Tata Deal With Lockheed Martin effect on PAF F16 fleet

[Cyberian]

The United States first offered the F-16 to India all the way back in 2006. It is now 2017. Why do you think India had rejected it back then?

US offers F-16 jet fighters to India

March 3, 2006 (by Lieven Dewitte) - The United States offered to sell India advanced fighter aircraft and other high-tech arms as the next step in a rapidly expanding military relationship between the two countries.


A 13th FS F-16C block 50 #92-3894 taxis past Indian Air Force MiG-27 fighters on the flightline at Kalaijunda AB, India during Exercise 'Cope India 06'. American and Indian Airmen are participating in exercise Cope India 06, which began on November 7th 2005. The exercise will help enhance interoperability between the two air forces. The squadron deployed from Misawa Air Base, Japan. [USAF photo by Capt. John Redfield]

The announcement by the Pentagon came during a visit to the south Asia nation by President George W. Bush, who cemented a new strategic partnership with India earlier Thursday with a landmark agreement on civilian nuclear technology.

"The United States is committed to providing state-of-the-art fighter aircraft in response to India's requirements for a multi-role combat aircraft," the Pentagon said. "We have indicated our intention to offer both the F-16 and the F-18, both combat proven aircraft," it said.

The Pentagon also pledged to work to make additional capabilities available to India as they enter the US force, and said its proposal also addresses India's interest in technology transfers and indigenous co-production.

The statement portrayed the offer as the next step in taking the burgeoning US military relationship with India to a new level.

"It is our goal to help meet India's needs in the defense realm, and to provide important capabilities and technologies that India seeks. We are on a path to accomplish this," the Pentagon said.

India has said it wants to buy 126 multi-role fighter aircraft over the next 15 years to upgrade its forces.

Russia and France have been India's traditional suppliers of aircraft, but New Delhi is now considering a wider range of fighter aircraft, including the Lockheed Martin F-16 and Boeing F/A-18.

The Pentagon stated that their proposal will also address India's interest in technology transfer and indigenous co-production.

US offers F-16 jet fighters to India F-16.net

 

[Fledgingwings]

Now PAF is doomed

 

[John Reese]

The United States first offered the F-16 to India all the way back in 2005. It is now 2017. Why do you think India had rejected it back then?

Not Par With RFP Rafale certainly the best And was MMrCA f-16 Lesser developed

this Is New BLK 70 With 5 generation features RADAR APG 83 and other enhancement And RFP is of Single engine fighter To replace mig-23 and Mig-27

Though Gripen in Too there

 

[The BrOkEn HeArT]

Technically its good news for Pakistan, if India selects F-16's than PAF will be forced to chose a 5th Generation or an 4++ Gen Fighter for its fleet ..
I doubt that production will start by 2021 but it might delay as 2024-5 , and by than PAF will be retiring their old block F-shola , and inducting either J-31 , Typhoon , Su-35 or any J-series from China .. India getting F-16 with production line means billion of dollars will be given to US/LM and this will end or at least delay the plans for PAKFA from Russia that might make Russians to offer us Su-35's but its a big IF ..
so and If Paf goes for J-31 and wait for TF-X till 2030 .. than we are good to tackle any IAF fleet that include Rafale , F-16 , Su-30 as front line fighters ..

But Modi has different plan for Pakistan before 2025.

 

[assassin123]

I was just reading in another thread that F-16 sees other F-16 as friends not bogeys. That would be a serious disadvantage for India against Pakistan and vice versa if true?

@Windjammer

I'm very sure that ain't true

 

[Sinnerman108]

http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/F-16-deal-turns-on-the-afterburners-for-Make-in-India

News hs been breaking that indian multi national giant TATA has signed contracts with Lockheed Martin to build the F16/70 in india .

Production should start around 2021-2022

No idea how many planes to be produced OR who for

The question I have FOR Pakistanis does this mean PAF should /will retire their falcons and cease looking for more FALCONS

Is this a serious threat to national security to give the Indians the locks and keys to the most advanced war plane in PAF and more...



HOW quicly can PAF REPLACE the F16 & at What cost

TATA will produce in india IF they are awarded the contract and F-16 is indeed selected to replace
Indian planes.

Until such time that happens, we will plan.

As of now, we are in working with Turks to stock up parts, and buying used planes
while in parallel we will keep improving Thunder to provide alternative defensive platform.

What You should be concentrating is that if you cut russians out of this deal like MMRCA, then what kind of
side effects will you suffer from ?

It is a game of wait - plan - act for PAF.

 

[singlefighter]

But Modi has different plan for Pakistan before 2025.

We are listening these words since independence modi cant do any action against Pakistan.he is just fooling you indiots

 

[randomradio]

Isn't this offer exclusively for F-16 Block 70. What does it have to do with other block F-16's being operated by other air forces.

Also the offer just started. To finalize it will take many years especially considering Indian bureaucracy it will take some years before the offer matures, if it at all matures.

MRCA competition for 126 fighters started in early 2000 and never materialized. IAF ended up ordering 36 jets instead of 126 however I doubt it was under MRCA. It was a government to government deal.

India will become the global supply hub for F-16 spares if the F-16 is chosen by the IAF.

The MMRCA is dead. Now, requirement has bifurcated into a Single Engine and Twin Engine tender. So about 400 jets are in line to be purchased. Basically, MMRCA has become two programs and the numbers have tripled. After the SE tender we will have the TE tender.

Out of the three options of GripenE, F-16-B70 and LCA,.. F-16-B70 looks the most advanced and hence the ideal choice for our light category requirement.

LCA has already been ordered. It has nothing to with the F-16 and Gripen.

Indian pipe dream which will not happen.

Yup. IAF prefers the Gripen.

So it's an American pipe dream to sell F-16s to India.

TATA will produce in india IF they are awarded the contract and F-16 is indeed selected to replace
Indian planes.

Until such time that happens, we will plan.

Once IAF makes the selection by early next year, contract should be signed by 2019.

It's only about 2 years away. The first delivery is by 2022.

 

[Nalini]

TATA will produce in india IF they are awarded the contract and F-16 is indeed selected to replace
Indian planes.

Until such time that happens, we will plan.

As of now, we are in working with Turks to stock up parts, and buying used planes
while in parallel we will keep improving Thunder to provide alternative defensive platform.

What You should be concentrating is that if you cut russians out of this deal like MMRCA, then what kind of
side effects will you suffer from ?

It is a game of wait - plan - act for PAF.

Russia has taken India's loyalty & softness for a ride. They have played a lot of double game with India, treating India like a slave & giving threats & blackmail of Pakistan & China. You can't exploit a friend just because you have a technological upper-hand. We have the money.

Modi is doing the right thing by putting Putin in his place.

Russian "Gorshkov" aircraft carrier was lying idle with Russia for decades, because they could not finish it & could not afford the cost to maintain. They said India, take it for free & just pay 900 million for finishing it & for all the fittings. India thought, it is quite cheap & a massive bargain, but after the signing & getting the money, that is absolutely not the Russian attitude.

Russia kept giving excuses to modify this & that, while asking for additional costs, rising again and again,Finally, the cost of ship modification was set at $2 billion 930 million & the delivery kept delaying for more than a decade. We ended up paying 2 Billion extra.

Same story with Sukhoi 30MKI TOT production. After getting money & we setting up all the production line & in to production, they fooled us & kept all the important parts, engine & codes to themselves. That's betrayal

Brahmos was co-production, their contribution was engine & seeker tech. Once everything is developed on our cost, now they make a advanced version of their own & counter selling to the countries showing interest in Brahmos at a cheaper price. They have increased the Engine & seeker tech price multi fold making the missile very expensive now & we can't sell it without their permission as it's co-production. This is cheating, use our money to develop & they make their own & lag the further up-gradation so they can sell the upgraded ones before us. Once we develop they have captured the market.

India being loyal for all the help of the Russians in the past, put up with all these nonsense of Russia, when they were pocketing our billions & growing their defense industry. Now as they are getting little more of Chinese money Putin is trying to use mind games & black mail to get our money.

Not anymore. They will work on our terms, because we don't earn money to put it at Russia's feet on their order. Our money we will spend they way we want. We supported Russia in their hard times when the Soviet collapsed by pumping in billions of dollars when many countries kept knocking at our door to buy from them. Previous Gov.ts only partially shifted their money to Israel, France, America & west. But Modi has taken the bold step to cancel the FGFA because it doesn't suit our terms. Putin will come back desperately soon for another quick bargain seeing the F16 deal announcement.

In 1999 when at war we asked for many parts & equipment's from Russia, they just put a price which is unacceptable how a friend ditches you when in need. It was Israel who helped us with many equipment at that time & we went for it. That was the first big hurt we experienced of our friendship. A friend in need is not helped is not a true friend.

It's a very hard-bitten situation for Putin today with sanctions, they have to bend to India. No other choice. They know atleast Indians are trust worthy than Chinese. If Russia loses India, it will be it's downfall. If I am not wrong there will be soon many people who will come out in procession against Putin's policy. You should see it by the turn of 2018. Russian people are very angry with Putin for building mistrust with India.

We still love Russians from the bottom of our heart for standing by us in the past especially 1971 & we will give our life for Russia, but Putin needs to go.

 

[randomradio]

Putin has taken India's loyalty & softness for a ride. He has played lot of double game with India, treating India like a slave by giving threats & blackmail of Pakistan & China. You can't exploit a friend just because you have a technological upper-hand. We have the money.

Modi is doing the right thing by putting Putin in his place.
Russian "Gorshkov" aircraft carrier was lying idle with Russia because they could not finish it & could not afford the cost to maintain. They said take it for free & just pay 900 million for finishing it & for all the fittings. India thinks, it is still quite cheap & a massive bargain, but after the signing, that is absolutely not the Russian attitude.

Russia kept giving excuses to modify this & that while asking for additional costs, rising again and again,Finally, the cost of ship modification was set at $2 billion 930 million & the delivery kept delaying.

Same story with Sukhoi 30MKI TOT production. After getting money & we setting up all the production line & in to production, they fooled us & kept all the important parts, engine & codes to themselves. That's betrayal

Brahmos was co-production, their contribution was engine & seeker tech. Once everything is developed on our cost, now they make a advanced version of their own & counter selling to the countries showing interest in Brahmos at a cheaper price. They have increased the Engine & seeker tech price multi fold. This is cheating, use our money to develop & they make their own & lag the further up-gradation so they can sell the upgraded ones before us. Once we develop they have captured the market.

India being loyal for all the help of the Russians in the past, put up with all these nonsense of Russia, when they were pocketing our billions & growing their defense industry. Now as they are getting little more of Chinese money Putin is trying to use mind games & black mail to get our money.

Not anymore. They will work on our terms, because we don't earn money to put it at Russia's feet on their order. Our money we will spend they way we want. It's a very hard-bitten situation for Putin today with sanctions, they have to bend to India. No other choice. They know atleast Indians are trust worthy than Chinese. If Russia loses India, it will be it's downfall. If I am not wrong there will be soon many people who will come out in procession against Putin's policy. You should see it by the turn of 2018. Russian people are very angry with Putin for building mistrust with India

Dude, everything you said is wrong.

 

[Nalini]

Dude, everything you said is wrong.

I closely study & follow Defence & economic affairs. I think I am right. Tell me where I am wrong. There are many more things, which I didn't want to tell here, but let me confess some of it here today.

Our Tejas & Arjun Tank would have been a success more than decade ago easily, if the Armed forces supported DRDO. We would be exporting it today & by now we should have had the AMCA flying. These Military officers take huge bribes from Russia & other international Arms manufacturer, & they keep showing some or the other faults to reject, so DRDO don't have money to upgrade it & Govt scraps the project or hold back the funding. So we stay dependent on Russians & the west. There is lot of corruption & mal practice at the top level of Armed forces, which many people don't know. And the common man thinks DRDO & Indian Military establishments are in-capable.

The previous Gov.t are also involved in the corruption. It's Modi who's changing all these. He's sacking all the Officers who is a suspect, even the Military establishments are in close watch like DRDO, HAL, NAL, ADA, etc

Modi is approving F16, because It's an American proven technology & no officer can say it's faulty & incapable, even though it will be 6-7 years for it to start rolling out. But it's manufactured in India. So no kickbacks & bribe involved. Do good with it. No more foreign purchases where the Military heads decide which is good or bad. The Gov.t will decide what you will get

 

[randomradio]

I closely study & follow Defence & economic affairs. I think I am right. Tell me where I am wrong. There are many more things, which I didn't want to tell here, but let me confess today.

Our Tejas & Arjun Tank would have been a success more than decade ago easily, if the Armed forces supported DRDO. We would be exporting it today & by now we should have had the AMCA flying. These Military officers take huge bribes from Russia & other international Arms manufacturer, so DRDO don't have money to upgrade it & Govt scraps the project. So we stay dependent on Russians & the west. There is lot of corruption & mal practice at the top level of Armed forces, which many people don't know.

The previous Gov.t are also involved in the corruption. It's Modi who's changing all these. He's sacking all the Officers who is a suspect, even the Military establishments are in close watch like DRDO, HAL, NAL, ADA, etc

Everything was wrong. Even in this post, everything is wrong.

Gorky - Both IN and Russians are to blame. They found problems after they cut the ship open. And a lot of money went into modernizing the ship as well, converting analog to digital, that wasn't the plan earlier. That's why there was an increase in the price. Had we not done this at the time, we would have done it now, at a higher cost and more delays.
MKI - We are producing 80-85% of the aircraft in terms of components in India.
Brahmos - They paid 50% of the JV by clearing debt. Even today, Brahmos is Russia's most advanced supersonic cruise missile. They sold old Yakhonts to a few other countries because Brahmos export clearance came only last year. Many countries have lined up, 10+. And the Yakhont versions sold were not the same as what Brahmos was designed for, like Vietnam. Most of the sales went to Hezbollah and Syria. Indonesia chose Yakhont because Brahmos wasn't cleared. Both Vietnam and Indonesia are in line for Brahmos.
FGFA - It's not been canceled. We will either buy PAK FA or delay the FGFA a bit more. We will soon be signing a MKI upgrade contract which will use PAK FA technologies.

As for this post,
Arjun - Wasn't ready when the army wanted it. There was no infrastructure and logistics developed for a 60+T tank either. It was 10 years late. Even today, the version IA wants isn't ready. By now, the first batch of T-90s have already finished half their life.
LCA - Even ADA will tell you they failed in delivering in time. Their failure, as mentioned by CAG, has nothing to do with the IAF. Same as Arjun.

Rest of the post was pretty much nonsense, not worth replying to. Modi has not sacked officers.

Modi is approving F16, because It's an American proven technology & no officer can say it's faulty & incapable, even though it will be 6-7 years for it to start rolling out. But it's manufactured in India. So no kickbacks & bribe involved. Do good with it. No more foreign purchases where the Military heads decide which is good or bad. The Gov.t will decide what you will get

Modi has not approved the F-16 either. IAF is yet to choose it. Regardless, it in no way conflicts with Russian deals. Zero effect.

Most of the defence related corruption happens in Indian DPSUs.

 

[Jammer]

This does not change much from PAF's perspective, the procurement of a 4+ (or ++) generation aircraft by the IAF has always been anticipated. What is curious is the somewhat (at least to the outside observer) hodgepodge approach at fighter procurement by the Indian government. Both the Rafale and the F16-70 will obviously require there own specific logistic and technical support, which will stretch the capabilities of available technical staff, ground crew and facilities. The transfer of tech is a positive, however, especially in case of the USA, TOT will come with a fat foreign policy middle finger probe. The ultimate consequence of non compliance to US bidding has often even led to military and economic sanctions as demonstrated many times before by changing US governments over the years. Then there is the Tejas, considering absolutes like finite capital, specific requirements for a 4+ fighter and continued effort to look overseas for a solution, where does this domestic effort stand? Is there room for a Tejas? Would it even be cost effective to pursue it or would that capital be reserved for the joint development of a 5th gen fighter bomber with Russia? Speaking of Russia, as an Indian ally that has supposedly stood the test of time, how would a groundbreaking relationship with the USA effect Russia, will they start playing a different tune?
As far as the PAF is concerned, they are developing a relatively inexpensive but potent point defense fighter like the JF17 which in its new upcoming block will easily settle into a gen 4 if not gen 4+ category. It is TOT and I would be a fool to say that it does not come without Chinese influence but when you are a developing country sometimes you have to make a choice between the heavies you will and will not rely on as your partner. However, when you talk about extended plans I think you will see that the PAF realizes the future belongs to the stealth frame, obviously coupled with state of the art electronic accessories. Stay tuned!

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

Russia has taken India's loyalty & softness for a ride.

If what you said is "true", then the only problem is India's negotiation. If the Russians promised something but failed to deliver, lets say your SU-30 allegations for example, then that's on India to take to court.

But I think post#57 has responded with proofs.

As for F-16 vs FGFA, these 2 are entirely different generations. Unless the US offers the F-35 to India, Russia has nothing to fear other than India going solo/ finding a different partner on a Gen 5.

For everyone who thinks Gen 4/+/.5/++/etc will be entirely rotated out from airforces is crazy. Unless the e.o.s. are improved Gen 5 will always be selectively acquired by a handful of nations.

 

[Storm Force]

USA desperate to sell block 70 I think they will.get their way finally,