arab/Muslim authors to support your point shows how weak your rebuttal is.
You can't seem to string together three sentences without descending into personal attacks.
Wrong. I mentioned anti-Muslim hatred originally in this post:
to which you responded by dismissing it as a conspiracy theory, and I told you about Bernard Lewis. Since you were unwilling to accept that this anti-Muslim hatred (which, incidentally, is just another term for Islamophobia) exists, I decided it was futile to persist.
Absolute lie Show me ONE single post of yours which I modified.
It's not my fault that your posts themselves are self-contradictory on the matter of anti-Muslim hatred in the West: in one post you deny it exists; and in another you excuse it by saying it's because of Muslim criminals.
Coming from an Afghani...
Now it's clear to me that you are deliberately resort to lying and trolling. Go read my links and see if they are Arabs or not. I will not waste any more time with you.
So what if I modified them? It is my right to do so, besides I did not drastically change the content anyway. In the first link you provided; the last sentence of that post was added by me only some time after the original response. I only made minor modifications later on. As for the second link you provided, that was my final response to you after you asked me to stop our discussion. Was that really too difficult for you to understand? Use your mind before throwing out accusations.
I stand behind all of my posts, it is you who deleted your post almost immediately after my response. Many of the sentences you quoted in the post you deleted were taken out of context. In some cases you had only quoted a few words. Sometimes the quotes you inserted did not link back to the exact post the quote was taken from. You even added some odd brackets to quotes you made. I think you might have modified the content that you quoted too.
Your views are extremely prejudiced, most of your hatred probably stems from what I assume is your jealousy of the white race lol.
I think that our argument started over the Ancient Greeks & Egyptians. It seems that you just couldn't stand the fact that I think that Ancient Greece is way cooler than Ancient Egypt. Remember one thing, the Arab civilization was never yours & the glory of the Arab civilization will belong only to the Arabs. Even if every one sang songs of praise about the Arab civilization, it still wouldn't be something for you to take pride in.
Those books written by Muslim authors were published in the West, the society that will read them will initially be the Western society. If they were so biased & filled with hatred, why even bother publishing them? I have heard that many authors find it hard to get their books published all over the world. I can show you loads of documents online, written by Europeans or people of European descent, that acknowledge the Arab civilization.
Here is something you may find interesting, it's about the Arab American National Museum.
Arab World Civilization and Culture
Arab American National Museum of Arab American History, Culture & Art
This is kind of off topic, but I noticed that many Pakistanis take the credit for the Arab Civilization, isn't that disturbing?
Saying that the "Arab civilization is not yours, & I haven't seen any Arab complain here the way you did" is not a personal attack. You lied once again.
At that time you weren't talking about Islamophobia in Western societies. All you had mentioned at that time was that Western historians are biased & stuff.
Absolute lie. You added personal insults to me six hours after you wrote those posts. The edit timestamps are there.
Spare me your "context" excuses. You have repeated those statements several times and there is no confusion about their "context".
Not ONE single sentence was modified and every SINGLE quote was linked to the source post accurately. I challenge you to find any such mismatch in any of my posts. The square brackets with ellipses "[...]" are a standard notation to mark irrelvant snips in a quote.
The only reason I deleted my post was because I honestly couldn't be bothered wasting any more time on you, knowing your atrocious manners from the IVC thread against the Indians.
And I deleted it before your response was posted. If I had seen your response, I would have left it there.
I quoted EXACTLY what you wrote. In response to my assertion that Western historians have shown anti-Muslim bias, you claimed it was all a conspiracy theory. When shown evidence of such bias, you ignored the evidence and continued with your silly rants about prejudice.
Your wording is explicitly contradictory.
The English language is what it is.
Words mean what they do; your denials notwithstanding.
Wit has never been your strong point. Please spare us the torture.
You have truly lost the plot. I am, however, enjoying your descent into madness with such gems as these.
According to you, white Western researchers like the ones at Hamilton University, who demonstrate Western bias, are racist against themselves.
Again, you need to come to reality and leave those delusions behind. I don't give two whits which civilization you think is "cool". Despite your puerile rant, my defence of Arab civilization has nothing to do with taking credit for anything. My comment was to point out the anti-Muslim bias in Western history books. That bias has been established by independent research, despite your refusal to accept reality.
It shows your level of debating skills. I already knew what to expect from your IVC thread against the Indians, but it's sad that you insist on putting it on display in every thread.
Thousands of books get published in the West, although I am not surprised that you don't understand the concept of exceptions proving the rule.
Nothing disturbing. As I mentioned, my interest in this is to point out anti-Muslim bias in general. Arabs are the focus only because this particular thread is about Arab civilization. In fact, in my earlier posts, I specifically mentioned both Arab and Persian scholars.
It is a personal attack since you are gatuitously making an issue of my nationality and race. Whether I am Arab or not is irrelevant to the discussion.
Duh! I specifically wrote about the "visceral hatred" for Muslims. That is the definition of Islamophobia, since you still don't get it.
Because it is a bald faced LIE you made up to deflect attention from your backflips.
You went back on your word and edited your posts several HOURS afterwards, adding insults and personal attacks onto me. When you do that, don't be surprised when you get called out for it.
Whatever, I don't care. Just because I edit my posts doesn't mean I am adding insults, alright?
you changing the topic from Ancient Greece all the way to what Western textbooks teach is proof that you are just here to hamper the discussion of this thread.
Wit has never been your strong point either, anyway, people can read all of our posts on this thread & decide the truth for themselves.
I never said white Western researcher were racist. That is just a case of self-criticism. It's perfectly fine to criticize your own society. I haven't lost the plot, I am just annoyed at how much of my time you have managed to waste.
I do understand the concept of "exceptions proving the rule", although, you might want to read about that idiom yourself.
The correct spelling is "gratuitously".
I don't think you get it, the first time I brought up the issue of Muslims committing crimes in the West, you told me to go open another thread for general discussion of Islamophobia. Previously, the discussion was only about your claims of Western historians distorting the truth & stuff.
**********
Al-Khwarizmi, credited with the founding of algebra, was inspired by the need to find a more accurate and comprehensive method of ensuring precise land divisions so that the Koran could be carefully obeyed in the laws of inheritance. The writings of Leonardo da Vinci, Leonardo Fibonacci of Pisa, and Master Jacob of Florence show the Arab influence on mathematical studies in European universities.
Khawarezmi is an Iranian scientist.
The reformation of the calendar, with a margin of error of only one day in five thousand years, was also a contribution of Arab intellect.
Which calendar is this? The most accurate calendar of the era was/is the Jalali calendar (Iranian calendars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) which is solar and is largely based on the works of Khayyam (an Iranian).
The arabic calendar is lunar and has no relation to the Western (solar) calendar. I'm assuming the text is referring to the Gregorian calendar reform.
ASTRONOMY
Like algebra, the astrolabe was improved with religion in mind. It was used to chart the precise time of sunrises and sunsets, and to determine the period for fasting during the month of Ramadan, Arab astronomers of the Middle Ages compiles astronomical charts and tables in observatories such as those at Palmyra and Maragha.
Which Arab astronomers in Maragheh? It was managed by Naser al-Din Tusi (Maragheh observatory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
Gradually, they were able to determine the length of a degree, to establish longitude and latitude, and to investigate the relative speeds of sound and light. Al-Biruni, considered one of the greatest scientists of all time, discussed the possibility of the earth‘s rotation on its own axis — a theory proven by Galileo six centuries later.
Biruni is an Iranian. (Ab)
Arab astronomers such as al-Fezari, al-Farghani, and al-Zarqali added to the works of Ptolemy and the classic pioneers in the development of the magnetic compass and the charting of the zodiac. Distinguished astronomers from all over the world gathered to work at Maragha in the thirteenth century.
Fazari was Iranian (Ibr), Farghani was Iranian (Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Kath) and Zarqali was spanish (converted to Islam) (Ab).
Maragheh (located in Iran) which has been mentioned twice now has nothing to do with Arabs. It was during the Il Khani (Persianate Mongol) era.
Al-Razi, a medical encyclopedist of the ninth century, was an authority on contagion. Among his many volumes of medical surveys, perhaps the most famous is the Kitab al-Mansuri. It was used in Europe until the sixteenth century. Al-Razi was the first to diagnose smallpox and measles, to associate these diseases and others with human contamination and contagion, to introduce such remedies as mercurial ointment, and to use animal gut for sutures.
Zakariyya Razi was an Iranian (Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
The famous scientist-philosopher known in Europe as Avicenna was Ibn Sina, an Arab. He was the greatest writer of medicine in the Middle Ages, and his Canon was required reading throughout Europe until the seventeenth century. Avicenna did pioneer work in mental health, and was a forerunner of today‘s psychotherapists. He believed that some illnesses were psychosomatic, and he sometimes led patients back to a recollection of an incident buried in the subconscious in order to explain the present ailment.
Ibn Sina was Iranian (Avicenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
In the fourteenth Century, when the Great Plague ravaged the world, Ibn Khatib and Ibn Khatima of Granada recognized that it was spread by contagion. In his book, Kitabu‘l Maliki, al-Maglusi showed a rudimentary conception of the capillary system; an Arab from Syria, Ibn al-Nafis, discovered the fundamental principles of pulmonary circulation.
Ibn Khatib/Khatima's origins are clear from the text. There is no "al-Maglusi" that showed the capillary system. His name was al-Majusi and he was Iranian ('Ali ibn al-'Abbas al-Majusi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
The brilliant blue tiled done of the Mosque of Bibi Khanum, Timu‘s (Tamerlane) favorite wife, catches the visitor‘s eye in Samarkand. Here, as well as in the complex of tombs called Shah-I-Zinda (the Living Prince), much of the old beauty is being returned to its former elegance through restoration.
The architectural style of Samarkand mentioned above is distinctly Iranian and furthermore has nothing to do with Arabs. It's a timurid construction (i.e. during Tamerlane era).
Ibn Battuta, an Arab, must have been the hardiest traveler of his time. He was not a professional geographer, but in his travels by horse, camel and sailboat, he covered over seventy five thousand miles. His wanderings, over a period of decades at a time, took him to Turkey, Bulgaria, Russia, Persia, and central Asia. He spent several years in India, and from there was appointed ambassador to the emperor of China. After China, he toured all of North Africa and many places in western Africa. Ibn Battuta‘s book, Rihla (journey), is filled with information on the politics, social conditions, and economics of the places he visited.
Ibn Batuta was a berber, however he was not a scientist and many of his stories have been doubted.
A twenty five year old Arab, captured by Italian pirates in 1520, has received much attention in the West. He was Hassan al-Wazzan, who became a protégé of Pope Leo X. Leo persuaded the young man to become a Christian, gave him his own name, and later convinced him to write an account of his travels on the them almost unknown African continent. Hassan became Leo Africanus and his book was translated into several European languages. For nearly two hundred year, Leo Africanus was read as the most authoritative source on Africa.
Moorish origin.
The ancient Arabs loved the land, for in earth and water they saw the source of life and the greatest of God‘s gifts. They were guided by the words attributed to the Prophet: “Whoever bringeth the dead land to life… for him is reward therein.” They were pioneers in botany. In the twelfth century an outstanding reference work, Al-Filahat by Ibn al-Awam, described more than five hundred different plants and methods of grafting, soil conditioning, and curing of diseased vines and trees.
Ibn al-Awam was a spaniard.
Peach, apricot, and loquat trees were transplanted in southern Europe by Arab soldiers. The hardy olive was encouraged to grow in the sandy soil of Greece, Spain, and Sicily. From India they introduced the cultivation of sugar, and from Egypt they brought cotton to European markets. “May there always be coffee at your house” was their expression, wishing prosperity and the joy of hospitality for their friends. Coffee was qahwah that which gives strength, and derivatives of that name are used today in almost every country of the world. They also perfected the storage of soft fruits to be eaten fresh throughout the year.
Peach and Apricot originated in Greater Iran. Sugar is from India and Coffee is from Ethiopia. Olive is from the Mediterranean region and was there since the ancient era. I don't see how Arabs contributed to food production.
Concerning Arab contributions to engineering, one can look to the water wheel, cisterns, irrigation, water wells at fixed levels, and the water clock. In 860, the three sons of Musa ibn Shakir published the Book on Artifices, which described a hundred technical constructions.
The Banu Musa brothers were Iranian (Ban).
Al-Haytham (known in Europe as Alhazen) wrote a book in the tenth century on optics, Kitab Al Manazir. He explored optical illusions, the rainbow, and the camera obscura (which led to the beginning of photographic instruments). He also made discoveries in atmospheric refractions (mirages and comets, for example), studied the eclipse, and laid the foundation for the later development of the microscope and the telescope. Al-Haytham did not limit himself to one branch of the sciences, but like many of the Arab scientists and thinkers, explored and made contributions to the fields of physics, anatomy and mathematics.
Ibn Haytham is claimed to be Arab by some arabs but majority of historical commentators consider him to be Iranian. He was not under Arab era, but during the Iranian Buyid dynasty.
A Thousand and One Nights and Omar Khayyam‘s Rubaiyat are among the best loved and most widely read of Arab literature.
This is ludicrous. The Rubaiyat is written in Persian and this text is claiming that it's the most widely read of Arab literature?
Among the well-known philosophers of the medieval world were al-Kindi, who contributed to the work of Plato and Aristotle; al-Farabi, who made a model of Man‘s community; Avicenna (Ibn Sina), who developed theories on form and matter that were incorporated into medieval Christian Scholasticism; Ibn Khaldun, who expounded the cycles of a state in his Muqqadimah (Introduction).
Farabi was Iranian (Al-Farabi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Avicenna is already mentioned above as an Iranian scholar. Ibn Khaldun was berber although he claimed he was Arab due to political reasons. But his book is filled with praise and fascination with berbers. Read more about it here: Ibn Khaldun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There is lots more that I did not comment on, you may excuse me but I simply don't have the time.
Rarely have I seen a post with so many inaccurracies... I don't have time to comment on every single line but I will make it brief.
I saw your posts before, and then saw them several hours later where you had added the cheap, personal attacks.
My point is proven by the fact that you continue to hurl more insults in almost every post. This is the same uncouth behavior you had towards others in the IVC thread.
The topic here is Arab civilization, not Greek. The discussion was about the lack of credit to Arab (and Muslim) civilization. Mention of Greek civilization was in the context of Western coverage of Arab/Muslim civilizations.
Brilliant rejoinder. Thanks for proving my point about wit.
I pointed out the flaw in your statement that anyone who criticizes bias must be motivated by racism. The cheap shot you took at me exposed your own logical inconsistency.
Another brilliant rebuttal. Keep it up!
Thanks for demonstrating your level of debating once again. Good thing is that you never disappoint.
Here's what I wrote, "This discussion is not about criminals but the history of science. If you want a general discussion about Islamophobia in Europe, there are plenty of threads already on that subject."
In other words, only discuss Islamophobia as it relates to the history of science and its depiction in the West, not a general debate about criminals or other justifications.
That is why I posted the Hamilton study which showed anti-Muslim bias in academic curricula relating to history.