Tata Deal With Lockheed Martin effect on PAF F16 fleet

[Incog_nito]

I think Now PAF will be considering J-31/FC-31 or J-20/FC-20 as a replacement of F-16s Block-15 and Block-52s. I am sure PAC is in the process of signing a MOU with China over local assembly of about 100-150 of these starting from 2020 or early. F-16s has seen it's days in PAF and have lived its life.

If PAF will not be looking to sell off their old F-16s then they will sell off Block-52s.

 

[Alphacharlie]

There are good people and there are bad people in all countries. It is unfair to characterized the whole nation with such lewd remarks. Pakistan has faced off the massive problems. It has defeated one super power and it is winning against the other one. That was a necessity which carried costs. We should be proud of our country's achievements and work to correct its problems.

With regards to the F-16s, yes we faced strong headwinds in recent times. But it was an absolutely correct path as we already have the complete infrastructure in place for operating the F-16. If we abandon that, it becomes extremely costly to switch to other platforms.

Now that purchase of additional F-16s has been torpedoed, it is a setback but not a catastrophe. Pakistan has been brilliant enough to cement its alliance with China, and as we are natural partners, we know that we can source our leading fighters from them. So it is not an issue.

Let me tell you one more thing. India can spend billions of dollars on buying latest equipment, but it can never build a strong enough force to attack Pakistan. Almost all aspects of the IAF are in tatters, from its aging Mig-21s to its disastrous pilot training program which has caused their pilot-to-cockpit ratio to fall below critical levels. Add to that the fact IAF has to split its forces to face China, and our alliance with the Chinese, and it is no secret that Pakistan has India pinned down.

Be proud of your country.

Please go ahead.

Sir - Your Analysis is Ground Breaking.

Must Thank you for such ---deep insight.

 

[araz]

I think Now PAF will be considering J-31/FC-31 or J-20/FC-20 as a replacement of F-16s Block-15 and Block-52s. I am sure PAC is in the process of signing a MOU with China over local assembly of about 100-150 of these starting from 2020 or early. F-16s has seen it's days in PAF and have lived its life.

If PAF will not be looking to sell off their old F-16s then they will sell off Block-52s.

The only problem is J31 is no where near ready. There is more chance of J20 coming at the moment than J31. Even that will take another 5-7 years. For what it is worth it would be unlikely for IAF to go for F16s irrespective of the TATA deal for the same reasons they have not considered it before. Fro m PAF perspective it has to wait and let a fifth generation platform mature. We will in the interim be concentrating on developing the 3rd block of JFT and perhaps some more F16s if we can get them. I could be wrong but this is what makes sense to me.
A

 

[DarX]

The only problem is J31 is no where near ready. There is more chance of J20 coming at the moment than J31. Even that will take another 5-7 years. For what it is worth it would be unlikely for IAF to go for F16s irrespective of the TATA deal for the same reasons they have not considered it before. Fro m PAF perspective it has to wait and let a fifth generation platform mature. We will in the interim be concentrating on developing the 3rd block of JFT and perhaps some more F16s if we can get them. I could be wrong but this is what makes sense to me.
A

You are absolutely right in observing that the J-31 is not as yet ready. The development is continuing, and unlike the Indians who have declared the LCA Tejas operational for propaganda purposes, the Chinese will only put it into production once it has developed into an integrated weapons system. However, I don't think the J-20 has matured either and in any case, it is highly probable that the J-20 will not be coming to Pakistan. Reasons can include the Chinese avoiding to export it to keep its technology safe from the Americans, and it being too large for Pakistan's requirements. I say that because we have also seen how the PAF has avoided inducting twin engined planes up till now and the J-20 is a massive plane which most definitely will judged as overkill for the PAF. The J-20, and the J-31, also lack suitable engines. Both of them are powered by older Russian engines which are not up to the mark in competing with the engines installed in the Western 5th Generation Jets.

So it seems like the PAF will focus on developing and commissioning a potent force of JF-17s. With integration of SD-10s and AESA, the JF-17s are as lethal as the SU-30 at those ranges, since they will be deploying the same weapons as their opponents and will be operating on home turf under their own AWACS coverage. The JF-17s will also help them streamline MRO support and training programs. With the money that they save, they can then look at the latest planes available at that time. In the meanwhile, our F-16s will provide ample deterrence for any misadventure by the IAF. We must remember that any aggressive force must have a numerical superiority of 2.2:1 to have any chance of a successful strike, and the IAF cannot muster that for another 10 years at the current rate of modernization of both forces.

 

[denel]

You are absolutely right in observing that the J-31 is not as yet ready. The development is continuing, and unlike the Indians who have declared the LCA Tejas operational for propaganda purposes, the Chinese will only put it into production once it has developed into an integrated weapons system. However, I don't think the J-20 has matured either and in any case, it is highly probable that the J-20 will not be coming to Pakistan. Reasons can include the Chinese avoiding to export it to keep its technology safe from the Americans, and it being too large for Pakistan's requirements. I say that because we have also seen how the PAF has avoided inducting twin engined planes up till now and the J-20 is a massive plane which most definitely will judged as overkill for the PAF. The J-20, and the J-31, also lack suitable engines. Both of them are powered by older Russian engines which are not up to the mark in competing with the engines installed in the Western 5th Generation Jets.

So it seems like the PAF will focus on developing and commissioning a potent force of JF-17s. With integration of SD-10s and AESA, the JF-17s are as lethal as the SU-30 at those ranges, since they will be deploying the same weapons as their opponents and will be operating on home turf under their own AWACS coverage. The JF-17s will also help them streamline MRO support and training programs. With the money that they save, they can then look at the latest planes available at that time. In the meanwhile, our F-16s will provide ample deterrence for any misadventure by the IAF. We must remember that any aggressive force must have a numerical superiority of 2.2:1 to have any chance of a successful strike, and the IAF cannot muster that for another 10 years at the current rate of modernization of both forces.

From an independent view point, while it is good to see either countries mature some level of infrastructure, one realisation or insight i can offer - you cannot trust the americans for any level of hardware TOT etc; their political winds are ever changing and they never honour their alliances. We saw it first hand on our side when we were sanctioned the hell out. It made us better. My take is to ensure development occurs on home turf only. Putting in assembly lines are just not worth anything - HAL has tremendous experiences unfortunately the bureaucracy of the government has stiffled a lot of progress - when you compare the inroads made in the space program by india vs the ability to put a good fighter plane - it shows that there is no lack of expertise but no solid political will - everything is based off kickbacks which is unfortunately part of this greater game. Same with Pakistan with their jf-17 program - baby steps - in 10 years the platform has matured considerably yet this is just the very start.
Ultimately, i always put it down to this - none is better or worse - it is the poverty, health, education which need to happen on either side (said this a few times, sounding like bad record); once that is achieved all this bravado goes into the backwaters - just look at Germany/France as a comparative example after WW2 - complete occupation etc yet they went forward to cement common unions - that is what i would love to see; then sky will be the limit.

 

[Jammer]

From an independent view point, while it is good to see either countries mature some level of infrastructure, one realisation or insight i can offer - you cannot trust the americans for any level of hardware TOT etc; their political winds are ever changing and they never honour their alliances. We saw it first hand on our side when we were sanctioned the hell out. It made us better. My take is to ensure development occurs on home turf only. Putting in assembly lines are just not worth anything - HAL has tremendous experiences unfortunately the bureaucracy of the government has stiffled a lot of progress - when you compare the inroads made in the space program by india vs the ability to put a good fighter plane - it shows that there is no lack of expertise but no solid political will - everything is based off kickbacks which is unfortunately part of this greater game. Same with Pakistan with their jf-17 program - baby steps - in 10 years the platform has matured considerably yet this is just the very start.
Ultimately, i always put it down to this - none is better or worse - it is the poverty, health, education which need to happen on either side (said this a few times, sounding like bad record); once that is achieved all this bravado goes into the backwaters - just look at Germany/France as a comparative example after WW2 - complete occupation etc yet they went forward to cement common unions - that is what i would love to see; then sky will be the limit.

Well said!!!

 

[Glass]

have a question. Does that mean that every f16 user which wants to modify its f16 to blck 70 has to modernize it in India or is this blck 70 thing a special treatment for indians ?

 

[GURU DUTT]

From an independent view point, while it is good to see either countries mature some level of infrastructure, one realisation or insight i can offer - you cannot trust the americans for any level of hardware TOT etc; their political winds are ever changing and they never honour their alliances. We saw it first hand on our side when we were sanctioned the hell out. It made us better. My take is to ensure development occurs on home turf only. Putting in assembly lines are just not worth anything - HAL has tremendous experiences unfortunately the bureaucracy of the government has stiffled a lot of progress - when you compare the inroads made in the space program by india vs the ability to put a good fighter plane - it shows that there is no lack of expertise but no solid political will - everything is based off kickbacks which is unfortunately part of this greater game. Same with Pakistan with their jf-17 program - baby steps - in 10 years the platform has matured considerably yet this is just the very start.
Ultimately, i always put it down to this - none is better or worse - it is the poverty, health, education which need to happen on either side (said this a few times, sounding like bad record); once that is achieved all this bravado goes into the backwaters - just look at Germany/France as a comparative example after WW2 - complete occupation etc yet they went forward to cement common unions - that is what i would love to see; then sky will be the limit.

but problem is wise guy we are living in a prcticle world where wars do happen and countries do have tendency to attack each other and pakistan and india have fought 4 wars and there are very great chances of 5th war in very near future so we are prepaoring for it ever since the 4th ended so keep your good words with you thanks for them we know all that

now the point is TATA is a Pvt compant and its F16 Blk70 deal with LM will not have any benefits for HAL or ADE both governemnt realted companies of india so you need to understand it but it will for sure help IAF and both USAF and Israeli Air Force and retired experst form both will help us fill the gaps in training and tactics and the singaporeans o course so dont worry about that part too

and since most of the israeli air to air and air to ground munations was developied with F16& F15 in mind it can and will work on Blk70s as well just a few tweaks in software and its plug and play so dont worry about that too

and we are hell bent for at least 12 to 14 full squads of them and then F35 for both IAF & IN so get ready we are new US strategic defene allies in south asia deal with it

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The bigger problem is leak of advance technology for nation involved in Human Rights Violations in Kashmir (India)

Example:

• Smart bombs, which target large tank columns
  
• Various technologies deployed on aircraft carrier to launch crafts
  
• Missile technology export
  
• Space tech export
  
• Undisclosed export of Nuclear tech
  
• Export of P-8 which puts submarines and ships in danger
  
• F16 tech transfer is nothing but a backstab becasue we after being partner for 20-30 years are not even allowed to change minor things in the plane
• Advance Apache Helicopter fleet

Also there are side avenues to export US technology thru Israeli channel pretty much a blackmarket methods to export highly dangerous technology

• Drones
  
• Surveilance Radars
  
• Anti Air Weaponry etc

The real problem is spectrum of Advance weaponry being leaked into Indian hands by direct and indirect channels

Can only be described simply as a Backstab when you view the big picture

The coverted Non-Nato Ally has not resulted in any gain for Pakistan apart from few F16 kits or may be refurbishment of C130 60's planes and may be a few old trainer crafts and may be few APC which were already rusting

Things have not worked as people hoped in Bush's era

While our Administration still welcomes their collegues from US with open arms for last 30-40 years but clearly all the weapon going to India are Anti Pakistan Policy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

• We opened trade channel from Pakistani ports to Afghanistan under US pressure what we got in return was escalation of Terrorism in Pakistan
• We got few F16 kits for our old planes which were well maintanied but still older tech compared to rest of world
• Few new planes hardly anything we could not have bought in international market
• When Afghan citizens were involved in terrorism in Pakistan , we could not attack Afghanistan due to US pressure
  
• Sure we purchased some Orion anti submarine crafts but still these are older tech compared to P-8
• What else is on table 5-10 Super cobra helicopters worth nothing much in war

 

[Erroroverload]

we are hell bent for at least 12 to 14 full squads of them and then F35 for both IAF & IN so get ready we are new US strategic defene allies in south asia deal with it

We have done in the past and we will deal with you in future as well. no need for me to further elaborate this.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Lack of foreign policy is quite visible for Pakistan as we are wasting far too much time with US and falling behind vital tools and technology as year go by

If anyone has any doubt , do you recall the ban on Pakistani Engineering companies by US while their own companies are transferring unknown tech to India on daily basis

 

[Mahmood-ur-Rehman]

No one respect beggars and our leadership have made us one in front of world while Indian economic growth is allowing them good place in International affairs as they can pay for stuff by themselves.

There are other reason for that like India suits the West well we ideologically can not afford that.

 

[GURU DUTT]

We have done in the past and we will deal with you in future as well. no need for me to further elaborate this.

ya right

 

[Erroroverload]

ya right

Yes it is. have you any doubts. if you have i can clear these doubts.

 

[Incog_nito]

The only problem is J31 is no where near ready. There is more chance of J20 coming at the moment than J31. Even that will take another 5-7 years. For what it is worth it would be unlikely for IAF to go for F16s irrespective of the TATA deal for the same reasons they have not considered it before. Fro m PAF perspective it has to wait and let a fifth generation platform mature. We will in the interim be concentrating on developing the 3rd block of JFT and perhaps some more F16s if we can get them. I could be wrong but this is what makes sense to me.
A

I think PAF should pursue acquiring JAF F-16s as I think they will sell it - KSA will help them buy EF-2000s or F-16s Block-60.

IAF might go for F-18s and F-15s. But one thing is for sure F-35 A, B, & Cs are coming to India... As USA has no one to sell these Aircrafts - so India will gonna buy it.