The Arab civilisation then and now

[p(-)0ENiX]

Read my post again. That is exactly what I wrote.

Both of us had similar view points on that subject, but that does not make them exactly the same.

Nonsense. Western historian routinely downplay or completely ignore the accomplishments of Muslim (Arab and Persian) scholars. Many of the core concepts in modern optics, medicine and others are due to Muslim scholars but you would never hear it in Western school curricula. The Hindu accomplishments on mathematics are acknowledged by Western historians only because that takes away from Arab claims.

Nonsense? Really? Ancient Muslim Arab & Persian scholars are given credit for their efforts.

Medicine in the medieval Islamic world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The last sentence of your paragraph is funny because it accuses the west of selective discrimination, & I have found no proof of that whatsoever. Remember that history today is studied by people from many parts of the world, this reduces the chances of bias considerably if not completely.

The amount of visceral hatred of Muslims and Arabs that permeates Western scholarship through the ages can only be appreciated by reading some of these "historians" and the language they used to describe these people.

What is the cause of this alleged hatred? Are you referring to the hatred present among Christians during the Crusades? You do realize that those times are long gone don't you?

Let us agree to disagree then, those of you who believe in these odd claims of discrimination & weird conspiracy theories may continue to do so.

 

[LaBong]

" Many of the core concepts in modern optics, medicine and others are due to Muslim scholars but you would never hear it in Western school curricula."


Would you please elaborate, as for all you know, sushruta might have covered it a long time back.

 

[Deno]

Arabs civilizations were never of any importance and most inventions during the Islamic period were made by Persians or based on Indian or Greek science.

Moronic post....

Arabs were the ones who translated old Greek texts and Arabs were the one who improved on that texts afterwards...

 

[Bhairava]

" Many of the core concepts in modern optics, medicine and others are due to Muslim scholars but you would never hear it in Western school curricula."


Would you please elaborate, as for all you know, sushruta might have covered it a long time back.

Well in that case, Sushruta might have been born in the region comprising modern day Pakistan...

 

[Developereo]

Nonsense? Really? Ancient Muslim Arab & Persian scholars are given credit for their efforts.

Medicine in the medieval Islamic world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you understand the difference between wikipedia and official academic curricula? Or Western textbooks on the history of science? Many of them ignore Muslim contributions outright.

The last sentence of your paragraph is funny because it accuses the west of selective discrimination, & I have found no proof of that whatsoever.

Then you need to come down to the real world. This thread itself points out various instances. Whether they were Arab or Persian is secondary; the fact is that Muslim accomplishments are woefully undermentioned, or outright ignored, in most standard Western textbooks.

Remember that history today is studied by people from many parts of the world, this reduces the chances of bias considerably if not completely.

Western media still dominates the globe and the Western narrative takes precedence. Eastern countries are starting to assert their claims on history, but it's a slow process. The Indians, Chinese and, thankfully, the Turks, have started to set the record straight in many instances, but there's a long way to go.

What is the cause of this alleged hatred? Are you referring to the hatred present among Christians during the Crusades? You do realize that those times are long gone don't you?

I am talking about the anti-Muslim hatred present through the ages in Western, especially European, thought. From the days of Dante to modern day historians. Do you know that, even today, the standard authority on Islam in Europe are people like Bernard Lewis -- people who are rabidly anti-Muslim?

" Many of the core concepts in modern optics, medicine and others are due to Muslim scholars but you would never hear it in Western school curricula."


Would you please elaborate, as for all you know, sushruta might have covered it a long time back.

Basic laws of refraction; the concept that the eye does not work like a radar (as was previously thought), but light originates outside the eye.

For others, I suggest you see the videos and text earlier in this thread.

 

[Mosamania]

Moronic post....

Arabs were the ones who translated old Greek texts and Arabs were the one who improved on that texts afterwards...

Here is my theory:

Science output is an entity and is an integral part of human evolution, where it is located it is based on the people there who would accept it.
Translation : science flourishes in the free thinking (Liberal) societies the most. Greek sciences were "forbidden" in Europe because it went against their religious beliefs. While Arabs at the time were more open minded and were the first to create universities and ministries of science at the time to cultivate free thought there. Free thought travels from one people to the next as part of the natural human progression.

Baghdad university had a large science debate hall where people of all thought would come and debate their view points in almost everything, from science to religion. "Doubters" AKA "Atheists" were the most active debaters there and they were in fact encouraged to do so at the time. Mongol invasion and the killing of many scientists and Philosophers etc. Made a huge toll on the scientific production and in fact at that time what was more damaging was sectarian thought begun to rise for obvious historical reasons for anyone who have read on the subject.

All of these factors made a reversal in the "Free thought" process.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

Do you understand the difference between wikipedia and official academic curricula? Or Western textbooks on the history of science? Many of them ignore Muslim contributions outright.

Lol, I do know the difference between Wikipedia & official academic curricula. Have you read about the Canon of medicine?

The Canon of Medicine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is a textbook called "The House of Wisdom", but it's written by a British-Iraqi physicist.

The House of Wisdom: How Arabic Science Saved Ancient Knowledge and Gave Us the Renaissance by Jim Al-Khalili - Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists

Another one:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Vital-Roots-European-Enlightenment/dp/0739119907

Both of the above mentioned books were published in the West.

I am certain that no amount of convincing is going to change your mind. The only solution to this is for a person to carry out independent research on Western textbooks & factually determine whether or not they ignore Muslim contributions.

Then you need to come down to the real world. This thread itself points out various instances. Whether they were Arab or Persian is secondary; the fact is that Muslim accomplishments are woefully undermentioned, or outright ignored, in most standard Western textbooks.

You need to stop making foolish accusations. Have you gone through every damn textbook in the Western world to make such a remark? What proof do you have of this besides your own claims made out of prejudice & racism?

Western media still dominates the globe and the Western narrative takes precedence. Eastern countries are starting to assert their claims on history, but it's a slow process. The Indians, Chinese and, thankfully, the Turks, have started to set the record straight in many instances, but there's a long way to go.

If other nations discover that their history has been distorted or concealed then they have every right to correct modern literature on the subject.

I am talking about the anti-Muslim hatred present through the ages in Western, especially European, thought. From the days of Dante to modern day historians. Do you know that, even today, the standard authority on Islam in Europe are people like Bernard Lewis -- people who are rabidly anti-Muslim?

Anti-Muslim hatred? The funny thing is that the Europeans are extremely tolerant of some of those good for nothing criminal Muslims in their society.

Only a fool would go to a person that hates Islam for the purpose of learning Islam. Hopefully, the more intelligent people would refer to neutral sources to learn about religion.

 

[Banu Umayyah]

Anti-Muslim hatred? The funny thing is that the Europeans are extremely tolerant of some of those good for nothing criminal Muslims in their society.

Only a fool would go to a person that hates Islam for the purpose of learning Islam. Hopefully, the more intelligent people would refer to neutral sources to learn about religion.

Western prejadece against "Orientalists" and specially Muslims in academia is undeniable. That is coming from western academics saying that. For the most part, in modern times this is somewhat rare, however for most of history, bias against Muslims, Arabs, turks etc is overwhelming and now is considered a historical fact. I recommend reading Orientalism by Edward said.
Also, your statement that Europeans are "extremely tolerant of criminal Muslims in their society" is laughable. lol !

 

[Surenas]

Moronic post....

Arabs were the ones who translated old Greek texts and Arabs were the one who improved on that texts afterwards...

Completely nonsense. The first people who translated Greek works were Persians, Jews and even Berbers.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

the western prejadece against "Orientalists" and specially Muslims in academia is undeniable. That is coming from western academics saying that. For the most part, in modern times this is somewhat rare, however for most of history, bias against Muslims, Arabs, turks etc is overwhelming and now is considered a historical fact. I recommend reading Orientalism by Edward said.

You are correct that during the Medieval ages there really was hatred for Muslims. That hatred is exactly what gave rise to the crusades. I agree, that in modern times, such hatred is extremely rare.

Also, your statement that Europeans are "extremely tolerant of criminal Muslims in their society" is laughable. lol !

That's not laughable, many European nations do tend to tolerate trouble making immigrants. The minute they stop tolerating them, they get accused of racism.

 

[Banu Umayyah]

Completely nonsense. The first people who translated Greek works were Persians, Jews and even Berbers.

Source?
The majority of early translation from Greek was under the House of Wisdom in Abbassid Baghdad, in which ARABS & Persians translated Greek books to Arabic.
House of Wisdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Surenas]

Source?
The majority of early translation from Greek was under the House of Wisdom in Abbassid Baghdad, in which ARABS & Persians translated Greek books to Arabic.
House of Wisdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here:

''The first scientists in the Islamic world were mostly Persians, Christians, Jews, even Berbers and the first Greek works were translated into Farsi for the then record it to the mandatory language of the elite, Arabic. One can not really speak of Arabic nor Islamic sciences but of the Sciences in the countries of Islam. That is also the original title of the book of A.Youschkevitch, one of the leading specialists in that field. Also the term "Islamic scholars" is a generalization not justified for those scientists and above all were still mostly recent converts who are not so particular as to their new religion.''

''The most important contribution indeed found in Baghdad but must be seen clearly in the light of the government of Al-Mamun, the seventh caliph. This enlightened ruler accepted the doctrine of Moetazilieten thereby founded the house of Wisdom (Bayt Al Hikma) in which scientists from all origins the Greek, Persian, Indian and Chinese works on an industrial scale translated. The moetazilieten, now by the new Muslim philosophers as relievers in Islam considered, among other things, had decided that the reason goes above the belief and that the Koran was created in stead of uncreated and Allah would allow the free will of men. These three elements were later denounced by the fundamentalists as respect and so it remained until today.''

Dutch article, but you can translate it and read it here:

Over de invloed van de Islam op de ontwikkeling van de wetenschap in het Westen | LVB.net

 

[Developereo]

Lol, I do know the difference between Wikipedia & official academic curricula. Have you read about the Canon of medicine?

The Canon of Medicine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is a textbook called "The House of Wisdom", but it's written by a British-Iraqi physicist.

The House of Wisdom: How Arabic Science Saved Ancient Knowledge and Gave Us the Renaissance by Jim Al-Khalili - Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists

Another one:

Amazon.com: The Vital Roots of European Enlightenment: Ibn Tufayl's Influence on Modern Western Thought (9780739119907): Samar Attar: Books

Both of the above mentioned books were published in the West.

Duh! We are not talking about specialists, but general science in Western society. Of course, specialists would know the history of their field.

Most general academic texts in Western schools and colleges gloss over Muslim contributions to science. Most Western media presentations on science do likewise. It takes Muslim, or Arab, scientists to try and point out the missing details.

I am certain that no amount of convincing is going to change your mind. The only solution to this is for a person to carry out independent research on Western textbooks & factually determine whether or not they ignore Muslim contributions.

You need to stop making foolish accusations. Have you gone through every damn textbook in the Western world to make such a remark? What proof do you have of this besides your own claims made out of prejudice & racism?

Spare me the rant and you trying to earn the badge of being "progressive".

I have lived in the West most of my life and gone to school here. I have watched Western media all this time, and spoken to average Westerners about their knowledge of science. Muslim contributions are all but absent in all these cases.

How many Westerners have you spoken to who know anything about Muslim science? I am not talking about the ones in Saudi Arabia, but the average Joe on the Western street?

Anti-Muslim hatred? The funny thing is that the Europeans are extremely tolerant of some of those good for nothing criminal Muslims in their society.

This discussion is not about criminals but the history of science. If you want a general discussion about Islamophobia in Europe, there are plenty of threads already on that subject.

Only a fool would go to a person that hates Islam for the purpose of learning Islam. Hopefully, the more intelligent people would refer to neutral sources to learn about religion.

The anti-Muslim bigots have been elevated to the status of authorities on Islam by Western academia. The Europeans love Bernard Lewis because he tells them what they want to hear about Islam.

 

[Banu Umayyah]

Here:

I can't read Dutch.
But I hope you can read English!
Islamic History in Arabia and Middle East

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

Duh! We are not talking about specialists, but general science in Western society. Of course, specialists would know the history of their field.

Most general academic texts in Western schools and colleges gloss over Muslim contributions to science. Most Western media presentations on science do likewise. It takes Muslim, or Arab, scientists to try and point out the missing details.

You asked for Western books & I provided you with them.

Spare me the rant and you trying to earn the badge of being "progressive".

I have lived in the West most of my life and gone to school here. I have watched Western media all this time, and spoken to average Westerners about their knowledge of science. Muslim contributions are all but absent in all these cases.

How many Westerners have you spoken to who know anything about Muslim science? I am not talking about the ones in Saudi Arabia, but the average Joe on the Western street?

I am not trying to earn the badge of being progressive. It's you that keeps sticking to his prejudiced views. Almost everyone all over the world has watched & been influenced by Western media. All of us have studied Western textbooks. That is undeniable. The Westerners or particularly the British & Germans I have spoken to regarding this subject do know about the Islamic contributions to science & technology. There is the possibility that the people I spoke to were exceptions to the norm. Many of my Western friends know little about Islamic science, if anything at all, but the same can be said for my Muslim or Middle Eastern friends too.

As for the average Joe on the Western street, I doubt that an average Joe would know much about anything in any part of the world. Lets not forget that you are basing your hypothesis on one country alone.

This discussion is not about criminals but the history of science. Once again, you can go somewhere else to beg for your badge of being "progressive". You won't get it here.

I am not begging for a badge on being progressive. Keep your insults to yourself, you should however be presented with an award for trolling in this post.

As usual, you miss the point completely.

The anti-Muslim bigots have been elevated to the status of authorities on Islam by Western academia. The Europeans love Bernard Lewis because he tells them what they want to hear about Islam.

You missed my point entirely as well. What I meant was that only ignorant people would go learn about Islam from someone who hates Islam, whereas those with common sense would stick to neutral sources. So are you saying that every European loves Bernard Lewis? That is a generalization, don't you think?

This discussion is not about criminals but the history of science. If you want a general discussion about Islamophobia in Europe, there are plenty of threads already on that subject.

The anti-Muslim bigots have been elevated to the status of authorities on Islam by Western academia. The Europeans love Bernard Lewis because he tells them what they want to hear about Islam.

Nice try, but modifying your post to get rid of insults won't help you here. Don't worry, I haven't reported your posts yet.

Your arguments have deteriorated from giving credit to non-Western civilizations all the way to how much an average Westerner knows about Islamic contributions.