"Could" being the operative term here. You don't know what the missions are of these infantry commanders-neither generally nor specifically during the siege…
Ofcourse I don’t. Not with the particulars necessary to discuss these matters definitely anyway. And neither do you for that matter. I was under the impression that we’re discussing the ‘ifs’ and ‘whys’ and ‘hows’ of this little affair in an intellectually spirited but mainly hypothetical discussion. I’ve never said anything that might suggest otherwise.
Has the P.A. ruled out the relief of garrisons besieged at night by virtue of an overweening reliance on non-existant NVGs to operate after dark? As there evidently aren't enough/any/some/one, the P.A. simply calls it a day at dusk.
You don’t know that. There is no way you can know the dynamics of the situation. Unavailability of NVGs might well have been a contributing factor, but I don’t think that was entirely the case here. Perhaps you failed to read my posts, but I did say that the failure to reinforce the post in a timely manner was inexcusable repeatedly.
The battalion or company commanders may have tried to tackle their hindrances pragmatically. But your allegations and/or implications regarding troops going to sleep and becoming ‘non-functional’ on the basis of it being dark alone while their comrades fight it out are baseless, unjustified and uncalled for. All I have ever said was that it is not impossible to contemplate that unavailability of equipment compounded by tactical difficulties could pose challenges to units in certain situations, if only to moderate your all encompassing ‘non-functional’ comments. We can’t get any more definitive because we don’t even know if the reinforcing troops faced NVG shortages, or if any unit was given a relieving assignment in the first place.
You possess no relevant experience and can offer no professional judgement on whether these operations are possible in the absence of NVGs.
You keep telling yourself that.
Here is what I actually said in my first post:
Being non-functional is not the same as acknowledging the obvious limitations of operating in a limited visibility environment without appropriate equipment- so while you allege sweeping terms like ‘non-functional’, my words were more guarded. I said troops face ‘obvious limitations’ when they don’t have NVGs, not ‘absolute’ possibility or impossibility.
They absolutely are possible and, in fact, are standard fare for infantry battalions…
I never said they were not possible. In fact you’re the one who was attributing inability of this to Pakistani units. I pointed out that while they may acknowledge ‘obvious limitations’ in certain situations being faced ‘without appropriate equipment’. I never made sweeping remarks like yours.
I'm hardly worked up. OTOH, I don't necessarily appreciate a dissemblance of my comments such that you'd reply as below-
"I won’t be asking my men to advance on a minefield or an enemy position at night without NVGs (and certainly not on a full moon) unless given the most explicit orders..."
I was making a simple observation, hoping to add a reasonable contribution to the discourse. Since I said nothing wrong, and didn’t attribute any false claims to you, I see no justification for you to get worked up. But if you’re so stuck on this, then know it was just one of the ‘obvious limitations’ I mentioned for operating without NVGs. You don’t think it is? Fine, then I pity all the men you might ever have had responsibility for. But I don’t appreciate this lame dissemblance of my observations either. I’m not out to get you, just give it a break.
Are you dramatizing for effect? You seem to be, so yes, I'd say you're less than accurate.
What would I achieve by dramatizing an already messed up situation? It is entirely your fault that your brain interpreted my words to mean “Oh the reinforcements didn’t make it through because their way was blocked by mine fields don’t you know…” Accuracy is not an issue here, since I am not referring to any particular event or claim. Next time think about what I meant before lashing out.
You grossly speculate without any substance whatsoever.
But you on the other hand have so much to go on with all these rants? I made sure I was clear on the fact that this was just speculation, but we
can know some things. Compared to some of the presumptuously conclusive BS you cook up, I’d say I’m rather grounded when I feel it is easier for sufficiently skilled fighters to sneak dangerously close to an outpost built on a dominating position, provided they exhibit no weapons discharge and the defenders lack proper night equipment. It is easy to see how the post’s 12.7mm tripod mounted gun might not have been much use in the visibility afforded to the men by a beam of light at the end of a sergeants battery torch either. Any militant commander with half a brain would have chosen a night attack to negate the spotting advantages of numerically inferior but fortified (probably elevated) defenders. We can talk about it, but I take it you don’t want to. Just because you might’ve done something with or without NVGs in your ‘glory days’ means anything and everything someone else might have to say is crap, right?
What you do know is that your military doesn't operate at night well at all and seem to pull back after dark and this is embarassing in light of questions from foreigners.
I would never be crazy enough to say our Army doesn’t operate at night, they’ve been doing that since year 1 I can refer to a few such operations off the back of my head. Please quote where it is that I said this for the benefit of others. But I don't expect them to achieve the proficiency demonstrated by American units either. And secondly, you just have an inflated opinion of your own importance to us, nothing more.
So you sally to the defense of the army with claims of the impossibility of night operations in the absence of NVGs.
I never said that. But if you insist on raging about how everything that is possible with NVG capability is possible without it- then I’ll say this; I’m not the old deluded man sitting on a computer right now.
You’re constantly misquoting me, cut it out.
Not exactly something to inspire the confidence and exemplary devotion to duty at the ol' police houses around the neighborhood if you ask me.
For the last time I am not trying to justify our failure to reinforce that post in time. I made that EXPLICITLY clear in the last post. I’m well aware of the wide-spread morale implications associated with failings like these.
Twenty year old technology now and, I'm sure, passed by a couple of generations of improvement. I speculate that this era equipment is readily available.
And you accuse me of assuming too much… Did it ever occur to you that maybe these couple of dozen policemen didn’t have the stuff that you did in the 80s? But that ‘speculation’ of yours is indisputable is it?
Also I suggest you stop ranting and taking things for granted. You don’t know what happened, you’re obviously over reacting. You don’t know what part NVG played here, if any, so please STFU about us shutting down after dark. NVGs might have been the problem, or it might have been something else like communication or even downright incompetence. Your excessive rhetoric is not constructive and ruining the atmosphere for discussion. In the past I’ve repeatedly asked you to refrain from this nastiness, but it’s too much to ask for isn’t it?
So are we clear now? Let’s see what you have to say…
