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Tejas not to be battle ready before 2015.

Another point to note. One of the thoughtless clichés thrown about here is that "the world/china is moving on to 5th gen platforms." That is BS, to put it mildly. Neither the world, nor China are going to be comprised entirely of 5th gen fighters. Only the USA is going to do that, have only 5th gen fighters in their arsenal. The rest of the world will be flying a few stealth fighters, and a lot more 4th gen non stealth ones. Russia, China, India, Europe, all of them.

China is struggling to make a 4th gen fighter engine on their own. India has almost given up. Both these countries, as well as Russia and Europe are setting up production lines for 4++ gen fighters as we speak. Yes, China will have a few squadrons of stealth fighters, and so will we (FGFA). But they will also have plenty of non stealth fighters, so will we.

If one was to apply the same logic to Pakistan, they could ask why they are about to induct hundreds of JF-17s, when India is moving on to 5th gen with PAKFA. The answer to which would be that IAF is not moving entirely to 5th gen, neither is anybody else bar the USA.

We need LCAs, and we need them in numbers. No other way to have 39-42 squadrons, unless somebody is suggesting the purchase of a cheap, light fighter from abroad.
 
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But if that were true then surely the Jf-17 is just as outdated and irrelevant these days?

It is slowly but surely becoming irrelevant to the future battlefield that Pakistan faces.
The JF-17 is there because India chooses to persist with its Mig-29s and MKIs..
When that changes and the FGFA and AMCA come into the picture.. it is irrelevant or at least in obsolescence. That doesnt mean that it or the Tejas arent good effective fighters that can do their job well. The JF-17 will stay relevant because of what it brings to the overall PAF composition is important.. however the same cannot be said for Tejas.
It has to do with the battlefield as well.. the PAF for all its other commitments has its primary focus on the eastern front.. a battlefield whose dynamics do affect the importance of size and radar range... simply because most of the assets are next door. So some of the studies of ACEVAL and AIMVAL are valid here.

On the other hand, the IAF has two battlefields.. one to its west.. the other north. And it in the Northern battlefield that the LCA will become totally irrelevant. Moreover, it's irrelevance will have more to do with logistics, force usefulness and the overall importance of it a resource will diminish. Simply because the IAF already had good effective assets that can carry out its job with fairly similar costs over time. With the Rafale, Mig-29UPG ..there is little need for the LCA other than to prop up a local defense industry.

But it's not possible, because AMCA is not just a twin engine 4th gen fighter, which would had made a re-design and re-consideration of the project easier and possible in a useful timeframe, but it's a NG fighter. Apart of the sheer amount of parts that needs to be developed completely new, in most fields the required knowledge is not existent today and was meant to be available through further LCA upgrades only. Not to mention that the 188 LCAs on order, are meant to be available by 2022, a timeframe where not even the first AMCA squadron should be available, which then again means IAF and IN must procure more Rafales and Mig 29Ks, which I wouldn't mind at all but is expensive and since too many of my countrymen just like the MoD focuses too much on indigenisation for pride reasons, cancelling LCA is not very likely, or useful.
However the main point of the whole project is not to add teeth to IAF, but to set up a basic aero industry in India and that's why it is so important to get LCA done.

I believe then that the Govt of India is taking a very wrong approach in establishing an Aero Industry with regards to the economic and financial environment that India has. Frankly.. for a **** poor sanctioned country like Pakistan setting up a nationalized Aero industry makes sense because there are very little places it can procure and find the technology needed to make an aircraft.
On the other hand, India is booming, its private sector is booming and capitalism is being taken in by strides.
There are over five financial and industry giants in the Indian Private sector who were already willing to be involved in the MMRCA project and are quite capable of investing in the technology and infrastructure to set up a private manufacturing consortium.

Not only can they assist HAL in accelerating it's technology program , they can also speed up the manufacturing process that might have the AMCA on the table before 2018. Think of it this way.. there is nothing going on India's western front for the time being.. at this point, why settle for less by 2015 when more can be had three years later.
There will be NO loss in capability by that time a the MKI's, Mig-29s ,M2Ks and then the Rafale intake will more than make up for it.
The LCA may be procured as such.. but it can all be delegated to a test program or at best 2-3 sq kept on the Burmese and BD borders.

China is struggling to make a 4th gen fighter engine on their own. India has almost given up. Both these countries, as well as Russia and Europe are setting up production lines for 4++ gen fighters as we speak. Yes, China will have a few squadrons of stealth fighters, and so will we (FGFA). But they will also have plenty of non stealth fighters, so will we.

If one was to apply the same logic to Pakistan, they could ask why they are about to induct hundreds of JF-17s, when India is moving on to 5th gen with PAKFA. The answer to which would be that IAF is not moving entirely to 5th gen, neither is anybody else bar the USA.

We need LCAs, and we need them in numbers. No other way to have 39-42 squadrons, unless somebody is suggesting the purchase of a cheap, light fighter from abroad.

Here is the thing with that, you already have enough ...VERY capable 4th gen fighter filling up your ranks that can and perform all the roles envisioned for the LCA as cost effectively(as odd as that seems but include lifecycle,procurement and induction costs) as the Tejas.

The basic issue seems to be the need for an indigenous capability but that does not mean one does it for the heck of it.
There's something that's taught in basic Finance.. which is a projects Net Present Value.. which if above zero usually means go ahead with an investment or project.
In terms of the Tejas.. the Net Benefit value doesn't seem to be as much as it was envisioned.
And the alternatives based on the private sector look a lot more attractive.
 
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Do you seriously believe without developing a 4th gen aircraft we could move towards a bigger platform, its would again take 2 "Tejas" years to complete the bigger platform.

Dont delude yourself by what the media and a bunch of haters have to say. No job is easy and this definitely is not an exception. You must be proud that you had people who chose to remain in the country with peanuts as salary while their friends chose a lavish lifestyle abroad.

Today the world agrees to your demands by these very few visionaries, who crafted the term "reverse brain drain" in India, by creating equal opportunities for budding graduates and scientists.

LCA might not have flourished to the pace it was expected, but it sure created infrastructure and Interest in Aviation in India.

You! My Fellow Taxpayer! must not support the hard work and commitment shown by a few gentlemen go in vain.

Don't bother to reply these folks. Every man on earth, who got some brain knows that these are paid news. When the import lobby can get billions in kickbacks...how much it would cost them to pay these junk reporters to keep writing bul$hit like this? Its all about saving the import lobby. Every third day they rant about same news. I read the @ss hole who wrote this news was $shitting same thing few months back..nothing new :tdown:
 
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And it in the Northern battlefield that the LCA will become totally irrelevant.

Based on? In the interception role against J10s and J11, an LCA MK2 will be more than capable, since it offers very good capabilities for BVR combats, especially when supported by AWACS.

Simply because the IAF already had good effective assets that can carry out its job with fairly similar costs over time.

That's not correct, if at all LCAs operational cost per hour will be comparable to Gripen and JF 17 and by far not in the range of the Mig 29, let alone Rafale, which comes roughlyat twice the costs. Infact it should be the most cost-effective fighter in IAF, which is why air policing roles, are very likely to be diverted from Mig 29s for example to LCA.


I believe then that the Govt of India is taking a very wrong approach in establishing an Aero Industry with regards to the economic and financial environment that India has. Frankly.. for a **** poor sanctioned country like Pakistan setting up a nationalized Aero industry makes sense because there are very little places it can procure and find the technology needed to make an aircraft.

The aim for indigenisation is based on the same issues for Pakistan and India, mainly based on the poor experience of both countries with operational limitations during sanction times. In Indias case a big driver for indigenisation is also the bad after sale support of Russia, which would be less of a problem for an Indian fighter, with all spares, weapons and techs produced in India. You could also add upgrade and customisation costs, that are higher when you have to procure them from foreign countries. So it has nothing to do if India has money, or Pakistan hasn't, but with being less dependent on foreign countries and having more control during war / sanction times. Both countries know that neither JF 17 nor LCA will be high end fighters, but as a cost-effective and independent base for the forces, as well as the industry, these projects are crucial for anything that might come in future!

Just look at the NG fighters developments for example. India is not capable to develop it today without help and anything what we know so far, is based on the LCA project. Our relation with Russian at least gave us the FGFA, but if that wasn't possible, we would be as dependent on the US and their approvals, as any of the F35 partners and operators. Which all have money, but might end up with a low capable fighter, several operational restrictions and hardly any benefit for their industries. So money is definitely not everything!


On the other hand, India is booming, its private sector is booming and capitalism is being taken in by strides.
There are over five financial and industry giants in the Indian Private sector who were already willing to be involved in the MMRCA project and are quite capable of investing in the technology and infrastructure to set up a private manufacturing consortium.

Which themselfs are only babies in the aero field and therefor can only take over minor parts of such a development today. Which of them could develop the fighter engine, the AESA radar, the avionics? Even in MMRCA, state owned companies take over the crucial licence productions, like HAL for the engine and some of the avionics, BEL for the radar, BEL and DARE for EW parts, which shows that there is still a big difference of capability, which money alone doesn't equalise that fast. Even with privat companies taking part in AMCA, anything before 2022 is simply unrealistic, which again can be seen in the F35 projects, which doesn't lack money and doesn't lack experienced manufacturers either, but still face more than enough difficulties. Infact, for Indias development capabilities LCA MK1 and 2 are what F35 is for US development capabilities and that won't change by starting many projects at the same time, but by finishing such an important project like LCA to have a base to start with.
 
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China is struggling to make a 4th gen fighter engine on their own. India has almost given up. Both these countries, as well as Russia and Europe are setting up production lines for 4++ gen fighters as we speak. Yes, China will have a few squadrons of stealth fighters, and so will we (FGFA). But they will also have plenty of non stealth fighters, so will we.

Just a correction here, there are different systems for naming fighter's "generation", when the Chinese members are talking about 4th gen fighter engines, they are referring to the generation that include F-22, F-35 and J-20. The "4++" you are mentioning here is same generation as J-10, J-11 and J-15. The indigenous engine for these planes have been out for quite a while.
 
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LCA will be painfully slow and has suggested IN MANY cases irrelevant to some battlefield scenarios.

But I firmly believe ONLY GOOD will come from TEJAS project. NOT bad in any shape or FORM.

even if IAF only induct 40 mk1 TEJAS BY 2020 its stil worth the EXPERIENCE that HAL/DRDO will have gained.
 
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A couple of factors to be kept in mind.
1. The real delay in the Tejas program has not happened in recent years but in the last decade. It wil take a few years to go from IOC to FOC, but the real problem was that very slow progress between the first prototype till 2011, largely because of delays in the engine and radar program, and because of the sanctions.
2. Most of the PAF will continue to be early block F-16s, J-7 and JF-17. The LCA mk 1 is at least a match for any of these and the LCA mk 2 will be considerably superior. Hence 40 Mk 1 and 150 odd Mk 2 will take care of the Western front (with maybe 40 Su-30), freeing up most of the 400 Su-30 / Rafale for the China front.
 
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The amount of money spend in LCA program or will be spend,,, I sometimes thinks what IF PAF were provided with such amount to carry on the JF-17 program (IF wishes were horses),,, The point i'm trying to make is Indian defence production establishment is awful in delivering performance in time despite hugh amount of funds
 
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India has learned a great deal from Tejas program in technical and project management fields. It now should declare it a research program,pull the plug and direct funds and technical know how towards AMCA.

They can even have the opportunity to copy Pakistan... and they already tried to copy the avionics of JF-17.. back in 2006.. its cockpit looked like that of third generation... with lot of wiring behind the instruments.

Problem in Teja is design issues, which can never be fixed.... Indians have been learning on Pakistani forums.. hope they will get rid of delta wings or add canards.
 
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They can even have the opportunity to copy Pakistan... and they already tried to copy the avionics of JF-17.. back in 2006.. its cockpit looked like that of third generation... with lot of wiring behind the instruments.

Problem in Teja is design issues, which can never be fixed.... Indians have been learning on Pakistani forums.. hope they will get rid of delta wings or add canards.

What design issues are you talking about? It lost relevance in the modern battlefield and it was too little too late. And pray tell me why to get rid of delta and add canards?

The LCA envisaged as a point defence fighter needed to have a quicker climb rate and good ITR which it has. But as the air warfare doctrine changed later there was inclusion of STR also in the ASR. So I think the cranked pure delta configuration was a much better idea. With the advent of LEVCONS IMHO the canards have lost all their relevance. BTW LCA Navy has LEVCONS installed in it.

And Copied the avionics of JF 17? Samtel-Thales were already installing MFD on the Su 30 MKI before the JF 17 prototype flew. The Mission computer was also part of Project Vetrivel which ended up in producing the LCA Tejas. The FCLAW was there from the start as the fighter was a relaxed static stability fighter during the design phase itself. The radar program also started before the JF 17 flew. Elbit HMD was there since the PV 3 flew. So what did we copy from the JF 17? The layout earlier resembled the SU 30 MKI more.
 
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A couple of factors to be kept in mind.
1. The real delay in the Tejas program has not happened in recent years but in the last decade. It wil take a few years to go from IOC to FOC, but the real problem was that very slow progress between the first prototype till 2011, largely because of delays in the engine and radar program, and because of the sanctions.
2. Most of the PAF will continue to be early block F-16s, J-7 and JF-17. The LCA mk 1 is at least a match for any of these and the LCA mk 2 will be considerably superior. Hence 40 Mk 1 and 150 odd Mk 2 will take care of the Western front (with maybe 40 Su-30), freeing up most of the 400 Su-30 / Rafale for the China front.

Yes, the main problem started in the planning stages, because we wanted too much, too fast. Wrt to the fighter placement, IAF won't spread fighters only to a dedicated borderline. Rafales will be operated on eastern, northern and western borders, just like LCA, or MKI.
Technically LCA offers more than enough capability, there are not many fighters in South Asia with a similar low RCS, a more than decent combo of radar/BVR missile, HMS/WVR missile and a propper EWS.

The amount of money spend in LCA program or will be spend,,, I sometimes thinks what IF PAF were provided with such amount to carry on the JF-17 program (IF wishes were horses),,, The point i'm trying to make is Indian defence production establishment is awful in delivering performance in time despite hugh amount of funds

The mistake you make is to equal money to performance, if that would be the case, China must be way further in the engine development fields and PAF would not struggle to take JF 17B2 and J10B with Russian engines right? The fact however is, that money doesn't equal experience and know how and since we don't have this in the aero field, the money that was spent in the LCA and even in the Kaveri program (although it failed) was well spended. The problem is mainly the project planning that was done poorly and I hope the responsible people will learn from their mistakes for the future too.


@ all, stick to topic please!
 
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Once ioc-2 is given, HAL will produce 20 sp's in ioc-2 standard. That means atleast 2014, 2015 and 2016 gone. That time foc will be achieved, HAL will produce another 20 sp's in foc standard. 2017-2019. Once foc achieved, it will combat ready.
Reporters always twist the news. Those who regularly following lca must know this.
 
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Yep, it makes more sense to redirect the resources into the ACMA project instead.

But how can one transfer a resource to another project, without completing the 1st one? In what experience one will go?
I know it takes time, but transfering a half filled resource to another project, will again result in a half filled project, which We are damn afraid of.
 
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They can even have the opportunity to copy Pakistan... and they already tried to copy the avionics of JF-17.. back in 2006.. its cockpit looked like that of third generation... with lot of wiring behind the instruments.

Problem in Teja is design issues, which can never be fixed.... Indians have been learning on Pakistani forums.. hope they will get rid of delta wings or add canards.

Please explain!!!
 
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Scooth over to JF-17 threads to see Pakistan contribution instead of reading on Wikipedia. Videos of Pakistan Aeronautical complex showing complete JF-17 manufacturing process being done in Pakistan including avionics which shows what contribution Pakistan had in JF-17.

We are manufacturing complete MKI since last decade (even engine) .... So what’s so special in that??
 
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