‘Taliban’s participation necessary for peace’

[dabong1]

I am afraid, there are many communities that form India. The community is what is predominant over religion.

For instance, Onam is celebrated in Kerala by all communities, be they Hindus, Christians or Moslems.

So your saying that hindu's do not dominate india?

 

[roadrunner]

So the one attack on one building in islamabad is the same as the army going into waziristan?
When the army launch a op on the same scale as waziristan/baluchistan then your point might be more valid.

Well, it disproves your point. The Army attack wherever there are people that wish to threaten the security of Pakistan and Pakistanis or foreigners living there - If it's people kidnapping others in Isloo or people threatening music stores in the frontier, doesn't really matter. The tribals just have more of thse radicals in their area which calls for more action there. Trying to claim there's some bias in it is laughable. There's a problem with foreign radicals crossing over into Pakistan from Afghanistan. They target Waziristan, and that's why there's more army action there. Even I know that the Americans will just flatten the place, if the PA does not go in and act on any intelligence. Why is it that you want the Americans to do the bombing, rather than the PA doing a more surgical search and arrest? Do you only have one agenda you're hell bent on, and that being the destruction of Pakistan so that you can divide it up with your caliphate brothers? The casualties of innocents the Americans would inflict would be much greater than what the PA are doing, yet you are hell bent against PA..keep sticking up Pakistani flags, it won't do you any good, your end goal is clear and it's got nothing to do with the interests of Pakistan, but your caliphate brothers

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

As usual you have no idea about what is going on other the same rehashed news that has been fed to you...open your eyes for once and take in the bigger picture,your stubborn refusal to accept that the taliban represent the vast majority of afghan and pakistani tribals will not somehow make the whole thing disappear.

The reports in the pakistani newspapers, often authored by people with last names like "mahsud" , Yusufzai etc are rehashed, the foreign news reports are rehashed - only in your glorious make believe world of a pan Islamic empire, where fairies come twittering in your ear with word from the Taliban, is the news "real". Which news report is "true" then? The Al Qaeda Times or the Taliban Herald? Pointing out one instance of "alleged" in all the reports is not going to get your beloved "enforcers of Jahiliyat" off the hook. Where is your evidence? What do you have to justify your POV other than your "opinion"? Where is the evidence of massive collateral damage that justifies attacks on Pakistani troops?

If they really represented all the Tribals and had their support, they would not have had to kill 260 tribal maliks. This is a concerted attempt to destroy the traditional power structure so that they can assert control in the ensuing power vacuum. They do not have "support", they have obedience because of fear.

The only reason the pak army is in the tribal area is becauce the US told them to.
They are fighting on americas behalf,not becauce it is in pakistans interest but american interest.

Pakistan cannot allow attacks to occur from its territory. Pakistan is responsible for what happens. There were three choices available -The Taliban cease their cross border incursions and stop coercing people, Pakistan expresses inability to do do anything and NATO extends its sphere of operations into FATA, or Pakistan goes in to ensure that cross border attacks (as well as attacks on civilians) do not occur. The Taliban refused to comply with the first, the second is not acceptable from a national security standpoint, let alone the fact that NATO tactics would result in massive civilian losses in FATA - so the only realistic option is option three.

The Pakistan Army was not following NATO's modus operandi in FATA, they entered into a peace agreement with them, why didn't the Taliban at least disarm and cease their activities in Pakistani FATA then? They abrogated the peace agreement on the flimsiest of pretexts, check posts - and started suicide bombings against them. In what world is establishing a check post equivalent to a bombing killing dozens of soldiers?

The only baseless speculation is you accusing the taliban of carrying out every crime in pakistan......any car thefts in your area?....blame the taliban..........Bird flu.......blame the taliban

Once again, these are reports penned by various Pakistani reporters, often with Pashtun names. Apparently every single News organization, and all their personnel, including those hailing from the Tribal areas, are involved in "propoganda".

Your racialist posts about "no operation in Punjab" continue to be illogical. How can tackling crime, in an area where it is rampant, be called "discrimination" by highlighting lack of action where crime is not at the same level? If there is militancy in FATA and Baluchistan, but not in Punjab, Sindh or NWFP, where do you think the efforts to combat it are going to be centered? Get a grip man!

 

[EagleEyes]

So the one attack on one building in islamabad is the same as the army going into waziristan?
When the army launch a op on the same scale as waziristan/baluchistan then your point might be more valid.

dabong,

Your point to argue on this topic is not valid. The scale of response every where will be limited to the size of the threat. Arguing that it is unfair for the Baluchistan people doesn't make sense. Lets just admit that Punjabi favoring thing is pretty much gone, and now is a history.

 

[dabong1]

Well, it disproves your point. The Army attack wherever there are people that wish to threaten the security of Pakistan and Pakistanis or foreigners living there - If it's people kidnapping others in Isloo or people threatening music stores in the frontier, doesn't really matter. The tribals just have more of thse radicals in their area which calls for more action there. Trying to claim there's some bias in it is laughable. There's a problem with foreign radicals crossing over into Pakistan from Afghanistan. They target Waziristan, and that's why there's more army action there. Even I know that the Americans will just flatten the place, if the PA does not go in and act on any intelligence. Why is it that you want the Americans to do the bombing, rather than the PA doing a more surgical search and arrest? Do you only have one agenda you're hell bent on, and that being the destruction of Pakistan so that you can divide it up with your caliphate brothers? The casualties of innocents the Americans would inflict would be much greater than what the PA are doing, yet you are hell bent against PA..keep sticking up Pakistani flags, it won't do you any good, your end goal is clear and it's got nothing to do with the interests of Pakistan, but your caliphate brothers

Is the above speech from one of mushy's spin doctors?
There is nothing new in what your saying just repeating the same old claims.

 

[dabong1]

The reports in the pakistani newspapers, often authored by people with last names like "mahsud" , Yusufzai etc are rehashed, the foreign news reports are rehashed - only in your glorious make believe world of a pan Islamic empire, where fairies come twittering in your ear with word from the Taliban, is the news "real". Which news report is "true" then? The Al Qaeda Times or the Taliban Herald? Pointing out one instance of "alleged" in all the reports is not going to get your beloved "enforcers of Jahiliyat" off the hook. Where is your evidence? What do you have to justify your POV other than your "opinion"? Where is the evidence of massive collateral damage that justifies attacks on Pakistani troops?!

As your confused telling by your name "AgNoStIc MuSliM" is that like being a god fearing atheist?
The Al Qaeda Times and the Taliban Herald did not report that iraq had WMD like all the western/muslim media...thats how good they are at reporting.
The liberal army of Jahiliyat that you so love to follow will lead to the break up of pakistan.
I would not expect an AgNoStIc like yourself to want an islamic ethos in pakistan.
People in the muslim worlds want a return to a pan islamic empire (united states of islam) you with your distaste of all mention of muslim or islam when it come to pakistan just shows your lack of knowlege/faith in islam.
Who said the taliban wanted a pan islamic empire with themself in charge....must have been those fairies you where talking to.

Pakistan cannot allow attacks to occur from its territory. Pakistan is responsible for what happens. There were three choices available -The Taliban cease their cross border incursions and stop coercing people, Pakistan expresses inability to do do anything and NATO extends its sphere of operations into FATA, or Pakistan goes in to ensure that cross border attacks (as well as attacks on civilians) do not occur. The Taliban refused to comply with the first, the second is not acceptable from a national security standpoint, let alone the fact that NATO tactics would result in massive civilian losses in FATA - so the only realistic option is option three.!

Off course put the onus on pakistan after your failure in afghanistan.
The options avalible is simple.....let nato secure the afghan border

The Pakistan Army was not following NATO's modus operandi in FATA, they entered into a peace agreement with them, why didn't the Taliban at least disarm and cease their activities in Pakistani FATA then? They abrogated the peace agreement on the flimsiest of pretexts, check posts - and started suicide bombings against them. In what world is establishing a check post equivalent to a bombing killing dozens of soldiers?!

Yet again only reading the story from one side....why did the pak army say they would be no checkpoints and then started putting up checkpoint.
The only person who "abrogated the peace agreement" was mushy under US pressure.

Once again, these are reports penned by various Pakistani reporters, often with Pashtun names. Apparently every single News organization, and all their personnel, including those hailing from the Tribal areas, are involved in "propoganda". ?!

Please do tell us which news agency is reporting from the tribal area considering no media is allowed there by the pak army.

Your racialist posts about "no operation in Punjab" continue to be illogical. How can tackling crime, in an area where it is rampant, be called "discrimination" by highlighting lack of action where crime is not at the same level? If there is militancy in FATA and Baluchistan, but not in Punjab, Sindh or NWFP, where do you think the efforts to combat it are going to be centered? Get a grip man!

Go and read my post again and dont twist to suit your own logic,what i said was i can not see the army attacking punjab the same way its attacked NWFP....like using helicopter gunships in islamabad...the police led the operation at the start with the army coming in at the end.
All major arrest of al qaeda where in punjabi cities,going of that logic will attacking these cities be justified by the pak army to flush out the rest...of course at the behest of the US.
What you all fail to take into account here is that all these operations are taking place at US request and for pakistan security.
How many soldiers where getting killed before the US forced mushy to send in the army.
Wake up and open those eyes..

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

This reminds me of that woman that the taliban killed in the stadium,made world headlines...those barbaric taliban ,how evil they are,look at the way they killed that poor woman.
Only later did we find out that she killed her husband and i think her step daughter also while they where asleep.

The woman should have been punished in a civilised way and not beheaded (?) in a public stadium, the gory and barbaric sight cheered by mindless spectators!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

As your confused telling by your name "AgNoStIc MuSliM" is that like being a god fearing atheist?
The Al Qaeda Times and the Taliban Herald did not report that iraq had WMD like all the western/muslim media...thats how good they are at reporting.

Once again, where is your evidence rebutting all these Pakistani news reports penned by authors with Pashtun names? If you cannot refute them then say so.

The liberal army of Jahiliyat that you so love to follow will lead to the break up of pakistan.
I would not expect an AgNoStIc like yourself to want an islamic ethos in pakistan.

Of course, and that is evident from the fact that Muslim countries are the leaders of the world in science, education, economy and the arts... Oh wait a second, thats the liberal West!

Lets see which Muslims countries come close to them. Turkey - secular system, Malaysia - Liberal society (and most of the wealth in the hands of the "liberal" ethnic Chinese population), UAE - Liberal society. You are correct, I don't wish to see the type of medieval ethos you show a preference for in Pakistan.

People in the muslim worlds want a return to a pan islamic empire (united states of islam) you with your distaste of all mention of muslim or islam when it come to pakistan just shows your lack of knowlege/faith in islam.

If the Muslim countries can come up with a plan to form a united block, then by all means go ahead. But you will be dreaming about that for a long time considering that people like the Taliban can barely tolerate the Shia or Ismailis, and Saudi Arabia and Iran continue to detest each other, with a significant number of Saudis (in the words of some Saudis) "hating Iran and the Shia". Yeah good luck with that.

Who said the taliban wanted a pan islamic empire with themself in charge....must have been those fairies you where talking to.

I said you wanted one.

Off course put the onus on pakistan after your failure in afghanistan.
The options avalible is simple.....let nato secure the afghan border

Yet again only reading the story from one side....why did the pak army say they would be no checkpoints and then started putting up checkpoint.
The only person who "abrogated the peace agreement" was mushy under US pressure.

Why is this "my failure"? Lets not play games here, the terrain does not allow for a "sealing of the border". What will happen is that NATO will pursue the militants and extend its operations into FATA. You are living in a fools world if you think that Pakistan can just express helplessness about controlling the movement of militants, and then not expect NATO to do the job. A person cannot allow a criminal gang to operate from his house, provide them shelter, and then deny law enforcement access to them, while refusing to stop their activities.

And I repeat my question, by what standard is bombing and killing dozens of troops equivalent to setting up a check point? They could have asked for negotiations once again through the Jirga, instead they declared war. How do you justify the murder of troops just because a "check point" was setup? And it can be argued that the peace agreement was broken by them, becasue they did not cease harboring "foreignors" or stop the movement of militants into Afghanistan. Surely you remember the operation in South Waziristan, conducted by the Tribals against foreigners, that Baitullah was so angry about. That proved that they had not been adhering to the agreement. So the deal was broken by the militants long before the Army decided to set up check points, and they broke it only days after the most recent renewal of the agreement by kidnapping 240 soldiers.

Please do tell us which news agency is reporting from the tribal area considering no media is allowed there by the pak army.

Games once again. Why couldn't the authors be using tribal sources, friends, relatives, connections - there are telephones in those areas did you know? The initial reports about the abduction of the troops, when the government denied knowledge, was reported in these same newspapers, by the very same authors, so your argument about the lack of media access preventing the dissemination of accurate accounts is not a valid one at all.

But all this goes back to what you have been avoiding like the plague - Where is your evidence that the media is deliberately involved in propoganda? Where is your evidence to refute the accounts in those reports?

Go and read my post again and dont twist to suit your own logic,what i said was i can not see the army attacking punjab the same way its attacked NWFP....like using helicopter gunships in islamabad...the police led the operation at the start with the army coming in at the end.

I am not the only one who read your posts to imply ethnic discrimination. And it could be argued that in Waziristan the political agents and Tribal maliks tried to stop the Taliban initially. But what do you expect when 260 Tribal Maliks are killed. Of course the Army is going to come in when the traditional forces cannot do the job. They did it at the LM and they did it in Waziristan. So that argument is flawed.

And how do you use Helicopter Gunships inside a building? Use a little bit of sense please. An operation inside a building is completely different from an operation in open mountainous terrain, with limited human settlements that could result in collateral damage from the use of force from Gunships etc.

All major arrest of al qaeda where in punjabi cities,going of that logic will attacking these cities be justified by the pak army to flush out the rest...of course at the behest of the US.

Say what?

What you all fail to take into account here is that all these operations are taking place at US request and for pakistan security.
How many soldiers where getting killed before the US forced mushy to send in the army.
Wake up and open those eyes..

So you would prefer that NATO extend its operations into FATA? How is that in Pakistan's or the Tribals interest?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

So your saying that hindu's do not dominate india?

Even if I were to say so, you would not understand.

You don't even understand barbarism from civilised manner.

You applaud the barbaric manner in which the woman was beheaded in the stadium in Afghanistan as if it was correct.

If it were correct, then why is it not being done in Pakistan? Because, Pakistan is a civilised country!

But by your logic, I am sure you will contend that it is not an Islamic country!

Also, observe your logic to what you think is rebuttal to Agnostic Muslim's.

You show signs of indoctrination and one cannot debate with a hard core adherent of one's view who is not prepared to even consider someone's else opinion and instead with blinkers on, go hammer and tongs.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Regarding the use of alleged in that report I posted. It was breaking news at the time. Here is the more "mature" account in today's Dawn.

60 shops destroyed in Mingora



By Hameedullah Khan


SWAT, Sept 7: An early morning explosion on Friday rocked two markets in Mingora, destroying 60 shops of video games, CDs and cosmetics, officials and witnesses said.

The explosion ripped through the Ali Plaza around 4.30 am, damaging 20 shops on the first floor and 20 on the ground floor. Another 10 shops of cosmetics and two hair-cutting saloons were destroyed in an adjacent market.

The powerful explosion caused cracks in the buildings. Witnesses saw doors and window-fames flying in the air.

A fire which engulfed the buildings after the bomb blast, reduced to ashes goods worth millions of rupees.

Sources said the owners of the markets and shopkeepers had received warnings from local Taliban militants, asking them to close what they called their illegal and un-Islamic business or be ready for blasts. They said a watchman had stopped coming to work after the militants’ warnings.

District Police Officer Mohammad Iqbal Khan confirmed that leaflets had been found pasted on walls and shops in the markets, warning the shopkeepers that the place would be blown up if the businesses were not closed.

Notice the lack of "alleged" this time.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Dabong,

If you would, read my last post in the Waziristan thread.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...iristan-break-pakistans-back-9.html#post97973

While I do detest the ideology and system propagated by the Taliban, Saudis and Iranians, I am also cognizant that these groups need to be given an opportunity to have their voice heard, and people need to be given the opportunity to choose that voice to represent them. But for this to be a fair process, the element of fear needs to be taken out, and that will not happen as long as gun toting wannabe Mullahs scare people into "supporting" them. They need to lay down their arms and participate in the setting up of a representative system in FATA, that is the only way the region can move forward. If the people decide to choose the Taliban in a free and fair vote, all power to them, provided that the people also have the option to kick them out next time around.

 

[dabong1]

Dabong,

If you would, read my last post in the Waziristan thread.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...iristan-break-pakistans-back-9.html#post97973

While I do detest the ideology and system propagated by the Taliban, Saudis and Iranians, I am also cognizant that these groups need to be given an opportunity to have their voice heard, and people need to be given the opportunity to choose that voice to represent them. But for this to be a fair process, the element of fear needs to be taken out, and that will not happen as long as gun toting wannabe Mullahs scare people into "supporting" them. They need to lay down their arms and participate in the setting up of a representative system in FATA, that is the only way the region can move forward. If the people decide to choose the Taliban in a free and fair vote, all power to them, provided that the people also have the option to kick them out next time around.

Okay fair enough,i have your waziristan post and i mostly agree with what you have to say.
Where we differ is how to deal with the issue,you as far as i can see want a military solution to the FATA issue while i do not.
I do not think the life of a single pakistan soldier is worth wasting fighting a war for the US against our own.
Who bought the MMA into power in these area's?
I do not rate mushy as leader...below average in my opinion compared to other leaders,as a soldier he is great but as a general/president he is useless going of his track record.
I have no problem with targeted assisination of trouble making taliban in pakistan,let us have an intelligence based counter insurgency based on facts and not a list handed down us by the US of people it knows once killed by pak army will inflame the sutition even more.
The US has never been a friend of pakistan and never will.
The majority of attacks against NATO forces is in helmand province,how is that linked to crossing the border between FATA and afghanistan.
Should they not try sealing the border near quetta first?
Pakistan wants to mine the border to stop the accusations of cross border movement but the afghan govt with US backing does not want to allow this...why?
The reason i support the taliban is only becauce i think it is in pakistan's long term interest.
Where we better off with the taliban in charge of afghanistan or the NA which now holds power.

 

[dabong1]

The woman should have been punished in a civilised way and not beheaded (?) in a public stadium, the gory and barbaric sight cheered by mindless spectators!

You mean punished in a "civilised way" like electocuting her to death or injecting her with a poision that can not even be used to put down a dog becauce it cauces to much suffering.
By the way she was shot not beheaded....and nobody was cheering.

 

[roadrunner]

Is the above speech from one of mushy's spin doctors?
There is nothing new in what your saying just repeating the same old claims.

Don't avoid the questions. I'd like to hear your answer to the question in bold in fact. Let me hear your logic. If there's a sembalance of logic in what you say, I will convert myself into a rabid anti Musharraf supporter.If you can't answer it, then carry on posting pointless comments in relation to this post.

Well, it disproves your point. The Army attack wherever there are people that wish to threaten the security of Pakistan and Pakistanis or foreigners living there - If it's people kidnapping others in Isloo or people threatening music stores in the frontier, doesn't really matter. The tribals just have more of thse radicals in their area which calls for more action there. Trying to claim there's some bias in it is laughable. There's a problem with foreign radicals crossing over into Pakistan from Afghanistan. They target Waziristan, and that's why there's more army action there. Even I know that the Americans will just flatten the place, if the PA does not go in and act on any intelligence. Why is it that you want the Americans to do the bombing, rather than the PA doing a more surgical search and arrest? Do you only have one agenda you're hell bent on, and that being the destruction of Pakistan so that you can divide it up with your caliphate brothers? The casualties of innocents the Americans would inflict would be much greater than what the PA are doing, yet you are hell bent against PA..keep sticking up Pakistani flags, it won't do you any good, your end goal is clear and it's got nothing to do with the interests of Pakistan, but your caliphate brothers

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

You mean punished in a "civilised way" like electocuting her to death or injecting her with a poision that can not even be used to put down a dog becauce it cauces to much suffering.
By the way she was shot not beheaded....and nobody was cheering.

Wie Sie Wollen!

As you wish!

After all, you must have been there since you seem to know more than the world or anyone else here on any subject!

You are the last word - Z

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!