‘Taliban’s participation necessary for peace’

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

But for some strange reason we can bomb the taliban with NATO and then expect the taliban to have a peaceful dialogue with us...

I love the way you did not answer the point you made about the taliban killing civilians and comparing it to the number of civilians NATO/US/AFGHAN ARMY has killed.....
Wow a few people in swat are saying do not listen music and do not shave and its a takeover of pakistan by the taliban somehow......the only one coming up with conspiracy theories is yourself.

My comments were related to the situation in Pakistan, not Afghanistan. When I speak of "society failing in its obligations", I am referring to Pakistan, so I see no reason to answer your query about the death count of NATO vs Taliban. The death count of civilians killed in Pakistan, in the various bombings whose responsibility these terrorists have accepted, is far higher than any collateral damage the Pakistani forces have inflicted.

With respect to dialog, there was an entire period of calm from the Pakistani Army side when the "sara rogha agreement" was in place. What happened to the idea of the Taliban giving up arms and entering dialog then? Instead we had suicide bombings and ambushes against the Pakistan Army after the Lal Masjid incident.

 

[roadrunner]

You said to name a shia commander in the taliban.......abdul ali mazari of Hizb-i Wahdat.
Yeah we all love to accuse the taliban of all sorts of crimes but when it has to be backed up with hard facts it always fizzles out .
Do not forget it was the shia's that in May 1997 captured 3,000 Taliban soldiers which where summarily executed in and around Mazar-i Sharif by shia/hazara forces,the taliban only started killing the hazaras/shia in revenge when they took power after this massacre.

You make a statement and don't back it up with fact yourself! Where is your link that Abdul Ali Masari was a Taliban commander?

Mazari who had formed an alliance with Gulbuddin Hekmatyar and Dostum against the Rabbani government, began to negotiate with the Taliban as soon as Hekmatyar retreated from Kabul. He tried hard to avoid military confrontation with the Taliban, and hoped that the war between the Taliban and the Rabbani government would provide him with an opportunity for survival. Soon, Mazari invited the Taliban to occupy the frontline positions held by his fighters. Things turned sour when the Taliban started to disarm Mazari's men as soon they reached West Kabul. This resulted in clashes between the Taliban and followers of Mazari. Exploiting the situation, Rabbani's forces attacked and defeated both Wahdat and the Taliban.

Mazari was captured by the Taliban on March 12, and was taken to Charasyab, the Taliban base 25 kilometers south of Kabul. A Western journalist photographed Mazari with tied hands and feet. On March 13 1995, Mazari along with nine of his followers were murdered by the Taliban. The Taliban said Mazari and nine other leaders of his party were being taken to Kandahar on board a helicopter when he snatched one of his captor's guns, and wounded the pilot of the helicopter. The plane made an emergency landing near Ghazni and in the gunbattle which followed, Mazari, nine other leaders of Wahdat, and six Taliban guards were killed. The Taliban's version of Mazari's death was disputed by the leaders of Wahdat. They accused Mullah Borjan, the commander of the Taliban in Charasyab, of torturing and killing Mazari. The Taliban's behavior towards Mazari was shaped by ethnic hatred and religious prejudiceAfghanistan Online: Biography (Abdul Ali Mazari)

Where are your links to say he was a Taliban commander?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Wow a few people in swat are saying do not listen music and do not shave and its a takeover of pakistan by the taliban somehow......the only one coming up with conspiracy theories is yourself.

A "few" people have been threatening to bomb those establishments and locations, not just "saying", and have already bombed such businesses in various parts of the Tribal areas (your selective reading "skills" are probably responsible for your state of denial here). These "few" people are in the news every day, threatening to bomb this or force that if it is in violation of their medieval code.

Here are some more links:
IFEX ::
IFEX ::
IFEX ::

So lets get off the "West is conspiring against Muslims" bandwagon. These people are intolerant, bigots spreading terror in the name of Islam. There is nothing Western influencing their activities. This is not jihad, or iman - this is cowardice and jahiliyat.

 

[dabong1]

You see the difference between the Taliban and the western armies is that when Nato bombs kill innocents you will always see an apology afterwards and often on the ground talks are held with members of the deceased family's where money is given.

When the Taliban kill innocents you rarely hear of such an apology, instead you often see justifications for it.

I mean these people have kidnapped and murdered aid workers, let children behead men, etc.

Honestly m8, look at reality and take off those pro caliphate glasses.

I am sure if the taliban had control of the tv networks and newspapers there apologies would get the same coverage as the NATO/US apology,money is given by the taliban to people that have been killed by them in crossfire,it's just that it not reported the same way....the taliban give "blood money" while the western nations give "compensation".

Can we not use the same excuse as US/NATO do when there soilders commit crimes against the civilian population......its just a few bad apples.

Bro being mentally conditioned to accept anything that the western media spews is the problem with muslims who are anti taliban and can not see further then CCN news and FOX.

 

[dabong1]

You make a statement and don't back it up with fact yourself! Where is your link that Abdul Ali Masari was a Taliban commander?

Mazari who had formed an alliance with Gulbuddin Hekmatyar and Dostum against the Rabbani government, began to negotiate with the Taliban as soon as Hekmatyar retreated from Kabul. He tried hard to avoid military confrontation with the Taliban, and hoped that the war between the Taliban and the Rabbani government would provide him with an opportunity for survival. Soon, Mazari invited the Taliban to occupy the frontline positions held by his fighters. Things turned sour when the Taliban started to disarm Mazari's men as soon they reached West Kabul. This resulted in clashes between the Taliban and followers of Mazari. Exploiting the situation, Rabbani's forces attacked and defeated both Wahdat and the Taliban.

Mazari was captured by the Taliban on March 12, and was taken to Charasyab, the Taliban base 25 kilometers south of Kabul. A Western journalist photographed Mazari with tied hands and feet. On March 13 1995, Mazari along with nine of his followers were murdered by the Taliban. The Taliban said Mazari and nine other leaders of his party were being taken to Kandahar on board a helicopter when he snatched one of his captor's guns, and wounded the pilot of the helicopter. The plane made an emergency landing near Ghazni and in the gunbattle which followed, Mazari, nine other leaders of Wahdat, and six Taliban guards were killed. The Taliban's version of Mazari's death was disputed by the leaders of Wahdat. They accused Mullah Borjan, the commander of the Taliban in Charasyab, of torturing and killing Mazari. The Taliban's behavior towards Mazari was shaped by ethnic hatred and religious prejudiceAfghanistan Online: Biography (Abdul Ali Mazari)

Where are your links to say he was a Taliban commander?

Can you not need read?....you said it yourself "Mazari invited the Taliban to occupy the frontline positions held by his fighters."
Thats when he was a taliban commander.....

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Who would want to deal with these people? I don't think any constituted govt would, be it Pakistan or Afghanistan.

Gory video shows boy beheading hostage soldier -DAWN - Top Stories; August 28, 2007

 

[roadrunner]

Can you not need read?....you said it yourself "Mazari invited the Taliban to occupy the frontline positions held by his fighters."
Thats when he was a taliban commander.....

dude, this is mosquito logic. Your initial point was that the Taliban were an all inclusive good bunch of guys who were tolerant and non bigoted. You even tried to claim Hazaras were welcomed into its ranks as fighters! You still seem to! Just so you understand, here it is again. The alliance between Mazari and the Taliban was an alliance out of mutual interests to defeat the Tajiks in Kabul. The Taliban agreed to his face, and then stabbed him in the back as soon as they got their fighters in the ranks of the Hazaras. How on earth can you call this a commander of the Taliban???? This is more like an enemy of the Taliban, that has been fooled by the Taliban..but never a commander of the Taliban - what did he command?? He was stabbed in the back according to the article.

"Soon, Mazari invited the Taliban to occupy the frontline positions held by his fighters. Things turned sour when the Taliban started to disarm Mazari's men as soon they reached West Kabul."

Name me a proper commander of the Taliban that was a Hazara - not some gullible Hazara who even was killed by the Taliban he was supposed to have commanded.

 

[dabong1]

A "few" people have been threatening to bomb those establishments and locations, not just "saying", and have already bombed such businesses in various parts of the Tribal areas (your selective reading "skills" are probably responsible for your state of denial here). These "few" people are in the news every day, threatening to bomb this or force that if it is in violation of their medieval code..

You say it yourself "A few people" are involved in threatening to bomb,dont "blow it" out of proportion.
"selective reading skills".........are we talking about me or you?

So lets get off the "West is conspiring against Muslims" bandwagon. These people are intolerant, bigots spreading terror in the name of Islam. There is nothing Western influencing their activities. This is not jihad, or iman - this is cowardice and jahiliyat.

Did not realize that fighting for your country was "cowardice and jahiliyat"

 

[dabong1]

dude, this is mosquito logic. Your initial point was that the Taliban were an all inclusive good bunch of guys who were tolerant and non bigoted. You even tried to claim Hazaras were welcomed into its ranks as fighters! You still seem to! Just so you understand, here it is again. The alliance between Mazari and the Taliban was an alliance out of mutual interests to defeat the Tajiks in Kabul. The Taliban agreed to his face, and then stabbed him in the back as soon as they got their fighters in the ranks of the Hazaras. How on earth can you call this a commander of the Taliban???? This is more like an enemy of the Taliban, that has been fooled by the Taliban..but never a commander of the Taliban - what did he command?? He was stabbed in the back according to the article.

"Soon, Mazari invited the Taliban to occupy the frontline positions held by his fighters. Things turned sour when the Taliban started to disarm Mazari's men as soon they reached West Kabul."

Name me a proper commander of the Taliban that was a Hazara - not some gullible Hazara who even was killed by the Taliban he was supposed to have commanded.

Most of Hazarajat, which had been governed by various factions of the Shia party Hizb-i Wahdat since 1989, fell to the Taliban in September 1998 after a crippling year-long blockade. Despite the apprehensions of many local residents, the transition involved far fewer civilian casualties than had been the case in Mazar-i Sharif. Some observers attributed this to an alliance that was forged with the Taliban by Hujjat-al-Islam Sayyid Mohammad Akbari, a Hizb-i Wahdat faction leader, shortly after the Taliban seized Bamiyan, the major city in Hazarajat and the capital of a district and province of the same name. The Taliban subsequently withdrew most non-local forces from several districts of Hazarajat, leaving them under the nominal control of Akbari appointees or other Shia commanders. Bamiyan, Yakaolang, and a few other districts were directly administered by the Taliban.

Is that good enough?.....or do have to find a pic of mullah omar and a shia commander holding hands.

 

[roadrunner]

Most of Hazarajat, which had been governed by various factions of the Shia party Hizb-i Wahdat since 1989, fell to the Taliban in September 1998 after a crippling year-long blockade. Despite the apprehensions of many local residents, the transition involved far fewer civilian casualties than had been the case in Mazar-i Sharif. Some observers attributed this to an alliance that was forged with the Taliban by Hujjat-al-Islam Sayyid Mohammad Akbari, a Hizb-i Wahdat faction leader, shortly after the Taliban seized Bamiyan, the major city in Hazarajat and the capital of a district and province of the same name. The Taliban subsequently withdrew most non-local forces from several districts of Hazarajat, leaving them under the nominal control of Akbari appointees or other Shia commanders. Bamiyan, Yakaolang, and a few other districts were directly administered by the Taliban.

Is that good enough?.....or do have to find a pic of mullah omar and a shia commander holding hands.

Important word here is nominal control. This would mean the Shia commanders had control of the area, not the Taliban, but the Taliban could come at any time they wanted and enforce whatever they wanted. A maharajah feudal system of rule. These Shia commanders you're talking about were not part of the Taliban..they were just useful pawns for the Taliban to rule a particular area in a politically correct style.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You say it yourself "A few people" are involved in threatening to bomb,dont "blow it" out of proportion.
"selective reading skills".........are we talking about me or you?



Did not realize that fighting for your country was "cowardice and jahiliyat"

Please dispense with the antics. The quotation marks around few (they look like this if you don't know " ") were put there for a reason. How many more links detaining Taliban activity do you want? There has been attack after attack, don't tell me RAW, Mossad or the CIA actually have an interest in shutting down music stores and driving barbers out of business. Even the attacks against the troops, right after the LM episode, had the Taliban claiming responsibility through their "official spokesperson". You have not been able to refute one single story presented, you have not even tried to offer an analysis that could explain away these attacks. All you have done is indulge in shenanigans and circular logic.

In case you didn't know, their country is Pakistan. So far I only see the Pakistan army fighting for its country. The people you are intent on defending, seem pretty much hell bent upon destroying it.

 

[Scorpius]

I am sure if the taliban had control of the tv networks and newspapers there apologies would get the same coverage as the NATO/US apology,money is given by the taliban to people that have been killed by them in crossfire,it's just that it not reported the same way....the taliban give "blood money" while the western nations give "compensation".

Can we not use the same excuse as US/NATO do when there soldiers commit crimes against the civilian population......its just a few bad apples.

Bro being mentally conditioned to accept anything that the western media spews is the problem with muslims who are anti taliban and can not see further then CCN news and FOX.

I'm not talking about crossfire or the rare occasion when the taliban show some decency. It is their overall behaviour, one or two instances of kindness does not change the fact that they have kidnapped innocents, murdered innocents, carried out suicide bombings, beheadings, etc.

This is undeniable, it's not just western nations who publish the stories it's muslim nations who have a free press. People who are allied to the taliban or give them moral support publish these stories on their websites and they just like the taliban back up their actions with Islamic justification.

The thing with the Nato forces is that individual soldiers have no religious ideology they must adhere to, they are not told this is how you must believe. When these soldiers commit crimes they are almost always disciplined and sometimes this results in court action. Commiting war crimes if your a nato soldier has no benefit nor is it seen as some kind of "rite" that they must conduct in order to be accepted.


It's totally different when you come to the taliban, they are not a professional army and are not as disciplined as nato forces. They are bound together by a common ideology and often this takes precedent in deciding what actions this will take, their ideology is a twisted form of Islamic ideology as we all know.

As for the western media, yes of course they are biased. This is obvious, they are western and will be more sympathetic to the death of western soldiers or civilians then foreigners. And of course there is anti muslim bias in fox or sky news, as such I dont watch them. But the fact is that stories reported by western media organisations are the same as stories reported by al jazeera, pakistan's times, etc. Sometimes they may have a slightly anti islamic message but the stories are not made up.

The taliban are part of a worldwide problem, i.e. Islamic extremism and terrorism. As such they will never be my allies.

 

[dabong1]

Important word here is nominal control. This would mean the Shia commanders had control of the area, not the Taliban, but the Taliban could come at any time they wanted and enforce whatever they wanted. A maharajah feudal system of rule. These Shia commanders you're talking about were not part of the Taliban..they were just useful pawns for the Taliban to rule a particular area in a politically correct style.

You where very sure off yourself that the taliban had no shia commanders,now you accept that they had shia commanders.
Wrap it up in silly phrase like "maharajah feudal system of rule" but no matter which way you say it the taliban had shia commanders.
Your point from the start was that the taliban had no shia commanders,at least that has been put to rest.
I cant find the link but i am sure did tehran not build a hospital for the taliban in kabul,this was after the taliban arrested the commander that killed the iraninan diplomats in kabul and the standoff between the iraninan army and taliban was sorted out.

 

[dabong1]

Please dispense with the antics. The quotation marks around few (they look like this if you don't know " ") were put there for a reason. How many more links detaining Taliban activity do you want? There has been attack after attack, don't tell me RAW, Mossad or the CIA actually have an interest in shutting down music stores and driving barbers out of business. Even the attacks against the troops, right after the LM episode, had the Taliban claiming responsibility through their "official spokesperson". You have not been able to refute one single story presented, you have not even tried to offer an analysis that could explain away these attacks. All you have done is indulge in shenanigans and circular logic.

In case you didn't know, their country is Pakistan. So far I only see the Pakistan army fighting for its country. The people you are intent on defending, seem pretty much hell bent upon destroying it.

You can not even see how biased you are,all you show me is a few cases of taliban doing stupid stuff and not a single link to US/NATO crimes.
You want the taliban to bend over to mushy/bush....sorry mate dont think so.
The last i read the pakistan army was deserting there post and being captured by the taliban with out firing a single shot.

The surrender of an estimated 280 soldiers, including a colonel and nine other officers, on 30 August in South Waziristan to just a few score Taleban fighters who blocked their supply convoy on the road to the main town of Wana.
The Pakistani Taleban, belonging to the group led by Baitullah Mahsud, persuaded the troops to surrender without firing a single shot. The group comprised more than a dozen mid-ranking officers, including a colonel.
Many of the army and Frontier Corp personnel serving in Fata are Pashtuns, the ethnic group that lives on both sides of the border and from which the Taleban in both countries originate. Pakistani Pashtun soldiers are now loathe to fire upon their fellow Pashtuns.
BBC NEWS | World | South Asia | Pakistan crisis 'hits army morale'

Me with no military knowledge could have told you that this is what would happin if you got the pakistani army to attack there own people.
I wonder how keen the punjabi officers would be if mushy told them to attack punjab.

Try looking at the bigger picture where the zionist what to break up pakistan,and what a better way then a civil war.
An isreali general in the 1980's said that they would breakup iraq into three states,a kurdish,sunni arab and shia arab sections,is that not what has happened?
Try looking up the the new map for a greater middle east published by an american general where they include pakistan being broken up with the NWFP going to afghanistan and baluchistan/sind going to a new country called greater baluchistan which takes in parts of iran.

The map is at the bottom the page if you check the site below
The War on Lebanon and the Battle for Oil



And please save us from the accusation of being called a conspiracy theoriest....that what they said the during the 80/90 to people that said iraq would be split into three.

 

[dabong1]

I'm not talking about crossfire or the rare occasion when the taliban show some decency. It is their overall behaviour, one or two instances of kindness does not change the fact that they have kidnapped innocents, murdered innocents, carried out suicide bombings, beheadings, etc..

The taliban can not even get close to the atrocities that NATO/US forces have commited on the poor afghans,i know its hard for you to grasp but the suicide bombings have been carried out on military and govt officials while trying to minimize civilian casualty's.They have even aborted missions where there was a chance of high civilian casualtys..as reported by dispatches channel 4 of the UK.
Meeting The Taleban. Part 1 of 5.

This is undeniable, it's not just western nations who publish the stories it's muslim nations who have a free press. People who are allied to the taliban or give them moral support publish these stories on their websites and they just like the taliban back up their actions with Islamic justification. ..

Mmmm the so called muslim free press get there stories from associated press AP and reuters which are both western news gathering agencies.
All there doing is retelling western bullsh*t to the muslim nations.

The thing with the Nato forces is that individual soldiers have no religious ideology they must adhere to, they are not told this is how you must believe. When these soldiers commit crimes they are almost always disciplined and sometimes this results in court action. Commiting war crimes if your a nato soldier has no benefit nor is it seen as some kind of "rite" that they must conduct in order to be accepted...

You really are blinked in you vision if you think that NATO soldiers have no religious ideology,why do they have mass every sunday on there bases.
Have you heard of bagram,abu ghraib and guantanamo?

It's totally different when you come to the taliban, they are not a professional army and are not as disciplined as nato forces. They are bound together by a common ideology and often this takes precedent in deciding what actions this will take, their ideology is a twisted form of Islamic ideology as we all know..

Yeah okay whatever

As for the western media, yes of course they are biased. This is obvious, they are western and will be more sympathetic to the death of western soldiers or civilians then foreigners. And of course there is anti muslim bias in fox or sky news, as such I dont watch them. But the fact is that stories reported by western media organisations are the same as stories reported by al jazeera, pakistan's times, etc. Sometimes they may have a slightly anti islamic message but the stories are not made up.

The taliban are part of a worldwide problem, i.e. Islamic extremism and terrorism. As such they will never be my allies.

The world wide problem is NATO/US aggression and there pathetic brainwashed muslim supporters.