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Tamil Civilization - the Origins

Sadly misleading article or deliberate lie for tamil propaganda. first, the most scientific (yet to date) attempt o decipher Indus script is lead by Shikaripura Ranganatha Rao and it gives significant clues that the script is very close to Sanskrit. People who were claiming the scripts to be original tamil are nowhere able to provide any supportive evidence. Secondly, Tamil as spoken now is significantly newer than Harappa period and nowhere it can be claimed as "Tamil". That language is long dead. So, the whole notion of harappa being "tamil" civilization is pure non-sense as much as calling it Kannada civilization.

S. R. Rao deserves credit for his archaeological work on Dwarka, but his linguistic speculations have found no substantial support anywhere. Even his interpretation of the submarine ruins that he investigated are heavily biased.

I agree that

Tamil as spoken now is significantly newer than Harappa period and nowhere it can be claimed as "Tamil". That language is long dead. So, the whole notion of harappa being "tamil" civilization is pure non-sense as much as calling it Kannada civilization.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-club/208899-tamil-civilization-origins-5.html#ixzz2TlccALIx

However, some time ago, mathematicians (based in a mathematics institute in Chennai, but not themselves ethnic Tamil) exploring the occurrence of patterns in scripts tested the patterns occurring in the few samples of Harappan pictographs against Sanskrit and Tamil, and found fairly strong matches in the patterns occurring in Tamil.

I wonder what to make of this.
 
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Very interesting, please say more .. hopefully logically.

tribal gods are all forcibly came under Hindu umbrella. eg: someone worshipped a living person, a local tribal god,A Bull or a Elephant - all are seen as another form/avatar of trio-gods of Hinduism Brahma-Vishnu-Maheshwar(Srushti-Sthiti-Samhara. samhara means destruction).

so, any pagan act is covered as a part of Hinduism in Bharat.

intriguing is, Maheshwar(Shiva) the Moon God worship is practised in Arabia and even now under a different religious name.

I think the tamils arrived from australia or africa, which is the reason why the natives of Australia have almost same language and same facial features as Tamils or Dravidians.
They has nothing to do with the IVC, a Indo-Aryan civilization

Of late, there have been more and more weird theories oozing out of the woodwork, couched in really weird language. It is scary to look at the kind of stuff that is floating around in Internet forums nowadays. It seems that the basic lack of education in humanities has made more and more of the Internet generation vulnerable to the kind of appalling rubbish floating around on the Internet. Now, what YouTube says is being cited as historical proof.

Having said that, there is a strong case for supposing, first, that the caste system is the method by which a certain cultural homogeneity was spread all over south Asia by speakers of Indo-Aryan, also identified with the Vedas and called Vedic Sanskrit, who came into India in 1500 BC or so (if one accepts elements of the AIT). As the original speakers of this language entered south Asia, they, being themselves ethnically diverse, encountered a series of tribes in the Indus plain first, thereafter in the Gangetic plain, who looked sufficiently different from them to excite their interest and fix their prejudices firmly enough to be reflected in their hymns to their steppe-based gods. These tribes, probably speaking a set of Dravidian languages, which are still to be found all over south India in a significantly developed and advanced form, but with an underlying sub-stratum of Austric languages which have still survived in north India, as their speakers were sheltered by the thick forests and wild regions in which they survived, were gradually converted to speaking Indo-Aryan in the north-west. This should have been around 1500 to 1350 BC.

Historically, we are still in the realm of pure speculation, strictly speaking, in the realm of proto-history:

Protohistoric may also refer to the transition period between the advent of literacy in a society and the writings of the first historians. The preservation of oral traditions may complicate matters as these can provide a secondary historical source for even earlier events. Colonial sites involving a literate group and a non-literate group are also studied as protohistoric situations.

It can also refer to a period in which fragmentary or external historical documents, not necessarily including a developed writing system, have been found. For instance, the Proto–Three Kingdoms of Korea, the Yayoi[1] and the Mississippian groups recorded by early European explorers are protohistoric.

Around 500 BC (give or take a century), the rules of grammar of the previous Indo-Aryan, or Vedic Sanskrit, were meticulously compiled by Panini, and formed a very well matured language which hardly changed thereafter in linguistic terms through the next 2,500 years. However, this was used as a cultural high language, and the language(s) which were used as a synthesising influence were the Prakrit languages, notably the western version, centred around Sauraseni dialect, and the eastern version, or Magadhi.

The same process continued in the south, and there seems to have been a process of synthesising of earlier faith systems; their gods got absorbed into the pantheon, and were worshipped along with those mentioned in the Vedas. The language of the local people remained the same, Proto-Dravidian. Their tribes were absorbed as new castes, just as their gods had been absorbed as additions to the pantheon.
 
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S. R. Rao deserves credit for his archaeological work on Dwarka, but his linguistic speculations have found no substantial support anywhere. Even his interpretation of the submarine ruins that he investigated are heavily biased.

I agree that



However, some time ago, mathematicians (based in a mathematics institute in Chennai, but not themselves ethnic Tamil) exploring the occurrence of patterns in scripts tested the patterns occurring in the few samples of Harappan pictographs against Sanskrit and Tamil, and found fairly strong matches in the patterns occurring in Tamil.

I wonder what to make of this.

You got it reverse. S S Rao used that method to try to decipher Indus script. It is not speculation. However, since none of the Indus signs have required length/number of characters for successful decipher, he has made some assumptions. Majority of the disputes are in that area. So, Indus script can safely be said to be either new language or "old sanskrit" but definitively not tamil. The tamil theory came from some symbols (6 fishes, 2 blocks of 3 fishes) matching tamil phrases (aar-min) and one old bronze leaflet containing one similar symbol. So, the theory is stuck there without any progress.
Also, my another point is, you can't call Rome as english empire just because latin and english are similar (sice german, spanis etc etc also originated from latin). Similarly, he "tamil" spoken now is developed as late as 13th century CE. So, Indus civilization MIGHT have been proto-tamil-telugu-tulu-kannada-malayalum etc etc etc civilizaion but definitely not a tamil civilization...
 
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tribal gods are all forcibly came under Hindu umbrella. eg: someone worshipped a living person, a local tribal god,A Bull or a Elephant - all are seen as another form/avatar of trio-gods of Hinduism Brahma-Vishnu-Maheshwar(Srushti-Sthiti-Samhara. samhara means destruction).

so, any pagan act is covered as a part of Hinduism in Bharat.

intriguing is, Maheshwar(Shiva) the Moon God worship is practised in Arabia and even now under a different religious name.

Maheshwara is not a moon god. infact, moon god is moon himself...
 
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@Joe Shearer

Is there a summary of the Mahabharat + Vedas available ? ..

I have a theory , I'd like to collect some data and try to test the theory.
 
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You got it reverse. S S Rao used that method to try to decipher Indus script. It is not speculation. However, since none of the Indus signs have required length/number of characters for successful decipher, he has made some assumptions. Majority of the disputes are in that area. So, Indus script can safely be said to be either new language or "old sanskrit" but definitively not tamil. The tamil theory came from some symbols (6 fishes, 2 blocks of 3 fishes) matching tamil phrases (aar-min) and one old bronze leaflet containing one similar symbol. So, the theory is stuck there without any progress.
Also, my another point is, you can't call Rome as english empire just because latin and english are similar (sice german, spanis etc etc also originated from latin). Similarly, he "tamil" spoken now is developed as late as 13th century CE. So, Indus civilization MIGHT have been proto-tamil-telugu-tulu-kannada-malayalum etc etc etc civilizaion but definitely not a tamil civilization...

@salman108

This is also fairly reasonable reconstruction by Thirdfront, though I don't happen to agree with him.

@Thirdfront

You got it reverse. S S Rao used that method to try to decipher Indus script. It is not speculation. However, since none of the Indus signs have required length/number of characters for successful decipher, he has made some assumptions. Majority of the disputes are in that area. So, Indus script can safely be said to be either new language or "old sanskrit" but definitively not tamil. without any progress.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-club/208899-tamil-civilization-origins-6.html#ixzz2TlmlXd2x

Speculation is when there is one person using his own methodology coming to conclusions which nobody else supports. His having made a case, based partly on evidence, and partly on assumptions, as you yourself said, does not rule out other, alternative cases, including the case for a proto-Dravidian language.

The tamil theory came from some symbols (6 fishes, 2 blocks of 3 fishes) matching tamil phrases (aar-min) and one old bronze leaflet containing one similar symbol. So, the theory is stuck there

This is not the only evidence for considering the script to be proto-Dravidian, nor was I referring to this. There is also the pattern-matching experiment.

Also, my another point is, you can't call Rome as english empire just because latin and english are similar (sice german, spanis etc etc also originated from latin). Similarly, he "tamil" spoken now is developed as late as 13th century CE. So, Indus civilization MIGHT have been proto-tamil-telugu-tulu-kannada-malayalum etc etc etc civilizaion but definitely not a tamil civilization...

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-club/208899-tamil-civilization-origins-6.html#ixzz2TlnIL5yF

Oh, quite.

Incidentally Latin and English are not at all similar; not sure where you are coming from on that one. Nor did German originate from Latin; Spanish did and so did the Romance languages, not the German language or its descendants, including Anglo-Saxon, the origin from which English was developed.

But I agree that the IVC may have been proto-Dravidian, and calling it Tamil civilisation is ruled out completely.
 
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@Joe Shearer

Is there a summary of the Mahabharat + Vedas available ? ..

I have a theory , I'd like to collect some data and try to test the theory.

Summary? Sounds ominous; apparently you may be looking for a one or two page summary. If that is so, I'll have to look around, probably for a web-page - and you know how reliable those are.

How short do you want them?
 
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I think the tamils arrived from australia or africa, which is the reason why the natives of Australia have almost same language and same facial features as Tamils or Dravidians.
They has nothing to do with the IVC, a Indo-Aryan civilization

IVC had nothing to do with Aryans..... the Aryans were nomadic savages from central Asia who destroyed IVC... its like claiming ancient Egyptian civilization to Arabs when they have nothing to do with it.
 
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Summary? Sounds ominous; apparently you may be looking for a one or two page summary. If that is so, I'll have to look around, probably for a web-page - and you know how reliable those are.

How short do you want them?

I can take out 2 - 3 hours.
I just want an accurate summary of the whole story.
 
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IVC had nothing to do with Aryans..... the Aryans were nomadic savages from central Asia who destroyed IVC... its like claiming ancient Egyptian civilization to Arabs when they have nothing to do with it.

Many theories suggest IVC died a natural death due to shifting of rivers ;).
 
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@Joe Shearer

Is there a summary of the Mahabharat + Vedas available ? ..

I have a theory , I'd like to collect some data and try to test the theory.

There are many,what is your theory?

I can take out 2 - 3 hours.
I just want an accurate summary of the whole story.

2-3 hours is good enough but since we know it fully,difficult to imagine how to summarise it.

I guess first start could be any webpage/wikipedia.

Then you can come here and ask us questions.
 
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I think the tamils arrived from australia or africa, which is the reason why the natives of Australia have almost same language and same facial features as Tamils or Dravidians.
They has nothing to do with the IVC, a Indo-Aryan civilization

Thats not true.
 
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I can take out 2 - 3 hours.
I just want an accurate summary of the whole story.

In that case, for the Mahabharata, look at the Wikipedia article. It's very terse; if, after reading it, you feel you can handle some more, try C. Rajagopalachari.

The Vedas are hymns collected in 'cycles'. No 'story'.
 
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