The Arab civilisation then and now

[Developereo]

You asked for Western textbooks & I provided you with them.

And you still don't see that most of them were written by Muslims or Arabs. The vast majority of books/videos authored by non-Muslims in the West typically downplay Muslim contributions. That is precisely why the authors you listed need to set the record straight in the first place.

I am not trying to earn the badge of being progressive. It's you that keeps sticking to his prejudiced views. Almost everyone all over the world has watched & been influenced by Western media. All of us have studied Western textbooks. That is undeniable. The Westerners or particularly the British & Germans I have spoken to regarding this subject do know about the Islamic contributions to science & technology. There is the possibility that the people I spoke to were exceptions to the norm.

There is nothing prejudiced about pointing out the truth of Western bias towards history. You can google 'western bias history' if you need more information.

As for the average Joe on the Western street, I doubt that an average Joe would know much about anything in any part of the world.

By definition, we are discussing educated laymen who do know something about science and its history. Even those who do, in the West, are mostly ignorant of Islamic contributions.

I am not begging for a badge on being progressive. Keep your insults to yourself, you should however be presented with an award for trolling in this post.

You are not helping your case by insulting me and calling me prejudiced just to hide your own ignorance of the matter and to defend European bigotry through the ages by shifting the discussion to criminals. Lame.

You missed my point entirely as well. What I meant was that only ignorant people would go learn about Islam from someone who hates Islam, whereas those with common sense would stick to neutral sources. So are you saying that every European loves Bernard Lewis? That is a generalization, don't you think?

I never said "every". What I wrote was that anti-Muslim bigots ... read my post again. It's crystal clear for anyone who reads what is actually written.

Nice try, but modifying your post to get rid of insults won't help you here.

I only modified them because I did not want to sink to your level.

 

[Developereo]

Kelsey Rice '10 Looks At Western Bias in Approaches to Middle Eastern History - News, Sports, Events - Hamilton College

While studying the Crusades in a class at Hamilton last year, history major Kelsey Rice '10 was intrigued how Middle Eastern thinkers were "light years ahead" of intellectual thinkers in Medieval Europe, yet little-studied in traditional history courses. Seeking to better understand the history of this region, Rice applied for and received an Emerson Summer Research Collaboration Grant with Associate Professor of History Shoshana Keller to investigate the foundations of the rapidly growing field of Middle Eastern History. Her research specifically examined flaws in the Western conception of the Middle East, with her project titled "Misinterpreting the Middle East: Western Bias in Approaches in Middle Eastern History."

Rice focused on the "founding fathers of Western Middle Eastern history," who were 19th century British and French imperialists writing about the history of the regions their countries had colonized. The viewpoints of these writers were colored by Social Darwinism and white supremacy, which led them to be critical of Middle Eastern people and culture. European travelers, and later historians, would tend to perceive their travels in the Middle East through the lens of the stereotypes associated with the "Orient," ignoring contradictory information and maintaining their attitude of superiority.

One reason for such stereotypes, according to Rice, was that they allowed early European writers to negate the perceived threat from Middle Eastern societies. Because the cultures of Persia and Egypt had long histories, including prolonged periods where these societies were more intellectually developed and "civilized" than contemporary European nations, imperialists felt they had to denigrate the inhabitants of the region and indicate clear differences between Middle Easterners in the past and in the present.

European writers described residents of formerly developed cultures, such as in Persia and Egypt, and those with lighter skin (and so closer to the imperialists in their racist hierarchy) in feminized terms emphasizing these individuals' lack of "manly exuberance" and lowering their status below the writers. Conversely, individuals from nomadic cultures without a history of development were described according to the more friendly stereotype of the "noble savage," since they were not seen as a threat to Europeans' status. Maintaining these stereotypes allowed European writers to view the Middle East as the "barbarian land of fallen empires" that featured prominently in the Bible and classical texts without threatening Europeans' legitimacy to rule these areas in the 19th century.

These stereotypes were able to persist because of the low quality of evidence available to initial historians. Because travel to the Middle East was infrequent, and British imperialists felt no need to talk to the locals, many writers made judgments about the past from fragmentary statues or coins that could be interpreted as the writers wished. While Rice emphasized that the study of artifacts is still a valid historical technique, early European historians tended to draw conclusions that overreached the evidence available and confirmed the writers' biases.

While maintaining these stereotypes, European writers tended to avoid critically examining their own cultures. For example, many writers criticized elements of fanaticism and fantasy in the Koran without comparing these to the equally fantastic Biblical text of the Book of Revelation. However, some writers adopted a more accepting attitude towards Islam, devoting study to the subject because of their intellectual interest. Rice emphasized how this mixture of racism and fascination requires modern historians to be empathetic to the views of imperialist writers, not simply condemn their writings as irreparably biased.

However, Rice mentioned a few major areas of Middle Eastern history in which the bias of Western writers shone particularly clearly. Women's history in the Middle East is problematic because Western writers viewed the Middle East as a "sensual" place dominated by harems, concubines, women as spoils of war, and "forbidden beauties locked away in hidden gardens." The proliferation of these unrealistic views of Middle Eastern women makes it "hard to know what Middle Eastern women were like" for a modern historian. Western writers also tended to view the Orient as place where citizens lacked free will, and thus had to be governed for their own good (a convenient fiction for an imperialist power).

Rice mentioned that biased portrayal of the Middle East remains relevant today; she cited establishing shots of crumbling mosques in news coverage of the region, which convey the idea of an area stuck in the past. Even Harry Kissinger, a recent intellectual contributor, viewed the Middle East as underdeveloped because the area had failed to realize the Newtonian Revolution of scientific inquiry; to Rice, this is a convenient way to avoid acknowledging partitioning and imperialism by European powers as a contribution to the region's difficulties.

Rice's research has confirmed her observation that Westerners have been "misconceptualizing" the Middle East "for a really long time"; her research this summer thus reflects a "bid for understanding" of these misconceptions.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

And you still don't see that most of them were written by Muslims or Arabs. The vast majority of books/videos authored by non-Muslims in the West typically downplay Muslim contributions. That is precisely why the authors you listed need to set the record straight in the first place.

I did see the names of the authors of those books, don't worry. The record is being set straight isn't it? Why on earth are you obsessed with them acknowledging Arab contributions while you yourself admitted that the specialists in particular fields would be aware of them in the first place?

There is nothing prejudiced about pointing out the truth of Western bias towards history. You can google 'western bias history' if you need more information.

I already admitted that in the past & especially during the Medieval ages there was hatred for Muslims. That however, is rare in modern times.

By definition, we are discussing educated laymen who do know something about science and its history. Even those who do, in the West, are mostly ignorant of Islamic contributions.

So what? Why does it bother you that much?

You are not helping your case by insulting me and calling me prejudiced just to hide your own ignorance of the matter and to defend European bigotry through the ages by shifting the discussion to criminals. Lame.

I did not insult you in that post, stop lying, it's your own posts that happen to be lame & filled with prejudiced views. As I said earlier, there is little if any attempt in modern time at claiming the accomplishments of other civilizations. I also accepted that during the Medieval ages there was hatred for Muslims, but such hatred isn't common anymore.

Have you heard of Afro-centrists? They aren't Europeans & they attempt to claim the history of a variety of people. Some of them even claim that Jesus was black, even though we both know that he was Middle Eastern.

I never said "every". What I wrote was that anti-Muslim bigots ... read my post again. It's crystal clear for anyone who reads what is actually written.

You said & I quote; "the Europeans love Bernard Lewis because he tells them what they want to hear about Islam". That is the generalization.

I only modified them because I did not want to sink to your level.

It's me who is being forced to sink to your level. I would have had a respectful & polite discussion had you not resorted to insults.

 

[Hyperion]

Then = Net exporters of slave(s).
Now = Net importers of slave(s).

 

[Developereo]

Why on earth are you obsessed with them acknowledging Arab contributions while you yourself admitted that the specialists in particular fields would be aware of them in the first place?

The issue has never been what specialists know. Of course, they know the true history.

The whole debate is the popular perception that Muslims in general, and Arabs in particular, are incapable of making, and have not made any, contributions to science and civilization. This thread itself contains statements by various people to that effect.

I did not insult you in that post, stop lying, it's your own posts that happen to be lame & filled with prejudiced views.

This is what you wrote

those of you who believe in these odd claims of discrimination & weird conspiracy theories may continue to do so.

Islamophobia is a very serious issue and directly affects the life of many people. To trivially dismiss it, as you did, as a conspiracy theory is insulting to the people so affected.

As I said earlier, there is little if any attempt in modern time at claiming the accomplishments of other civilizations.

The issue is not about claiming others' achievements, but denying that they existed in the first place.

I also accepted that during the Medieval ages there was hatred for Muslims, but such hatred isn't common anymore.

Islamophobia is on the rise and it will be combated by people who understand the threat, not by people who live in denial.

Have you heard of Afro-centrists? They aren't Europeans & they attempt to claim the history of a variety of people. Some of them even claim that Jesus was black, even though we both know that he was Middle Eastern.

When African media dominates the globe and sets the agenda, then we can focus on them.

You said & I quote; "the Europeans love Bernard Lewis because he tells them what they want to hear about Islam". That is the generalization.

And nowhere does that equate to "every single European". Just as "Western academia" does not equate to "every single book". You need to accept English sentences as they are written, not jump to extreme interpretations.

It's me who is being forced to sink to your level. I would have had a respectful & polite discussion had you not resorted to insults.

I already pointed out your statement above dismissing people as conspiracy theorists. Here's another post by you where you throw out accusations of racism at me.

your own claims made out of prejudice & racism?

 

[Developereo]

^^ Anyway, our side discussion is not serving any purpose. I would let the thread return to the topic of Arab civilization throughout history.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

The issue has never been what specialists know. Of course, they know the true history.

The whole debate is the popular perception that Muslims in general, and Arabs in particular, are incapable of making, and have not made any, contributions to science and civilization.

Lol, I seriously doubt that regular people think that Muslims are incapable of contributing to science & civilization. The Muslim world today comprises of some of the most ancient & famous civilizations around. Civilizations like Babylon, Persia, Egypt & the Carthaginians are quite famous. Anyone who knows them would logically know that those people today happen to be Muslims.

This is what you wrote

Islamophobia is a very serious issue and directly affects the life of many people. To trivially dismiss it, as you did, as a conspiracy theory is insulting to the people so affected.

I was not referring to Islamophobia, but to idea that Westerners are intentionally trying to steal or claim the accomplishments of Muslims. Don't quote my sentences out of context. I advise anyone reading this go back & read my full post.

The issue is not about claiming others' achievements, but denying that they existed in the first place.

No sensible person would deny Islamic achievements. Almost everyone who studied mathematics here knows stuff like the word "algebra" comes from the word "al-jebr", as in many algebraic concepts come from Islamic roots.

Islamophobia is on the rise and it will be combated by people who understand the threat, not by people who live in denial.

Once again, I am not living in denial about the existence of Islamophobia. I have never considered Islamophobia to be a trivial issue. You have quoted my words out of context to intentionally misrepresent them. I doubt there will be another Crusade, but Islamophobia is rising in Western nations due to things like forced integration & crimes committed by Muslims, etc.

Remember that you stated:

This discussion is not about criminals but the history of science. If you want a general discussion about Islamophobia in Europe, there are plenty of threads already on that subject.

Don't bring up the topic of Islamophobia on this thread, our discussion was about the contributions of civilizations & the alleged attempts at distorting their history.

When African media dominates the globe and sets the agenda, then we can focus on them.

The funny thing is that Afro-centrists tend to exist in the West, & most likely use Western media rather than the African media.

And nowhere does that equate to "every single European". Just as "Western academia" does not equate to "every single book". You need to accept English sentences as they are written, not jump to extreme interpretations.

Go & read your sentence again, I have not jumped to extreme interpretations. You need to elucidate your responses more.

I already pointed out your statement above dismissing people as conspiracy theorists. Here's another post by you where you throw out accusations of racism at me.

I never called you a conspiracy theorists, although I did mention that those who believe in conspiracy theories may continue to do so. Conspiracy theories here refers to belief held by some people here of intentional attempts in modern times to distort & conceal history.

^^ Anyway, our side discussion is not serving any purpose. I would let the thread return to the topic of Arab civilization throughout history.

Alright, our discussion is over. In the end though, the West can teach its people whatever the hell they want & we can teach our people whatever the hell we want. It's not our right to decide whatever other nations choose to teach their citizens as long as they aren't harming anyone else.

 

[alighor]

Most of this thread is filled with historical inaccuracies. Furthermore, there is an issue of definition here what is meant by "the Arab civilization". According to many scholars, such as Ibn Khaldun, Arabs did not have a sedentary culture.

Most of the "arab" scholars listed here (and elsewhere for that matter) are usually not arabs. The vast majority of islamic (from all sects) and secular scholars during the "muslim era" are Iranian or Persianate.

Furthermore, the notion that Egyptians, Sumerians or Babylonians were "arabs" is ludicrous.

"Arabs" defined by the language as suggested here by some actually contradicts that since Arabic was not defined formally until Iranians formalized the grammar (with the Qur'an being the standard).

So please clear the definitions up and stop being bigots and there might be a good discussion.

 

[Wright]

I wonder if the Japanese, Koreans or Chinese teach these Arab contributions in their school books.

 

[aakash_2410]

I'm sure arab would not be proud if indian were genetically related

And by the way why would Indians (most of whom are Indo-Aryans) would like to be genetically related to Semite people with Afro hair?

And seriously 1500 years old civilisation?
Egyptians did it 7000 years ago
Greeks did it 6000 years ago
Chinese and Indians did it 5000/5,500 years ago
Persians did it 4.500 years ago.

By the way your contribution to Mathematics can be controversial. Because, Hindu-Arabic numeral system was developed by Indians, Arabs just did some changes.

Hindu

 

[The SC]

I really don't care about the origins of the Berbers. From what I know, they are indigenous to North Africa though some of them may have roots in the Middle East, especially in Phoenicia, since in the past many people from from Phoenicia traveled to North Africa.

You can refer to the source below too.


Berber people - Wikipedia, the free encyclo[/B]pedia



A man once visited the Prophet's mosque in Madinah. There he saw a group of people sitting and discussing their faith together. Among them were Salman (who came from Persia), Suhayb who grew up in the Eastern Roman empire and was regarded as a Greek, and Bilal who was an African. The man then said:

"If the (Madinan) tribes of Aws and Khazraj support Muhammad, they are his people (that is, Arabs like him). But what are these people doing here?"

The Prophet became very angry when this was reported to him. Straightaway, he went to the mosque and summoned people to a Salat. He then addressed them saying:

"O people, know that the Lord and Sustainer is One. Your ancestor is one, your faith is one. The Arabism of anyone of you is not from your mother or father. It is no more than a tongue (language). Whoever speaks Arabic is an Arab."

Source

The ancestors of modern Arabs did speak languages other than Arabic as their mother tongue, that is the reason they never referred to themselves as Arabs. Their descendants however are Arabs mainly because they speak Arabic.

Humans are a species, & another member has already commented upon your odd claim of there being no races. The differences between us are certainly greater than skin color. You lost most of your credibility when you said that Arabs were Aryans, & your attempts at linking the word Aryan with the word "Arab" or as I remember the word "Arabyan" were extremely hilarious.

There is no need for people to forget about or destroy their differences to tolerate each other. Humans must learn to live together peacefully by respecting & tolerating each other's differences.




You might find these links interesting:

Pythagorean theorem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Babylonian Pythagoras

What exactly is the problem with the mathematical concept's name remaining as Pythogaras's theorem? After all it is Pythoagaras's work due to which most of the world learnt about this mathematical concept. The Babylonians may have known about it earlier, but there is no proof of Pythogaras stealing this knowledge from them. Besides, as far as I know, the Babylonians did not teach the world about this mathematical concept. I remember reading that the modern day "Arabic" numerals, already existed in Sanskrit. The only reason they are referred to as "Arabic" numerals is because the Arabs introduced them to the Europeans. Sure, some people refer to them as the "Hindu-Arabic" numerals, but the common name is still "Arabic" numerals. Is this in your opinion another case of credit not being given where it is due?

The point made earlier about Western sources being biased & not giving credit where credit is due has been refuted in these cases. There has been no attempt whatsoever at concealing the accomplishments of other civilizations.

How can you or other members refute facts, when you say that, Jacob the son of Isaac was known as Israel?
The Israelites or BaniIsrael have been around much before, I 'll refer you to Surat al Baqara!
Than you show your little education by saying Humans are a species instead of a specie, it shows how in your subconscious mind you are a racist, or you believe in casts.
Now Please tell me why the majority of people and scientists say 'The Human Race' when they talk about Humans.

What you know is obviously not much, be it on the origins of the barbers or any other subject. End of discussion.

And by the way why would Indians (most of whom are Indo-Aryans) would like to be genetically related to Semite people with Afro hair?

And seriously 1500 years old civilisation?
Egyptians did it 7000 years ago
Greeks did it 6000 years ago
Chinese and Indians did it 5000/5,500 years ago
Persians did it 4.500 years ago.

By the way your contribution to Mathematics can be controversial. Because, Hindu-Arabic numeral system was developed by Indians, Arabs just did some changes.

Hindu

You are making a grave mistake, showing your bias against Islam, although you want to hide it by not mentioning the Word Islam , you are bashing against the 1500 years old Muslim civilisation , the Arabs pre-date all the civilisations you have mentioned, as they were the Mesopotamians, the Egyptians and more.

Most of this thread is filled with historical inaccuracies. Furthermore, there is an issue of definition here what is meant by "the Arab civilization". According to many scholars, such as Ibn Khaldun, Arabs did not have a sedentary culture.

Most of the "arab" scholars listed here (and elsewhere for that matter) are usually not arabs. The vast majority of islamic (from all sects) and secular scholars during the "muslim era" are Iranian or Persianate.













Furthermore, the notion that Egyptians, Sumerians or Babylonians were "arabs" is ludicrous.

"Arabs" defined by the language as suggested here by some actually contradicts that since Arabic was not defined formally until Iranians formalized the grammar (with the Qur'an being the standard).

So please clear the definitions up and stop being bigots and there might be a good discussion.

So from where did the Arabic Koran came from? Do you have any Idea? what did the Arabs speak before Arabic?

 

[Wright]

Does anyone have detialed info on the genetic's of ancient Egyptians?
How close are they to the current Egyptian population genetically?

 

[The SC]

Why it might have been other way around when what was known as Arab numerals in Europe, was called Hindu numerals in Arab.

Indian Mathematicians composed books on arithmetic, algebra, plane trigonometry, and spherical trigonometry. It also contains continued fractions, quadratic equations, sums-of-power series, and a table of sines back in 500CA.









Brahmagupta derived the formula to calculate area of any cyclic quadrilateral (one that can be inscribed in a circle) given the lengths of the sides.

Talking about Algebra. Here's something for you.



Units: Roman and "Arabic" Numerals

Aryabhatiya and Aryabhata !!! Just Hindu pronunciation of Arabia and Arab.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

How can you or other members refute facts, when you say that, Jacob the son of Isaac was known as Israel?
The Israelites or BaniIsrael have been around much before, I 'll refer you to Surat al Baqara!

Quran 19:49

So when he had left them and those they worshipped other than Allah , We gave him Isaac and Jacob, and each [of them] We made a prophet.

It's a well known fact that Prophet Jacob is also called Israel, he is the only prophet besides the last prophet to have more than one name. I advise you to go learn a thing or two about religion before preaching your beliefs to us.

Than you show your little education by saying Humans are a species instead of a specie, it shows how in your subconscious mind you are a racist, or you believe in casts.
Now Please tell me why the majority of people and scientists say 'The Human Race' when they talk about Humans.

So I made a mistake by pluralizing the word "specie", no big deal. It seems you have run out of points to argue on. I am definitely not racist & nor do I believe in castes. Just because I believe that different races do exist does not make me a racist, most of the world still believes in the existence of human races. As I said earlier, denying that differences exist isn't necessary to promote tolerance. Mankind must learn to live peacefully by respecting each others' differences. The term "human race" is generic rather than scientific.

What you know is obviously not much, be it on the origins of the barbers or any other subject. End of discussion.

The origin of the "barbers"? All you are doing here is throwing around insults. As I recall, I remember that you made up the word "Arabyan" & tried to relate it to the word "Aryan". That clearly tells us that you don't know anything either. In any case, our discussion is over.

 

[The SC]

Does anyone have detialed info on the genetic's of ancient Egyptians?
How close are they to the current Egyptian population genetically?

About 95%.