‘Taliban’s participation necessary for peace’

[roadrunner]

You where very sure off yourself that the taliban had no shia commanders,now you accept that they had shia commanders.
Wrap it up in silly phrase like "maharajah feudal system of rule" but no matter which way you say it the taliban had shia commanders.
Your point from the start was that the taliban had no shia commanders,at least that has been put to rest.
I cant find the link but i am sure did tehran not build a hospital for the taliban in kabul,this was after the taliban arrested the commander that killed the iraninan diplomats in kabul and the standoff between the iraninan army and taliban was sorted out.

Well, I still dont accept the Taliban as some religiously tolerant sect like you're trying to make out. You claim they had commanders of all Afghan ethnic groups. You base this on examples of one Hazara commander who got disarmed by the Taliban after making a deal with them, and then got thrown out of an airplane by the Taliban. Then you quote from HRW about the "Shi'ite Taliban commanders" having nominal control of Hazarajat after having been starved of supplies for a full year. Even your own article says these "shi'ite maharajahs had no control over their territory. What sort of commanders are these then? Do they command anything in the territory? Do you even see the lack of anything concrete in your claims?

Afghan extreme Shi'ite ideology and Taliban ideology were completely different. You're quoting 1 example of goodwill, or one or two Shi'ite maharajahs who were allied with the Taliban perhaps through force or bribery. The reality is that the two could not co-exist in that country because both were extreme. That's why there were massacres and continue to be of them. Supporting one or the other is just supporting further massacres.

 

[roadrunner]

I wonder how keen the punjabi officers would be if mushy told them to attack punjab..

The world wide problem is NATO/US aggression and there pathetic brainwashed muslim supporters.

Dude, why do you stick up Pakistan flags, when you would like to see it gone as part of some all conquering, all massacring caliphate?

 

[Scorpius]

The taliban can not even get close to the atrocities that NATO/US forces have commited on the poor afghans,i know its hard for you to grasp but the suicide bombings have been carried out on military and govt officials while trying to minimize civilian casualty's.They have even aborted missions where there was a chance of high civilian casualtys..as reported by dispatches channel 4 of the UK.
Meeting The Taleban. Part 1 of 5.

Some attacks have against been military and the government, however many have been not. I can cite examples if you wish. You see this is the difference between me and you, I admit that some suicide attacks have been against 'valid' targets (in the rules of warfare) as this is true. However you seem unwilling to accept that the taliban have targeted civilians on purpose, you ignore this totally.

The actions of NATO that have hurt the Afghan populace are quite severe however the key difference here is again the intention. It's never NATO's intention to harm innocent Afghans as this endangers their objective in Afghanistan. Whereas the taliban have intended to hurt civilians. For me this makes the taliban morally worser then NATO especially when you consider that most of the Taliban are of the same or very similar ethnicity/religion as their victims.

Mmmm the so called muslim free press get there stories from associated press AP and reuters which are both western news gathering agencies.
All there doing is retelling western bullsh*t to the muslim nations.

So you believe that muslim media would not check their facts and would willingly on purpose put out information that harms other muslims? I think this is just another excuse on your part, you cannot accept reality.

You really are blinked in you vision if you think that NATO soldiers have no religious ideology,why do they have mass every sunday on there bases.
Have you heard of bagram,abu ghraib and guantanamo?

The key point of what I said is that they don't have to adhere to any religious ideology, NATO does not tell them they must believe in jesus. If they do believe then it's of their own free will and as long as it does not harm anyone they are free to believe in what they want. This is in stark contrast to the taliban. Torture is a method used in warfare to extract information from the enemy, it is of course awful but so is the business of war. Again this is not commited against random civilians but enemy soldiers. Also in stark contrast to the taliban..

 

[Scorpius]

Dude, why do you stick up Pakistan flags, when you would like to see it gone as part of some all conquering, all massacring caliphate?

I believe his loyalty is to his religious ideology (caliphate) rather then a single nation, so yes I wonder why he does it.

 

[dabong1]

Well, I still dont accept the Taliban as some religiously tolerant sect like you're trying to make out. You claim they had commanders of all Afghan ethnic groups. You base this on examples of one Hazara commander who got disarmed by the Taliban after making a deal with them, and then got thrown out of an airplane by the Taliban. Then you quote from HRW about the "Shi'ite Taliban commanders" having nominal control of Hazarajat after having been starved of supplies for a full year. Even your own article says these "shi'ite maharajahs had no control over their territory. What sort of commanders are these then? Do they command anything in the territory? Do you even see the lack of anything concrete in your claims?

Afghan extreme Shi'ite ideology and Taliban ideology were completely different. You're quoting 1 example of goodwill, or one or two Shi'ite maharajahs who were allied with the Taliban perhaps through force or bribery. The reality is that the two could not co-exist in that country because both were extreme. That's why there were massacres and continue to be of them. Supporting one or the other is just supporting further massacres.

The taliban did not just conquer terrority but the vast majority was bought under there control by making alliances with warlords,tribal elders ect this was a mistake looking back in retrospect as this diluted the true nature of the movement.
The disarming also took place where pushtoon warlords where in charge and was not a shia specific issue but one which was a problem with all non taliban people wanting to join the movement.
The only person who lack's anything concrete in his claims is yourself...from being convinced that the taliban had no shia commanders to know accepting that they did have shia commanders but they where not real commanders as they had nominal control over there area.
Do you understand the concept of governing a country? you want the taliban to let the warlords rule and not let the central authority exert control,they had to disarm the various warlords and bring them under the taliban...shia,tajik,hazara,pushtoon,doing the same thing that all poitical movements do.
I never said the taliban where a religiously tolerant sect,just that there where no diffrent to any other group in the world fighting for there country and are not the "be all end all" of evil on earth.

 

[dabong1]

Dude, why do you stick up Pakistan flags, when you would like to see it gone as part of some all conquering, all massacring caliphate?

Unlike yourself who has been mentally bent by the media into thinking that attacking the taliban and joining NATO/US is somehow good for pakistan i do not.
Try thinking about the endgame.

 

[dabong1]

Some attacks have against been military and the government, however many have been not. I can cite examples if you wish. You see this is the difference between me and you, I admit that some suicide attacks have been against 'valid' targets (in the rules of warfare) as this is true. However you seem unwilling to accept that the taliban have targeted civilians on purpose, you ignore this totally...

I do accept that the taliban lure NATO into attacking them in build up areas thus creating civilian deaths or "collateral damage" as the US army would call it.
Its not a good thing to do but do understand the tactic and why they are doing this.
Get a clear understanding of guerilla warfare and you will understand why they are doing this..rightly or wrongly it is tactic used since the vietnam war.

The actions of NATO that have hurt the Afghan populace are quite severe however the key difference here is again the intention. It's never NATO's intention to harm innocent Afghans as this endangers their objective in Afghanistan. Whereas the taliban have intended to hurt civilians. For me this makes the taliban morally worser then NATO especially when you consider that most of the Taliban are of the same or very similar ethnicity/religion as their victims....

You fight war with the weapons you have and maximize your strength while minimizing your opponents.
You want the taliban to fight a pitched battle in the open where NATO would annihilate them on the spot with there bombers,sorry mate i dont the talibans going to fall for that one.
The taliban need the populace on there side and one way of getting them is by blending into them and letting NATO attack thus creating sympathy for the cauce.
Yes its cold and heartless but that war.
"Torture is a method used in warfare to extract information from the enemy, it is of course awful but so is the business of war."

So you believe that muslim media would not check their facts and would willingly on purpose put out information that harms other muslims? I think this is just another excuse on your part, you cannot accept reality...

No they do not check there facts,just harp on about the same agenda as the west.
When was the last time you have seen the muslim press follow there own agenda...never

The key point of what I said is that they don't have to adhere to any religious ideology, NATO does not tell them they must believe in jesus. If they do believe then it's of their own free will and as long as it does not harm anyone they are free to believe in what they want. This is in stark contrast to the taliban. Torture is a method used in warfare to extract information from the enemy, it is of course awful but so is the business of war. Again this is not commited against random civilians but enemy soldiers. Also in stark contrast to the taliban..

Its just so happins that by pure chance there all christians but we can not call them a christian army even though the majority go to church...forced or not forced that is irrelevant to if NATO is made up of christian soldiers.

 

[dabong1]

I believe his loyalty is to his religious ideology (caliphate) rather then a single nation, so yes I wonder why he does it.

Damn right my loyalty is to my religious ideology first...islam and then to my nation.
I hope that eventually through negotiations a united states of islam will happin.
It is you that is anti pakistan by supporting the US/NATO in to killing our own people.

 

[Scorpius]

I do accept that the taliban lure NATO into attacking them in build up areas thus creating civilian deaths or "collateral damage" as the US army would call it.
Its not a good thing to do but do understand the tactic and why they are doing this.
Get a clear understanding of guerilla warfare and you will understand why they are doing this..rightly or wrongly it is tactic used since the vietnam war.

I am well aware of the reason why they do that (its hardly rocket science). Do you also admit that they deliberately attack civilians with suicide bombers?

You fight war with the weapons you have and maximize your strength while minimizing your opponents.
You want the taliban to fight a pitched battle in the open where NATO would annihilate them on the spot with there bombers,sorry mate i dont the talibans going to fall for that one.
The taliban need the populace on there side and one way of getting them is by blending into them and letting NATO attack thus creating sympathy for the cauce.
Yes its cold and heartless but that war.
"Torture is a method used in warfare to extract information from the enemy, it is of course awful but so is the business of war."

So you admit it, finally some honesty. You see the thing as you just said is the taliban need the populace on there side, as such some of the methods they use are designed to kill afghan civilians. Against the soviets it was different, the populace was already against the russians. The russians killed indiscriminately ensuring that the population turned against them.

In this case Nato do not kill indiscriminately like the russians, making your initial points about Nato massacres moot.

No they do not check there facts,just harp on about the same agenda as the west.
When was the last time you have seen the muslim press follow there own agenda...never

Plenty of times; the danish cartoon protest, the lal masjid incident, recent lebonan-israeli conflict. Shall I continue?

They have their agenda just like the western media have there's, both are sympathetic to there own kind. I find your ignorance amazing. Open your eyes, dont be so narrowminded. It's not beneficial to be like that.

Its just so happins that by pure chance there all christians but we can not call them a christian army even though the majority go to church...forced or not forced that is irrelevant to if NATO is made up of christian soldiers.

The reason why most of them are christian is because the popular religion of the countries they originate from is Christianity. You can describe it as a christian army and it would be accurate in merely that (description). However there agenda isn't christian and most of them don't fight for christianity.


Again it's very different to the taliban whose goals and aims are based on the religion of Islam, totally in contrast to Nato's goals.

 

[Scorpius]

Damn right my loyalty is to my religious ideology first...islam and then to my nation.
I hope that eventually through negotiations a united states of islam will happin.
It is you that is anti pakistan by supporting the US/NATO in to killing our own people.

You see you just said it there, Islam first. And if your nation suffers so that 'islam' benefits im sure you wouldn't mind.

How am I anti pakistan? I don't support people like osama whose goals are for a 'caliphate' which in turns hurt pakistan. You are the one supporting such people, so truly you are anti pakistan.

Your ability to lie is stunning. I wonder if you are aware of it or if it is unconscious.

 

[dabong1]

I am well aware of the reason why they do that (its hardly rocket science). Do you also admit that they deliberately attack civilians with suicide bombers?.

Thank god finally you finally understand,you must still be feeling the effects of that anti taliban media campaign if you insist on beliving that the taliban target there own people with suicide bombers.

So you admit it, finally some honesty. You see the thing as you just said is the taliban need the populace on there side, as such some of the methods they use are designed to kill afghan civilians. Against the soviets it was different, the populace was already against the russians. The russians killed indiscriminately ensuring that the population turned against them..

The vast majority of the populace is with the taliban....thats why there still here as a movement....if the afghan people where against them as you like to claim why are they getting stronger each month....
lol i am sure it was people like yourself that thought the taliban was a spent force after there retreat and people like me that told you there would be a comback.

In this case Nato do not kill indiscriminately like the russians, making your initial points about Nato massacres moot...

Yeah and they do not torture people like they did in bagram and abu ghraib......open your eyes and stop living in some dreamword where the western nations are some sort of humane people that only want peace......Check your history.

Plenty of times; the danish cartoon protest, the lal masjid incident, recent lebonan-israeli conflict. Shall I continue?...

So the muslim press was saying lets help the lebanese with there war against israel by supporting them with arms and weapons......no all they did was report the same rubbish as the western press.

They have their agenda just like the western media have there's, both are sympathetic to there own kind. I find your ignorance amazing. Open your eyes, dont be so narrowminded. It's not beneficial to be like that...

Do you really think the muslim press has a impact as the same as the western press.....Al jazeera thought they would start doing stop proper reporting on the issues until they got bombed by the americans in afghanistan and iraq......let me guess it was mistake the US/NATO would never do that,they stand for human rights blah blah blah "I find your ignorance amazing"

The reason why most of them are christian is because the popular religion of the countries they originate from is Christianity. You can describe it as a christian army and it would be accurate in merely that (description). However there agenda isn't christian and most of them don't fight for christianity.


Again it's very different to the taliban whose goals and aims are based on the religion of Islam, totally in contrast to Nato's goals.

So as long the taliban say that they are not fighting for islam there okay by you are they?
Muslim/islamic apologist like yourself are the real danger to pakistan ones that think faith should have no place in the affairs of the country.

 

[dabong1]

You see you just said it there, Islam first. And if your nation suffers so that 'islam' benefits im sure you wouldn't mind. .

So what your saying is that for you being a pakistani is more important then being a muslim?
Damn...do actually belive in the koran or do you think its a outdated book from history that has no relevance for todays age.

How am I anti pakistan? I don't support people like osama whose goals are for a 'caliphate' which in turns hurt pakistan. You are the one supporting such people, so truly you are anti pakistan. .

When did i say i supported osama?

Your ability to lie is stunning. I wonder if you are aware of it or if it is unconscious.

Are we crying now...dont worry it happins to pathetic idiots who understand nothing but what the media feeds them,once those crappy arguments are destroyed its always the same ...name callling.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Me with no military knowledge could have told you that this is what would happin if you got the pakistani army to attack there own people.

By that logic no nation should conduct any sort of law enforcement then, because every time you would hunt down criminals and punish them, you would be "attacking your own people". However if you do not coerce other people, do not threaten their lives and material possessions and do not threaten peace, you have nothing to worry about - Unfortunately, the Taliban/militants have done exactly the opposite, so the state has a responsibility to act, just like it would against any other criminal.

I wonder how keen the punjabi officers would be if mushy told them to attack punjab.

I am not sure how they would act, since I don't have ESP, but I can tell you how they should act. If we had militants in Punjab, they should be captured, killed or disarmed just as they should be in any other part of Pakistan, including Waziristan.

 

[Scorpius]

Thank god finally you finally understand,you must still be feeling the effects of that anti taliban media campaign if you insist on beliving that the taliban target there own people with suicide bombers.

16 January 2006 - at least 20 people are killed and 20 others injured when a bomb attached to a motorcycle explodes at a playground where hundreds of people were gathered for a festival in Spin Boldak, bordering Pakistan.

I wonder what festival this was?

1 June 2005 -- An attacker reportedly dressed in a police uniform detonates a bomb at the entrance to a mosque at a funeral for a slain anti-Taliban cleric, killing 19 and injuring 52, including Kabul's police chief.

7 May 2005 -- A suicide bomber attacks an Internet cafe at a guesthouse in Kabul, killing a UN engineer and an Afghan national and injuring five others.



There's more. Afghanistan: Civilians Bear Cost of Escalating Insurgent Attacks (Human Rights Watch, 16-4-2007)


Of course there's no point to this as you'll brush it off calling it anti taliban propaganda.

The vast majority of the populace is with the taliban....thats why there still here as a movement....if the afghan people where against them as you like to claim why are they getting stronger each month....
lol i am sure it was people like yourself that thought the taliban was a spent force after there retreat and people like me that told you there would be a comback.

You have just said that the taliban lured americans to attack civilian areas, why would they do this unless they needed more support?

They are not with the taliban, if this was the case then the level of resistance would be far far higher, it is not.

There are more pushtuns in Pakistan then in Afghanistan, many of these are unemployed and poor. They are easily recruitable cannon fodder for the taliban.

Your last sentence is interesting as it assumes you know something about my past, I highly doubt you know what my views were back then.

Yeah and they do not torture people like they did in bagram and abu ghraib......open your eyes and stop living in some dreamword where the western nations are some sort of humane people that only want peace......Check your history.

You have just quoted me on the previous page saying that Americans torture and this is how war is like. What part of that did you not grasp? The people who are tortured are the ones who have valuable information or believed to have, there is often (but not always) good reason for them being tortured.

The west is not perfect (I infact believe its very ruthless) however they are far more civilised then the likes of the taliban, who get 12 year olds to behead men.

Do you really think the muslim press has a impact as the same as the western press.....Al jazeera thought they would start doing stop proper reporting on the issues until they got bombed by the americans in afghanistan and iraq......let me guess it was mistake the US/NATO would never do that,they stand for human rights blah blah blah "I find your ignorance amazing"

In the muslim world they have more impact then the western press and vice versa.. (simple really.)

It didn't stop Al jazeera reporting though did it. And the very fact that they were bombed goes against your theory that they 'spout rubbish like the western press'.

So as long the taliban say that they are not fighting for islam there okay by you are they?
Muslim/islamic apologist like yourself are the real danger to pakistan ones that think faith should have no place in the affairs of the country.

They will never be ok with me unless they're all dead or cease to be effective.

Not really, people like us know what's right for Pakistan. We dont have an ideology telling us what to do, we can think for ourselves.

Now someone like yourself, who despises the nation he lives in, supports the killing of british soldiers all because his ideology tells him to do so.

You dont care about Pakistan, you care about the ummah. I know your type very well, angry men with a chip on they're shoulder who think they can change the world with god's blessings.(similar to the crusades really)

 

[Scorpius]

So what your saying is that for you being a pakistani is more important then being a muslim?
Damn...do actually belive in the koran or do you think its a outdated book from history that has no relevance for todays age.

I am not a Pakistani (nationality=British) so I cant answer that question for you. As for my religious beliefs that is between me and Allah (swt).

When did i say i supported osama?

My mistake, however you support similar minded people so my point still stands.

Are we crying now...dont worry it happins to pathetic idiots who understand nothing but what the media feeds them,once those crappy arguments are destroyed its always the same ...name callling.

I am very calm infact (something your mullahs havent taught you), I haven't name called at all, infact it is you who is doing so (by calling me a idiot).

I said you are lying because first you state that your loyalty is to religious ideology, then claim secondly it is to Pakistan.(a servant cannot have two masters) Then on top of that you call me anti Pakistan, which is quite hilarious really.