‘Taliban’s participation necessary for peace’

[dabong1]

Wie Sie Wollen!

As you wish!

After all, you must have been there since you seem to know more than the world or anyone else here on any subject!

You are the last word - Z

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Unlike yourself salim i do not take on face value what the media tells me ,be it pakistani,western or the indian media.
Have you heard of a thing called editing?
Recall saddams lynching.....if it was not for the phone footage we would have all thought it was a civilized manner in which the iraqi/US had executed him,but no it was not like that once we saw the phone footage.
The execution of the woman in the stadium was shown edited by the western media to make the taliban look as bad as possible.
The full version which was on the internet and if you can be bothered to find it will show that you where wrong in what you said and i was right.....go find it and prove me wrong.
Sorry where you there also that you are so sure in what your saying?

 

[dabong1]

Don't avoid the questions. I'd like to hear your answer to the question in bold in fact. Let me hear your logic. If there's a sembalance of logic in what you say, I will convert myself into a rabid anti Musharraf supporter.If you can't answer it, then carry on posting pointless comments in relation to this post.

Well, it disproves your point. The Army attack wherever there are people that wish to threaten the security of Pakistan and Pakistanis or foreigners living there - If it's people kidnapping others in Isloo or people threatening music stores in the frontier, doesn't really matter. The tribals just have more of thse radicals in their area which calls for more action there. Trying to claim there's some bias in it is laughable. There's a problem with foreign radicals crossing over into Pakistan from Afghanistan. They target Waziristan, and that's why there's more army action there. Even I know that the Americans will just flatten the place, if the PA does not go in and act on any intelligence. Why is it that you want the Americans to do the bombing, rather than the PA doing a more surgical search and arrest? Do you only have one agenda you're hell bent on, and that being the destruction of Pakistan so that you can divide it up with your caliphate brothers? The casualties of innocents the Americans would inflict would be much greater than what the PA are doing, yet you are hell bent against PA..keep sticking up Pakistani flags, it won't do you any good, your end goal is clear and it's got nothing to do with the interests of Pakistan, but your caliphate brothers

Well considering you asked question is such a loaded way that can only be one outcome to your question,let me reword it.

"Why is it that you want the Americans to do the bombing, rather than the PA do the bombing"

or shall we try

Why is it that you want the PA to do the bombing, rather than the americans doing a more surgical search and arrest?

Considering americans have a lot more tech then the PA dont you think they would be better at "surgical search and arrest"

 

[roadrunner]

Well considering you asked question is such a loaded way that can only be one outcome to your question,let me reword it.

"Why is it that you want the Americans to do the bombing, rather than the PA do the bombing"

or shall we try

Why is it that you want the PA to do the bombing, rather than the americans doing a more surgical search and arrest?

Considering americans have a lot more tech then the PA dont you think they would be better at "surgical search and arrest"

Oh please.., Pakistan can target locations with pinpoint accuracy with its cruise missiles or whatever else they need. The Americans can also, and I can't see your logic in wanting a foreign force occupying an area, especially the American forces, given the anti American sentiment there. You have such a tinted spectacle anti-Pak attitude you have no consistency in your stand. Sometimes you stick up Pak flags, then you'll be saying the Americans don't do collateral damage, or would be better or more accepted for doing surgical strikes, or house searches. Let's be very clear so that even you can understand. Americans do not have an understanding of the culture in Waziristan, the Pakistani forces do. The Americans are not shy of bombing people to catch terrorists, and if innocents are caught in the process, that's hard luck. This has happened before, and it would happen again. Pakistani forces are not emotionless - they have not being indoctrinated that all Muslims are bad, they will show cultural sensitivity and they won't kill their own people unless they KNOW the people they are targetting have done something to hurt Pakistan's security. Do you believe that the average Pakistani forces soldier is less caring about civilian life in his own country, than the Americans are for civilian life in a foreign country like Pakistan?

It shows your logic, or lack of it, that your re-wording is suggesting that you would prefer to see American troops in Waziristan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Okay fair enough,i have your waziristan post and i mostly agree with what you have to say.
Where we differ is how to deal with the issue,you as far as i can see want a military solution to the FATA issue while i do not.
I do not think the life of a single pakistan soldier is worth wasting fighting a war for the US against our own.
Who bought the MMA into power in these area's?
I do not rate mushy as leader...below average in my opinion compared to other leaders,as a soldier he is great but as a general/president he is useless going of his track record.
I have no problem with targeted assisination of trouble making taliban in pakistan,let us have an intelligence based counter insurgency based on facts and not a list handed down us by the US of people it knows once killed by pak army will inflame the sutition even more.
The US has never been a friend of pakistan and never will.
The majority of attacks against NATO forces is in helmand province,how is that linked to crossing the border between FATA and afghanistan.
Should they not try sealing the border near quetta first?
Pakistan wants to mine the border to stop the accusations of cross border movement but the afghan govt with US backing does not want to allow this...why?
The reason i support the taliban is only becauce i think it is in pakistan's long term interest.
Where we better off with the taliban in charge of afghanistan or the NA which now holds power.

You are incorrect in assuming that I support a military solution. What I do support is the right of law enforcement and security forces to deploy to any part of the country when the need arises. If check posts have to be set up to address complaints from both locals (bombing of businesses, harrasment and random executions of individuals) and foreigners (cross border attacks), or even if a government assessment of the law and order situation demands such a move, then the security forces have the right to do that. The reaction of certain groups to that action (suicide bombings and ambushes) only illustrates that the problem exists.

If the militants stop blowing up businesses, harassing the citizens of the area and attacking security forces for setting up "check points", then the army will eventually be able to withdraw - but at this point it cannot allow the impression to be created that if you indulge in enough terrorism and attacks on civilians and security forces, the security forces will just pack up and leave. If that happens then every dacoit, criminal, Wadera and Jagirdar is going to start carving out his fiefdom by committing violence.

The State should offer an alternative by creating a system that allows for the people to choose who should represent them (therefore giving the Taliban a peaceful option to "change the system" if they give up violence) - but it cannot back down. The consequences of such a move, nationwide, would be disastrous.

With regards to your statement that you support "targeted strikes", that is exactly what the Pakistan Army has been doing! When was the last time you heard about Pakistani aircraft bombing a wedding ceremony? The PA has taken extraordinary care to only act when it has "actionable intelligence", so much so that we have been accused of colluding with the Taliban and threatened with military strikes. Even in the aftermath of the LM incident, the "operation" has overwhelmingly consisted of targeted strikes and retaliation to attacks initiated by the militants. Almost every single "encounter" results when SF convoys are ambushed or their check posts are attacked.

I have to agree with RR here, you are so convinced that the PA is "wrong", that you have completely ignored the realities of their conduct on the ground - their restraint and compassion towards the local populace in not using NATO tactics while fighting. They are operating just as you declared you would like to see them operate!

 

[dabong1]

You are incorrect in assuming that I support a military solution. What I do support is the right of law enforcement and security forces to deploy to any part of the country when the need arises. If check posts have to be set up to address complaints from both locals (bombing of businesses, harrasment and random executions of individuals) and foreigners (cross border attacks), or even if a government assessment of the law and order situation demands such a move, then the security forces have the right to do that. The reaction of certain groups to that action (suicide bombings and ambushes) only illustrates that the problem exists.

Where all these problems occuring before the PA went into wazirastan....?
Where PA being attacked before the US forced mushy to go into wazirastan...?
The only reason the PA is in these areas is at the behest of the US not becauce off complaints from locals.
Government assessment of the law and order situation did demand that the PA be sent but becauce the US told them to.

If the militants stop blowing up businesses, harassing the citizens of the area and attacking security forces for setting up "check points", then the army will eventually be able to withdraw - but at this point it cannot allow the impression to be created that if you indulge in enough terrorism and attacks on civilians and security forces, the security forces will just pack up and leave. If that happens then every dacoit, criminal, Wadera and Jagirdar is going to start carving out his fiefdom by committing violence. .

Nobody is going to carve out fiefdoms thats you exaggarating again.

The State should offer an alternative by creating a system that allows for the people to choose who should represent them (therefore giving the Taliban a peaceful option to "change the system" if they give up violence) - but it cannot back down. The consequences of such a move, nationwide, would be disastrous..

Where has the state been the last 50 years...no schools..no hospitals

With regards to your statement that you support "targeted strikes", that is exactly what the Pakistan Army has been doing! When was the last time you heard about Pakistani aircraft bombing a wedding ceremony? The PA has taken extraordinary care to only act when it has "actionable intelligence", so much so that we have been accused of colluding with the Taliban and threatened with military strikes. Even in the aftermath of the LM incident, the "operation" has overwhelmingly consisted of targeted strikes and retaliation to attacks initiated by the militants. Almost every single "encounter" results when SF convoys are ambushed or their check posts are attacked...

As i said before instances of PA razing villages to the ground and killing civilians is common in the area its just not reported in the press.
Thats coming from a pak soldier's i have spoken to who have been fighting in waziristan.
You must be living in cuckoo land if you think the PA do not carry out attacks on the local people.

I have to agree with RR here, you are so convinced that the PA is "wrong", that you have completely ignored the realities of their conduct on the ground - their restraint and compassion towards the local populace in not using NATO tactics while fighting. They are operating just as you declared you would like to see them operate!

It is you that is blinded by the non stop anti taliban coverage.
"restraint and compassion towards the local populace"...give me a break

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Where all these problems occuring before the PA went into wazirastan....?
Where PA being attacked before the US forced mushy to go into wazirastan...?
The only reason the PA is in these areas is at the behest of the US not becauce off complaints from locals.
Government assessment of the law and order situation did demand that the PA be sent but becauce the US told them to.

Nobody is going to carve out fiefdoms thats you exaggarating again.

Where has the state been the last 50 years...no schools..no hospitals

As i said before instances of PA razing villages to the ground and killing civilians is common in the area its just not reported in the press.
Thats coming from a pak soldier's i have spoken to who have been fighting in waziristan.
You must be living in cuckoo land if you think the PA do not carry out attacks on the local people.

It is you that is blinded by the non stop anti taliban coverage.
"restraint and compassion towards the local populace"...give me a break

...and round and round we go....

The problems of cross border attacks (on NATO) have existed since the invasion began, and since FATA is part of Pakistan, it is our responsibility to ensure that our territory does not become a refuge for militants. If they want to fight, they can stay over there. Since that time, the Taliban have also started forcefully and violently asserting their control in Pakistani FATA, as indicated by the numerous news reports I have posted (and others) penned by mostly Pashtun authors, printed and reported in newspapers and electronic media that are extremely hostile to Musharraf (therefore would have no reason to hide anything that could hurt him). These activities were also spilling over into the bordering settled areas, which made it a national security concern.

I would say that the evidence supporting the necessity for PA involvement in the area is overwhelming and has been presented on this thread. It is you who has to come up with concrete rebuttals and provide evidence to support your POV, other than a "conversation" with an alleged "PA soldier". The PA does not brainwash its soldiers when they sign up. It is entirely possible that their are individuals in it, such as yourself, who believe in a "pan-Islamic caliphate", and would have no qualms about making the far reaching accusations you have made without any evidence.

So unless you can provide some evidence to back up your assertion that massive and systematic collateral damage has been inflicted by the PA, I'll conclude that you really don't have any idea what you're talking about.

 

[dabong1]

...and round and round we go....

The problems of cross border attacks (on NATO) have existed since the invasion began, and since FATA is part of Pakistan, it is our responsibility to ensure that our territory does not become a refuge for militants. If they want to fight, they can stay over there. Since that time, the Taliban have also started forcefully and violently asserting their control in Pakistani FATA, as indicated by the numerous news reports I have posted (and others) penned by mostly Pashtun authors, printed and reported in newspapers and electronic media that are extremely hostile to Musharraf (therefore would have no reason to hide anything that could hurt him). These activities were also spilling over into the bordering settled areas, which made it a national security concern.

I would say that the evidence supporting the necessity for PA involvement in the area is overwhelming and has been presented on this thread. It is you who has to come up with concrete rebuttals and provide evidence to support your POV, other than a "conversation" with an alleged "PA soldier". The PA does not brainwash its soldiers when they sign up. It is entirely possible that their are individuals in it, such as yourself, who believe in a "pan-Islamic caliphate", and would have no qualms about making the far reaching accusations you have made without any evidence.

So unless you can provide some evidence to back up your assertion that massive and systematic collateral damage has been inflicted by the PA, I'll conclude that you really don't have any idea what you're talking about.

As usual do not answer any question i have asked.
If you live in pakistan how hard is it going to be for you to find soldiers that are fighting in FATA and asking them questions about what is going on.
Do you know what primary sources and secondary sources are?
My evidence is based on having friends/family that are in the taliban/PA/NATO that i talk to on a regular basis...gives me cross section of opinion from people that are on the ground.
The blockhouse technique employed by the PA was working fine until the US forced mushy to get into an all out war with the tribesman.
Answer one question if your capable of doing that....why will NATO/afghan govt not allow the mining of the border.
Try to answer at least one of my questions....if your capable of doing that.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Do you know what primary sources and secondary sources are?

My evidence is based on having friends/family that are in the taliban/PA/NATO that i talk to on a regular basis...gives me cross section of opinion from people that are on the ground.

Oh you mean the same ones you were denying existed when talking about "lack of media access in FATA"?
If there are so many "primary and secondary sources" of HR violations in FATA, the media should have this stuff all over the front pages considering how anti-musharraf and anti army they are. So where is it? Where is the evidence? Pardon me for not believing the fantastic conspiracy theories of a nobody.

I can sit here and type out that I know so and so as well. It doesn't count for anything unless you can present evidence to back up your assertion from independent/neutral sources.

The blockhouse technique employed by the PA was working fine until the US forced mushy to get into an all out war with the tribesman.
Answer one question if your capable of doing that....why will NATO/afghan govt not allow the mining of the border.
Try to answer at least one of my questions....if your capable of doing that.

The Afghans have suffered a lot from land mines already. The current movement in the international community is one that wants to ban the use of land mines completely, not encourage more use. To oppose mining the border is the correct thing to do.

Your questions have been answered. You have been provided with proof of taliban atrocities - which you deny are true but have not presented any evidence to back your assertion .

So how about you answer our questions and provide some evidence to substantiate your claims?

 

[Cheetah786]

The Taliban have said they were ready for talks with the Afghan government, one day after Hamid Karzai, the president, offered negotiations in a bid to end bloodshed.
"For the sake of national interests ... we are fully ready for talks with the government," Yousuf Ahmadi, senior Taliban spokesman, told AFP on Monday.
The spokesman said the Taliban could hold talks with the Afghan government as it did with South Korean officials over 21 hostages who were freed after several meetings.
"As we did hold negotiations with the South Korean government, we can hold talks at an even higher level with the government," he said by telephone from an undisclosed location.
Karzai has regularly offered talks with the Taliban, and there have been rumours that contact has already been made.
The president denied on Monday that "formal negotiations" were under way with the fighters but said he was ready to start such dialogue if he could find the "address for the Taliban".
Ahmadi responded: "If they want our address - we're among the people. If they're honest for talks, we're ready for it."

Al Jazeera English - News - Taliban 'Ready For Afghan Talks'

 

[dabong1]

Oh you mean the same ones you were denying existed when talking about "lack of media access in FATA"?
If there are so many "primary and secondary sources" of HR violations in FATA, the media should have this stuff all over the front pages considering how anti-musharraf and anti army they are. So where is it? Where is the evidence? Pardon me for not believing the fantastic conspiracy theories of a nobody. ?

You must be the most inconsistent person i have ever come across,i don't think you even understand what "primary and secondary sources" means.
The reason there is no mention of HR abuses is really simple ...theres no media allowed in the area...

I can sit here and type out that I know so and so as well. It doesn't count for anything unless you can present evidence to back up your assertion from independent/neutral sources.

Theres just a bit of difference between us two is ,I can back up my cliams of knowing people in NATO/PA/Taliban...you cant.
Go ahead ask me for proof....

The Afghans have suffered a lot from land mines already. The current movement in the international community is one that wants to ban the use of land mines completely, not encourage more use. To oppose mining the border is the correct thing to do..

That is pathetic reason,more of an excuse to keep blaming pakistan for aiding and abetting the militants in afghanistan.....dear god you have been totally brainwashed.

Your questions have been answered. You have been provided with proof of taliban atrocities - which you deny are true but have not presented any evidence to back your assertion .

So how about you answer our questions and provide some evidence to substantiate your claims?

When you start answering my questions i will start answering yours.
People like you that want to see pakistan fall into a civil war are the real danger to the nation with your western/US ideology,where islam will have no place in pakistan and thinking that the US will be our friends are totally deluded.

 

[Scorpius]

lol at dabong1 waving the Pak flag. It's like the idiots on eid who stick pak flags out of their cars (alum rock road, etc). Meaningless and stupid.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You must be the most inconsistent person i have ever come across,i don't think you even understand what "primary and secondary sources" means.
The reason there is no mention of HR abuses is really simple ...theres no media allowed in the area...

The inconsistency my friend occurs when you state that you have access to "sources" that narrate the "true" version of events, yet the media does not print any of these fairy tales you spout because they do not have access to the area. Do you really need me to point out the flaws in this statement? Apparently amongst the hundreds, if not thousands of reporters and news organizations in Pakistan, only the "great Dabong" has access to "primary and/or secondary sources" that bring news of Pakistan Army "atrocities" - only the "great Dabong" has friends and/or family that might have connections to the area.

Theres just a bit of difference between us two is ,I can back up my cliams of knowing people in NATO/PA/Taliban...you cant.
Go ahead ask me for proof....

If you have evidence from neutral and/or independent sources, well you can go back and count how many times you have been asked to present evidence to back up your POV. All you do is bounce around, change the questions and pose them back at us, and provide no evidence whatsoever. So for once it would be nice to see how you substantiate your allegations.

That is pathetic reason,more of an excuse to keep blaming pakistan for aiding and abetting the militants in afghanistan.....dear god you have been totally brainwashed.

So now you are denying the devastating effects land mines have had on people throughout the world?

When you start answering my questions i will start answering yours.
People like you that want to see pakistan fall into a civil war are the real danger to the nation with your western/US ideology,where islam will have no place in pakistan and thinking that the US will be our friends are totally deluded.

Your questions have been answered every single time. You asked for proof of atrocities by the Taliban, and it was given. Last time around your question was:

Answer one question if your capable of doing that....why will NATO/afghan govt not allow the mining of the border.
Try to answer at least one of my questions....if your capable of doing that.

I answered that- whether you liked the answer or not is your problem. All you could come up with as a rebuttal to my answer was that its "pathetic". Thats hardly an analytical or logical response to the arguments I made.

So now your "question" has been answered, are you providing any evidence to back up your assertions? There is no point answering anything else you rant about until you can validate your allegation that the Pakistan Army is inflicting systematic and massive collateral damage upon the "innocent" Tribals.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Primary Sources

A primary source provides direct or firsthand evidence about an event, object, person or work of art. Characteristically, primary sources are contemporary to the events and people described and show minimal or no mediation between the document/artifact and its creator. As to the format, primary source materials can be written and non-written, the latter including sound, picture, and artifact. Examples of primary sources include:
* personal correspondence and diaries
* works of art and literature
* speeches and oral histories
* audio and video recordings
* photographs and posters
* newspaper ads and stories
* laws and legislative hearings
* census or demographic records
* plant and animal specimens
* coins and tools
Secondary Sources

A secondary source, in contrast, lacks the immediacy of a primary record. As materials produced sometime after an event happened, they contain information that has been interpreted, commented, analyzed or processed in such a way that it no longer conveys the freshness of the original. History textbooks, dictionaries, encyclopedias, interpretive journal articles, and book reviews are all examples of secondary sources. Secondary sources are often based on primary sources.

Hopefully when you do get around to presenting your evidence from "secondary sources", it will somewhat follow the guidelines laid out above, and not fall completely into the domain of "opinions and gossip" of a few individuals with the same ideology and biases as yourself.

 

[dabong1]

lol at dabong1 waving the Pak flag. It's like the idiots on eid who stick pak flags out of their cars (alum rock road, etc). Meaningless and stupid.

Little things affect little minds.

 

[dabong1]

The inconsistency my friend occurs when you state that you have access to "sources" that narrate the "true" version of events, yet the media does not print any of these fairy tales you spout because they do not have access to the area. Do you really need me to point out the flaws in this statement? Apparently amongst the hundreds, if not thousands of reporters and news organizations in Pakistan, only the "great Dabong" has access to "primary and/or secondary sources" that bring news of Pakistan Army "atrocities" - only the "great Dabong" has friends and/or family that might have connections to the area..

So there "hundreds, if not thousands of reporters and news organizations in Pakistan" that are reporting from the area are they?
Do you understand what happins in a insurgency...?

If you have evidence from neutral and/or independent sources, well you can go back and count how many times you have been asked to present evidence to back up your POV. All you do is bounce around, change the questions and pose them back at us, and provide no evidence whatsoever. So for once it would be nice to see how you substantiate your allegations...

So the pak army is getting attacked and they do nothing in revenge when they fing there soldiers beheaded.......dream on

So now you are denying the devastating effects land mines have had on people throughout the world?...

You said yourself its the militants crossing the border......why are so bothered about what happins to them?
Or have you got another agenda where you do not want any action that works at stopping people crossing the border so the pakistani's can keep getting blamed.

Your questions have been answered every single time. You asked for proof of atrocities by the Taliban, and it was given. Last time around your question was:?...

Why are these "atrocities" talking place was the question which you skillfully avoided by you like why is quetta not being attacked by pak army as the majority of attacks are in helmand province.
Was pak army getting attacked before it joined the americans in killing its own people.

I answered that- whether you liked the answer or not is your problem. All you could come up with as a rebuttal to my answer was that its "pathetic". Thats hardly an analytical or logical response to the arguments I made.:..

I say it again you claim taliban are crossing the border into afghanistan and attacking NATO.
Why are you so concerned with the well being of the militants.....its only them will get blown up by the mines.

So now your "question" has been answered, are you providing any evidence to back up your assertions? There is no point answering anything else you rant about until you can validate your allegation that the Pakistan Army is inflicting systematic and massive collateral damage upon the "innocent" Tribals.

When mushy leaves then we will see what the army has been doing at the behest of the americans......at least admit where only in there becauce they told mushy to go into FATA.