Thank You USA

[hack]

Hi,

Tohir Yuldashev should have been executed by the pak millitary when they had him entrapped years ago---but then he escaped in a pickup truck right throught the FC quadrant---amazing wasn't that---that was the time when pak security forces could not do any thing right---people escaping security forces custody all the time---.

We the Pakistanis allowed these radicals to do their thing for too long---even after 9/11. Our millitary assessment of the afghan war and its future effects, was again set in failure due to the ignorance and incompetence of the general staff---.

Pakistan and pakistanis have taken the sole contract of the muslim world---of every radical muslim is a muslim brother---every lunatic muslim is a muslim brother----every fanatic muslim is a muslim brother---every unwanted muslim by their parent country is also a muslim brother---.

By giving protection to these lunatics---pakistan had become the asylum / sanctuary of the lunatics of the muslim world---all the rejects of the islamic world ended up in pakistan---all the mental cases---all the psychos of the muslim nations----people whom their govt never ever wanted to set free on the street---ended up in pakistan---and what did the pakistanis do---they thought that these arabs etc---who were speaking in their native language ARABIC---were actually reciting the holy qura'an---they carried them on their shoulders and made them their heroes---how pathetic and low a nation can go---.

If you want to fault someone...just follow the money. Saudi Arabian oil money is spreading their Wahabbi version of Islam all over western Pakistan and that IMO is the primary reason for the Taliban. Funny isnt it how the Saudi Arabian ruling family do not allow Wahabbi growth in their own country but have no problem exporting it all over the world?

 

[Nomad]

Hi,

Tohir Yuldashev should have been executed by the pak millitary when they had him entrapped years ago---but then he escaped in a pickup truck right throught the FC quadrant---amazing wasn't that---that was the time when pak security forces could not do any thing right---people escaping security forces custody all the time---.

We the Pakistanis allowed these radicals to do their thing for too long---even after 9/11. Our millitary assessment of the afghan war and its future effects, was again set in failure due to the ignorance and incompetence of the general staff---.

Pakistan and pakistanis have taken the sole contract of the muslim world---of every radical muslim is a muslim brother---every lunatic muslim is a muslim brother----every fanatic muslim is a muslim brother---every unwanted muslim by their parent country is also a muslim brother---.

By giving protection to these lunatics---pakistan had become the asylum / sanctuary of the lunatics of the muslim world---all the rejects of the islamic world ended up in pakistan---all the mental cases---all the psychos of the muslim nations----people whom their govt never ever wanted to set free on the street---ended up in pakistan---and what did the pakistanis do---they thought that these arabs etc---who were speaking in their native language ARABIC---were actually reciting the holy qura'an---they carried them on their shoulders and made them their heroes---how pathetic and low a nation can go---.

Excellent post Mastan. You have hit the nail on the head!!! It must be difficult having to deal with the mistakes of elected leaders and watch ones country having such problems. However there maybe light at the end of the tunnel.

The first and most difficult step is to understand the problem, and how it has happened. If more forum members read your post and accept the gist of what you have said it will be a small step. Having read some of their posts I know how difficult it will be. Pakistan will also need a strong leaders to admit the problem, it will need its media and army's support. This will be extremely difficult.

The second step of confronting these lunatics is already happening because GOP has no choice.

The last step of making sure that Pakistan will never again be a sanctuary to these nuts from all over the world is equally difficult.

The problems are large indeed, but not impossible to overcome. Unfortunately the price Pakistan and its citizens will have to pay will be high. However I am an optimist, I would like nothing better than to see Pakistan come out of this mess, and become stable and prosperous.

 

[r3alist]

See, none of you, and that in itself is curious, has asked how or rather why is it that Al-Qaeeida and Talib position themselves among civilians?? In effect they are using civilians as human shields, isn't that so?? And yet none of you have thus far, had any problem with this - Why??

US and Pakistani COIN practices have reguired the seperation of the insurgent from the civilian society and while the US has focused on protection of the civilains, the Pakistani strategy, as we saw in Lanka and Swat, is to drain the swamp, that is to say get the civilians out of the effected area and then exhaust themselves on the Islamist insurgents - both policies have merit, whereas the US policy is backed up by their financial strength.

The Islamist insurgency is a cancer in the body of the nation state of Pakistan and just as surgery removes not only the cancer but also healthy tissue, in the same way, we must acknowledge that those described as "civilians" have been caught up in the drone attacks, at the same time we must acknowledge that the Islamist insurgency has been assisted by some so called "innocent" civilians - after all, if a house in which insurgents are or use, we must ask, in a effort to discern the "innocent" who come the Islamikst insurgents are being housed in a compound owned by a specific person, how come the "innocents" are collecting rent and shopping food and preparing meals for these Islamist insurgents, in effect they are facilitating the insurgency --- A question for those who take exception to the drone attacks, Why is it not the responsibility of parents and tribal leaders to ensure that their wives and children are no where near the Islamist insurgents??? The answer is simple, the civilians are human shields and while the drones target the leadership fo Al-Qaeeida and Talib, it is the propaganda of the Islamist insurgency which some have fallen victim to, first they use human shields, then complain that their human shields did not protect them the leadership cadres of the the Al-Qaeeida and Talib.

Bottom line is like this - the drone attacks have been exceptionally successful at targeting the leadership of the Islamist insurgency and this has allowed the Pakistan army to devastate the islamist insurgency - and in order to kill the islamist insurgency, the drone attacks will continue and ought to.

so ok, you dont want to discuss my points, ok fine, i will reply to you.

this is not gaza, you cannot impute the scenario of "hiding among civilians in this case"

the situation is far more nuanced, not that i agree with the gaza scenario anyway.

if the fact that bombing your own citizens and disregarding them as sub human is not enough for you then read the words of ex-cia station chief of afghanistan, read them carefully.

Pashtuns are also among the most fiercely nationalist, tribalized and xenophobic peoples of the world, united only against the foreign invader. In the end, the Taliban are probably more Pashtun than they are Islamist.

you see, these people are not all islamist wahabi types are they - theres a shade of grey in between your black and white world.

the way you characterise these people is ridiculous, its like you know nothing about pakistani people.

is might sound like a crazy idea to you but bombing people to shreds is not always the best solution, if you can tell me where its worked i would like to know.

these pashtun taliban types have been driven to side with extremist backwardness because we are prepared to let the US treat them as cannon fodder, like it or not thats what they think and feel.


in some scenarios they have no choice, to treat them as guilty by association is retarded and callous, how can you be a pakistani and say this?

do you have any regard for their lives?

we dont want to kill each and every one of them (pashtun peple caught up in the taliban mess), we want to bring them on our side and convince them that extremism and talibanism is bad for them and pakistan - instead you gleefully encourage their bombing - how will that bring them on our side?

you kill one pushtun, you make 20 enemies for atleast a generation, you are perpetuating your own problems, 1 leader dies, 10 other candidates rise and so on, explain how this is a good thing.

 

[BATMAN]

Let there be no doubt that without the permission and intelligence coperation of Pakistan US cannot acheive many successes.
I'm sure if Pakistan was operating those drones than it would have bore much better results.
I hope Americans will learn lesson from the title of this thread and thank Pakistan for capturing alive and dead many wanted terroists by US of much higher profile. for sacrificing so many lives in a WOT and paying it from our own economy.
Alas... US media and think tanks maligned Pakistan and Pakistanis, instead.
I cannot forget blames which US have leveled on Pak army and nation, in past, present and most likely in future as well.

 

[r3alist]

m sure if Pakistan was operating those drones than it would have bore much better results.

another point i ask the anti pakistani pro american lovers is if the us was such a good friend then why not treat us like trusted friends and give us more autonomy with the drones?

why not give us a larger say in matters, it is out patch after all so we deserve this, alas we are just the servants and some people have a habit of living their masters.

 

[S-2]

"I hope Americans will learn lesson from the title of this thread and thank Pakistan for capturing alive and dead many wanted terroists by US of much higher profile. for sacrificing so many lives in a WOT and paying it from our own economy."

Thank you for saving yourselves from yourselves?

Have your Pakistani expeditionary forces, provided by your Pakistani budget, scoured the world for these men?

No.

They were found on YOUR LANDS.

I suppose you could have surrendered but I see no reason to "thank you" for defending yourselves...

...finally.

Just be glad others are willing to share the cost of such defense. You seem unable/unwilling otherwise.

 

[BATMAN]

^^@ r3alist:
It is because US trust TTP and indians more than Pak army. This is why they have access to more sophisticated US wepons than given to Pak army.
US want us to fight terrorists funded with billions of dollars with simple guns.
It's like putting our soldiers in a fight with tied hands.
If people remember once US mistaken FC soldiers and officers as terrorists and hit there observatory post on Afghan border with hell fire.
Zardari, Rehman Malik and Haqqani have more credibility in the eyes of US than Kyani and Shuja Pasha! becuase as per there standards they have been more helpful than elements in army becasue, eliminating TTP is not helping US.

 

[BATMAN]

Thank you for saving yourselves from yourselves?

Have your Pakistani expeditionary forces, provided by your Pakistani budget, scoured the world for these men?

No.

They were found on YOUR LANDS.

I suppose you could have surrendered but I see no reason to "thank you" for defending yourselves...

...finally.

Just be glad others are willing to share the cost of such defense. You seem unable/unwilling otherwise.

Those were on our lands because US paid their boarding and lodging costs and we let them live because we were favoring a friendly state.

We had no TTP before US and indians occupied Afghanistan. It means if there were no Afghan invasions we didn't had to save our selves from no body.

 

[r3alist]

Have your Pakistani expeditionary forces, provided by your Pakistani budget, scoured the world for these men?

because they were never a problem before, duhhhhhhh!


were there ever any or many suicide bomb in iraq before us invasions - NO

were there ever any or many suicide bombs in afghanistan before US invasion - NO

were there ever any or many suicide bombs in pakistan before us invasions/interference - NO

the united states has brought suicide bombers, death, destabilisation, destruction and poverty plus some more in all these countries, whats to be proud about?

 

[S-2]

"because they were never a problem before..."

That's changed, hasn't it?

Your state policies of proxy armies were your problem. YOU saw value in these men following the Soviet-Afghan war to perpetuate your political vision of Afghanistan and to maintain active resistance inside Indian Kashmir.

So you protected them following 9/11.

YOU chose to ride the tiger. This is of your own doing and nobody is accountable for radicalizing the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan but yourselves.

You could always choose to surrender. That's an option. Maybe cut a deal (you know about deals, right?) and bring the taliban into your leadership.

Let me know when your army/police spill a DROP of their blood assisting ANYBODY but yourselves.

Until then, deal with it or surrender.

 

[r3alist]

"because they were never a problem before..."

That's changed, hasn't it?

Your state policies of proxy armies were your problem. YOU saw value in these men following the Soviet-Afghan war to perpetuate your political vision of Afghanistan and to maintain active resistance inside Indian Kashmir.

So you protected them following 9/11.

YOU chose to ride the tiger. This is of your own doing and nobody is accountable for radicalizing the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan but yourselves.

You could always choose to surrender. That's an option. Maybe cut a deal (you know about deals, right?) and bring the taliban into your leadership.

Let me know when your army/police spill a DROP of their blood assisting ANYBODY but yourselves.

Until then, deal with it or surrender.

we have our interests, we dont need to justify our safety to you, you have your blunders, we have ours, but this is a separate debate on a separate issue.

point being, you never answered my points, no rebuttal, here it is again...

were there ever any or many suicide bomb in iraq before us invasions - NO

were there ever any or many suicide bombs in afghanistan before US invasion - NO

were there ever any or many suicide bombs in pakistan before us invasions/interference - NO

the united states has brought suicide bombers, death, destabilisation, destruction and poverty plus some more in all these countries, whats to be proud about?

 

[muse]

R3alist

this is not gaza, you cannot impute the scenario of "hiding among civilians in this case"

Sorry that you do not see things that way, but that's not a problem for me - you can pretend that terrorists in Gaza are not terrorists in Waziristan - but terrorists are terrorists and insurgents pretty much follow the same strategy and tactics the world over - if you note, the Fauj outCOINED US efforts, using the same ideas in the US COIN manual.

S2

Sometimes you are as guilty as any other of "feeling more" instead of "Thinking more" -- Did Pakistan help itself, sure and in doing so did it help the US? Sure.

 

[r3alist]

muse, you have a habit of selectively splicing posts to use for your own agenda, read my post properly, note what i am saying about pashtun's/talibans and guilt by association and respond to it.

stop ignoring whats inconvenient - now its your turn to respond properly and fully....

 

[BATMAN]

If you want to fault someone...just follow the money. Saudi Arabian oil money is spreading their Wahabbi version of Islam all over western Pakistan and that IMO is the primary reason for the Taliban. Funny isnt it how the Saudi Arabian ruling family do not allow Wahabbi growth in their own country but have no problem exporting it all over the world?

I have not heard any thin gmore absurd!
How can you blame Saudis while TTP is clearly a product of US and Indian nexus?
US is clearly dragged us in this war?
OBL and other al-qaeeda operatives were wanted in Saudi as well.
Where as OBL has been sarrounded by US army on more than one occassion and all the time in Afghanistan but he ESCAPED breaking the security cordon.
Despite the fact US officials delibrately tried to mislead their nation by constantly telling that he is in Pakistan!
It does need a simple sense to figure out that he is more safe out of Pakistan rather than inside Pakistan, where many top operatives have been capture like mices just in the begining of war.
BTW.... sole agenda of TTP is to damge Pakistan development and its army and it is not one organisation being used to destroy Pakistan.
mind it Saudi have no interest in stripping Pakistan of its nukes!
A multi prong strtegy can bee seen building around Pakistan.....
Only states which have history of supporting terrorist activities inside Pakistan and against our interests are india, Iran, US, Afghanistan etc..
Please, keep your baseless propaganda to your self. While you don't even know the beliefs of people in various sects.
Contrary to your belief, Pakistanis are far less religous oriented than any other Muslim state.

 

[muse]

R3alist


you want to insist that you pose both questions and insist that answers meet your approval - it's not novel but it's plain silly. I'm sorry, Talib are Islamist insurgents, and not "more pashtun" - what the heck does that say about the majority of Pashtun who are not Talib??? I'm patient with you, more than you imagine, I try to give as much space as you require because I sense you are frustrated about something, but I do want you to least "think" - you imagine that you are some some "side of your own" and perhaps you are, but please think

You also want to deal with "guilt by association" - now, I really don't know what you are thinking - associating with enemies of Pakistan qualifies people as enemies of Pakistan - what's so difficult to understand about this??

You wish to insist that the "Pakistan army and airforce bomb people to shreds" - again, you are not thinking and ascribing the worst of motivations to the patriotic armed forces - we target Talib and Al-qaeeida leadership, and we support the drone attacks because it does the same, once we have confidence that we have softenbed them up, we will then move in to kill the talib and Al-qaeeda rank and file, their enablers and their helpers -- what's so difficult or objectionable about that??