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Thank You USA

I am merely saying that this lack of control EXPLAINS USA "meddling" in Pakistani affairs, including pressure on the political/military leadership and drone strikes themselves.

Then why not give the drones to the Pakistan army? That way the US can deflect the blame and avoid inflaming anti-US sentiment in Pakistan. As long as the job gets done, who cares who does it? Is the US so petty that it wants to hog the credit for taking out these targets? I notice the US media rarely mentions the cooperation of Pakistani intelligence in successful drone attacks.

If the Indian lobby is calling the shots and blocking the sale, then the drones can be leased for use only while the US is in Afghansitan.

to contain China (who is the USA's most important creditor).

This must be why the US is giving all this high-tech nuclear and military technology to China, while leading a Western boycott of same to India. Oh wait...

Muse [...] is not criticizing your attempts to blame the US/India for supporting the TTP/assorted insurgent groups because he secretly supports such alleged activity - he is criticizing you because all this talk about the US and India supporting XYZ distracts from the real issue of going after the terrorists.

I agree with muse on most things, but we have a different view on two matters here:

When the US fights terrorism, it doesn't just kill the terrorists, it also targets their logistics and supply lines. Acknowledging passive US complicity in Indian/Israeli support for TTP is the first step in cutting off their supply lines from Afghanistan. It would be a disservice to our people, both civilian and military, whose lives are risked by this conflict to ignore the TTP's logistics. People have mentioned Saudi funding, but I don't see the logic there at all. India/Israel have the means and the motive to support TTP to create ethnic/sectarian unrest in Pakistan.

The second point is the co-option of the US military and Western media line that these civilians are willing accomplices. This may be a convenient rationalization for foreigners to dismiss the deaths of Pakistani children, but we will never abdicate their rights.
 
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It never crossed my mind that muse could be a woman.

Muse
Greek mythology, poetry, and literature are the goddesses or spirits who inspire the creation of literature and the arts.

Made me think of including both to be polite, but i try not to assume. Lucky me most of my life i have worked mainly with women :azn: it did teach me they are as capable as men in just about anything.
 
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Heck, MastanKhan could be a 20 year old brunette supermodel for all I know.
poor Mastankhan:rofl:

Develepero

passive US complicity in Indian/Israeli support for TTP is the first step in cutting off their supply lines from Afghanistan.


This rhetoric, not the logic you say want to base positions on. Can you offer some, any evidence of Indian/Israeli support of TTP?? I think it's important for your own development that the information you provide you may also want to share with the Pakistani authorities.


It would be a disservice to our people, both civilian and military, whose lives are risked by this conflict to ignore the TTP's logistics. People have mentioned Saudi funding, but I don't see the logic there at all. India/Israel have the means and the motive to support TTP to create ethnic/sectarian unrest in Pakistan

What if your "ideological position" ends up being wrong, will the Pakistani people have been served? If you read the article "Pakistan goes for the Jugular" you will note that it is the Pakistani minister of interior saying where the money for the islamist insurgency was coming from, there is also an additional article - but you see, your "ideological position" is "as the "China anniversary and Pakistan" editorial suggest, "prevents" you from building a position from facts and logic. I will copy the relevant section and paste it and I hope you will then evaluate whether what you seek to hold on to, is a service or disservice to the Pakistani nation:

In addition to all this, however, is the key part played by the Pakistani Interior Ministry, which resolved that the best way to sap the strength of al-Qaeda and the militants lay in cutting their financial arteries.

This is not a novel approach to root out militancy, but one that has not successfully been implemented by Pakistan.

Soon after the September 11, 2001, attacks on the US, the US Federal Bureau of Investigation targeted financial institutions and charities that supported al-Qaeda, with some success.

However, US institutions were unable to track the Taliban's financial arteries as these are mostly primitive, based on non-banking and non-traditional financial sources and tribal connections. Asia Times Online has documented how difficult it is to disrupt this flow of money. (See How the Taliban keep their coffers full Asia Times Online, June 10.)

Interior Minister Malik recognized the problem, and tackled it head-on, first with Baitullah's Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP - Taliban Movement of Pakistan).

In an interview in New York, Malik confidently claimed that over 80% of the financial arteries of the TTP and al-Qaeda's funds coming from the Middle East had been blocked.

"The TTP's approach was unique in all aspects and it could have been very hard to trace. First, the TTP gathered information from Mehsud tribal people living in the Middle East. They were mostly skilled and unskilled labors who sent money to their families through hundi [non-banking money transfers]. The TTP contacted these labors, individually, and warned them that a certain percentage of the money they sent to their families should be remitted to the TTP," Malik said.

"We carefully studied the whole mechanism before we moved for a clampdown. The first thread of the strategy was the scanning and subsequent clampdown on illegal money transfers through hundi businesses. We studied all the business deals of the money exchange companies who were mostly involved in such transfers.

"Previously, Pakistan received US$3 billion to $4 billion [in remittances] through banking channels. After our operations on the money exchange companies, you will see that our [foreign exchange] reserves have soared [from $7 billion to $8 billion] to $14 billion to $15 billion as we have not left any choice to the remitters except to send their money through [regular] banking channels," Malik said, implying that the money the country now received from remittances had doubled.

"However, in this broader operation, we traced a triangular syndicate based in Pakistan comprising al-Qaeda, the TTP and the jihadi organizations, like the Laskhar-e-Jhangvi. Sometimes they got financial support from Middle Eastern philanthropists. Our intelligence agencies tracked the whole mechanism of how the money traveled from one hand to the other, so, for instance, money aimed for al-Qaeda benefited the whole syndicate. This syndicate had so strongly knitted its financial arteries together that they [militants] were able to hire a fighter for $500 per month," Malik said.

"After 9/11, security institutions tried to break down financial arteries. They spotted several institutions and successfully blocked their financial support. However, in the past few years, the dynamics of the money supply to those terror networks changed. They split themselves into segments and they developed a human chain network which could pass on cash from one hand to the other.

"In the past year, the situation became more complicated as the financial arteries feeding the insurgencies to this region and to Iraq were merged in our region," Malik said, adding that it happened because after the US military operation in Iraq against al-Qaeda, all top al-Qaeda operators relocated in North Waziristan and South Waziristan.

Having begun the process of strangling the financial lifeblood of al-Qaeda and the Taliban, Islamabad now feels it is in a position to go for the jugular with an all-out military offensive. In Pakistan's eyes, this battle will be the start of the endgame. The militants might view it differently, as just the beginning of a real war
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And as for your second objection, I think again, you are feeling more and thinking less, consider:

The second point is the co-option of the US military and Western media line that these civilians are willing accomplices. This may be a convenient rationalization for foreigners to dismiss the deaths of Pakistani children, but we will never abdicate their rights.

The bit about the "never abdicate their rights" - might this not be taken up with the arbis chechens, uzbeks and the talib who deliberately use these as human shields??? Where is your sense of outrage at being "violated" by Al-Qaeeda and their talib protege?? See, what I am saying is that we must get past our "ideology", we must be real -- the drones have not robbed the rights of Pakistani human shields, it is Al-Qaeeda and talib who have -- in the end, these were our dogs who started to bite us and that's why they must be put done.

Yours is an important point of view and I hope you will have cause to reevaluate the position you will build given that contrary to your ideological assertion about the israeli/indian (call it, you mean Hindu Zionist), it is ideological co-confessionals (no Muslim could do that) who are sending money so that the Talib can pay $500.00 per foot soldier.
 
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Muse

Made me think of including both to be polite, but i try not to assume. Lucky me most of my life i have worked mainly with women :azn: it did teach me they are as capable as men in just about anything.

Agreed Muse is women that is reason not aware of hundi?

Sorry Muse i was considering you man , now you get more respect from all members

champian think tanker:smitten:
 
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TTP has no ideological analogy with Saudis. which were the first to issue fatwa about them being non Muslims.
There are many proffs and logics discussed on this forum but you just came out with your plain personal view?
Only Americans and Indians of American origin come to Pakistan on chartered plains and busy making private militia to star ethnic riots during Pakistan's offensive of Waziristan.
Just go back one page and check the links i provided to quite many loud mouths.

haha ....very entertaining. You are a conspiracy theorist extraordinaire. :)

I remember another classic theory of yours where you labeled TTP as Blackwater agents - priceless!
 
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haha ....very entertaining. You are a conspiracy theorist extraordinaire. :)

I remember another classic theory of yours where you labeled TTP as Blackwater agents - priceless!

I appreciate if you provide any proof that ttp has any link or getting money from saudis?
 
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That's just the truth, deal with it - the sooner we deal with it the sooner we can get real - wanna shed tears over the talib, be my guest - His mother and sister, his Asymetric war fighting, Badal loving, Pashtunwali hugging, boy f***ing, ghairatmand behind, yeah, it's the truth, but some get off on his "savage man" purity, but see above for the quality of that purity and by extension that of his amourous enablers, yeah, get that's reality, can you deal with it??


wow, you really hate pakistani's, are you trying to earn some credibility in other circles with your pak bashing??

now you can add racist snides to your cv, reported.
 
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wow, you really hate pakistani's, are you trying to earn some credibility in other circles with your pak bashing??

now you can add racist snides to your cv, reported.

Its not about a race or an ethnicity, its about a state of mind - and it applies just as well to the Pashtun Talib as it does to the Punjabi religious extremists.

I distinctly remember plenty of jokes about Mullah's in general being 'launday baaz', and there have been various cases in Madrassa's in Punjab as well where students have been sexually assaulted.

I also believe that what he was trying to say is that some Pakistanis 'romanticize' the whole 'honor and revenge code' of the Taliban (and Tribals) and think it is something to be preserved and revered. It is not and should not.

At its root, whether in Punjab, Sindh, Baluchistan, FATA or NWFP, the whole concept of 'honor and dignity and revenge' is a primitive and destabilizing one. Too many people look at 'honor' as, "I need to go kill someone to restore my honor', and often that ends up in cold blooded murder of an innocent soul for a trivial and frivolous reason.

The entire premise behind 'badal and honor' is one of anarchy and lawlessness. If you think your 'honor' has been attacked, go file alibel suit, if you think you have been wronged go register a case with the police and follow it in court.

How is it acceptable to go around killing people for the sake of 'honor' and 'revenge'? This is a sign of a society in chaos and anarchy. There is nothing honorable about taking the law into ones hands and going around killing people for the sake of 'honor' - that philosophy was better suited to several hundred years ago, when there was no central authority and no political system in place.

The Tribes, Sardars, and feudal Punjabis, Sindhis and Pashtun need to wake up to that reality, and if they don't then they need to face the consequences of taking the law into their own hands.
 
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Do we have any proof the TTP is getting any money or has any links to the US or Israelis?

Enemy of my enemy is my friend

TTP getting help from India no doubt about that fact , recent swat war is practical proof, TTP is using indian arms and trained Afghan militant present inside our boarders, Indian training camps already in Afghanistan.

Israel is not directly involved but give support to India.

US trainers inside Terbela can not be trusthworthy, their drones are also performing dual job taking photo graphes of sensitive areas.

I feel danger of US forces similar to east india company.
 
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I appreciate if you provide any proof that ttp has any link or getting money from saudis?

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There are several articles on this forum like the one below that have highlighted a Saudi connection to the TTP. I suspect you have read them before and have chosen to ignore the facts to protect your ideological position.

If I remember correctly, you once argued that allowing music was one of the factors fueling terrorism in the country. Clearly, you need to re-evaluate your value system.

Before you can accept the ground realities, you will need to get rid of your infatuation with the salafi nonsense, and recognize that the saudi salafi ideology is nothing more than a regressive tribal doctrine that has a lot more in common with fascism than any religion.

At the end of the day, I can take the horse to the watering hole but I can't make it drink.




Saudi Charity Funding TTP terror attacks

Monday, September 14, 2009

News Jang Group Desk

ISLAMABAD: A Saudi Arabian charity believed to be a front for al-Qaeda has provided USD 15 million (55 million dirhams) to extremist groups in Pakistan for carrying out terror attacks, according to a secret report prepared by Pakistani police.

A major chunk of the funds provided by the Al-Haramain Foundation went to the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan, said the report prepared by the Crime Investigation Department.

The Al-Haramain Foundation has been banned by the UN Security Council for its links to al-Qaeda. According to the CID report, Hakimullah Mehsud, the successor to slain Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan chief Baitullah Mehsud, has vowed to avenge his killing in a US drone attack in August.

“The Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan is likely to strike major cities of the Punjab,” said the report.The report further said: “The joint plans of Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan and Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan are to target Shias. The plans are meant to avenge the recent killing of a top Sipahe-e-Sahaba Pakistan man in Karachi.
 
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Can you offer some, any evidence of Indian/Israeli support of TTP??

I can also quote similar press releases by the Pakistani government or US intelligence officials accusing India.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/34610-ttp-leaders-confess-taking-funds-raw.html

ISLAMABAD/PESHAWAR: The arrested commanders of Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan have confessed that secret departments of India, including RAW, and Afghanistan have been providing them weapons and funds to fight against the Pakistan Army.

Russia, India supporting BLA, Malik tells Senate

ISLAMABAD: The government on Wednesday startled the Senate by saying that Russia and India were supporting the Balochistan Liberation Army (BLA) in its secession bid

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/22001-india-supporting-taliban-us-intel-official.html

"The Indians are up to their necks in supporting the Taliban against the Pakistani government in Afghanistan and Pakistan," the former intelligence official who served in both countries said. "The same anti-Pakistani forces in Afghanistan also shooting at American soldiers are getting support from India. India should close its diplomatic establishments in Afghanistan and get the Christ out of there."

I think it's important for your own development that the information you provide you may also want to share with the Pakistani authorities.

No need to, since it's the Pakistani authorities themselves making these claims. There is a time and place for patriotic dissent, and the middle of a war is not it. If the Pakistani authorities say that India (or Saudi Arabia) is supporting TTP, then I will take their word for it. For now.

We can look back on it and debate it once the war is over, but right now the Pakistani army needs our unconditional support. I will give them 100% support without second guessing them while they are fighting the bad guys.

What if your "ideological position" ends up being wrong, will the Pakistani people have been served? If you read the article "Pakistan goes for the Jugular" you will note that it is the Pakistani minister of interior saying where the money for the islamist insurgency was coming from, there is also an additional article - but you see, your "ideological position" is "as the "China anniversary and Pakistan" editorial suggest, "prevents" you from building a position from facts and logic. I will copy the relevant section and paste it and I hope you will then evaluate whether what you seek to hold on to, is a service or disservice to the Pakistani nation:

You have mentioned ideology several times in this thread. My only ideology in this matter is patriotism for Pakistan and condemnation of all foreign meddling. This may surprise you but I haven't the foggiest idea what a salafi, takfiri, or deobandi is. And I really don't care, because I have no wish to be a theologian. All I care is that people work for a tolerant, progressive and strong Pakistan that respects everybody's human rights, which is why I oppose Wahabi influence.

As for logic, both India and Israel are known to co-operate in matters of defence and intelligence. Both countries have a clear motive in fomenting sectarian and secessionist unrest within Pakistan. If I was in RAW or Mossad, I would be supporting the TTP without a doubt.

By the same token, I don't see a US motive for supporting the TTP, since it distracts/excuses Pakistan from focussing on the Afghan Taliban.

I will grant you that hard evidence has not been produced by the Pakistani authorities but, as stated above, I will give them the benefit of the doubt until this conflict is resolved.

The bit about the "never abdicate their rights" - might this not be taken up with the arbis chechens, uzbeks and the talib who deliberately use these as human shields??? Where is your sense of outrage at being "violated" by Al-Qaeeda and their talib protege??

Once again, we are all agreed that these guys are animals and must be exterminated. I really don't see where I have excused them for anything.

contrary to your ideological assertion about the israeli/indian (call it, you mean Hindu Zionist), it is ideological co-confessionals (no Muslim could do that) who are sending money so that the Talib can pay $500.00 per foot soldier.

I have stated repeatedly that the India/Pakistan conflict is not a Hindu/Muslim conflict, but geopolitical in nature. Even the Israeli conflict was a geopolitical conflict but the Zionists injected religion into it to play the anti-Semitism card, and the Arabs/Muslims fell for the trap. And I have always opposed foreign influence within Pakistan, be it Saudi Wahabism or Iranian extremism.

I think we all agree that the bad guys need to be taken down and their logistics blocked. Whether their support comes from India, Israel, Saudi Arabia or elsewhere is a detail that I will trust the ISI/Army to sort out.

As for the collateral damage, we also agree that it is unavoidable and should be minimized. My only point of difference is that I believe most of them are innocent civilians whom I view as martyrs, not complicit enablers.
 
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Thank You USA for killing our civilians
Thank You USA for ruining our economy
Thank You USA for draging us into war
Thank You USA for appointing Voiceroy Mr Richard Butcher
Thank You USA for accepting innocent people flesh as kosher meat
Thank You USA for death and destruction
Thank You USA for bribing our elite
Thank You USA for croocked terms and aggrements
Thank You USA for KFC and McDonalds while people starve to death
Thank You USA for buying our curropt politicians
Long Live Pakistan:pakistan:

Did you just come out of the kitchen with lots of onion sprinkles....

Fix the problem not the blame!!

your KFC and McDonalds line is actually very funny, because 1.49$ Double cheese burgers are dam expensive..

With that being said McDonalds to be opened in the Louvre :D
 
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Post reported.
You may disagree all you like with muse, but do not dare insult him again.


It never crossed my mind that muse could be a woman. But why not? Heck, MastanKhan could be a 20 year old brunette supermodel for all I know. In that case, I think I might just visit the US soon.

Hi Paface,

Man---somehow I missed that post of yours---I just wanted to roll on the floor laughing----

Now you just do that---come visit me in san francisco---I live about 20 miles away---we will go out for dinner. :partay:
 
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