Taliban Funding

[S-2]

Wall Street Journal has an interesting article on the Taliban's funding and it's much as S-2 has surmised-opium and donors- with an added kicker of legitimate businesses either owned by the taliban or from which the taliban are receiving kickbacks.

There's a hidden hand alright- in the gulf and among your own Pakistani sympathizers-

Taliban's Foreign Support Vexes U.S. - WSJ.com

"Pakistani Ambassador Hussein Haqqani said his government had frozen hundreds of bank accounts tied to the Taliban and other extremist groups and said the effort is a 'work in progress...

...The extremist networks continue to find new financing schemes and methods to evade law enforcement,' he said."

 

[S-2]

MOD EDIT: Getting discussion back on track

This is a muslim insurgency in both Afghanistan and Pakistan fueled by muslim donors globally (to include, likely, Indian muslims) but most notably in the G.C.C./KSA and within Pakistan.

There are "hidden hands" alright. Just not the usual suspects routinely traipsed out here.

 

[EjazR]

This is a muslim insurgency in both Afghanistan and Pakistan fueled by muslim donors globally (to include, likely, Indian muslims) but most notably in the G.C.C./KSA and within Pakistan.

Please avoid scapegoating Indian muslims until any involvement from them is shown. You might be aware that till date, no Indian muslim has ever been associated with the global jihadist type groups such as Al-Qaeda or found to be part of / supporting the Taleban in any way. This is DESPITE the fact that there are just under 200 million Indian muslims (almost 15% of the total world muslim population), far larger than individual Arab states populations.

Number of muslim in all Arab countries comprise about 20% of total muslim population. Compared to Arabs, a large proportion of Indian muslims have a far less standard of living. The only radicalization/terrorists attacks by some Indian muslims have been in response to religious strife and that too has been localized to within India alone. Even in Kashmir where some Kashmiri muslims have joined sepratists group, their attacks have been localised to within Kashmir. But this again has come down in recent years as the situation improves on the ground.

So please do keep in mind the under-representation of Indian muslims in Taleban and Al-Qaeda type organisations given that they constitute almost 15% of the global muslim population.

No Indian Muslim link with Al Qaida
Why no Indian Muslim is in Al-Qaeda?

 

[S-2]

Your sentiments are appreciated but my instincts suggest that a muslim population of your size leaves room for these donations as a "likely" consideration.

I believe "likely" is the operative term and I'll not discount it yet despite your protestations to the contrary. Neither have I over-emphasized it's importance.

It is what it is- a consideration as might be the case with any muslim globally and with the financial means.

 

[asq]

"I had just started feeling proud of RAW "

Oh, the sentiment is high at to blame RAW for much if not all the assorted ills of Pakistan but no foreign intelligence agency can hope to penetrate Pakistan in the manner that these beasts have managed.

As such, contributing to any efforts from Baluchistan to the TTP would achieve what incremental gains beyond the gulf and home-grown sympathizers for what risk and considerable cost to global good-will for India's $1.1B aid effort?

Makes so little sense as to avoid like the plague.

This is a muslim insurgency in both Afghanistan and Pakistan fueled by muslim donors globally (to include, likely, Indian muslims) but most notably in the G.C.C./KSA and within Pakistan.

There are "hidden hands" alright. Just not the usual suspects routinely traipsed out here.

A real Muslim will not support any insurgency what so ever, if it come to fighting we shall fight like our ancestors did, not by killing innocents, but by fighting a open field like PANIPAT and once we won we went into Delhi and ruled like real good rulers.

So these are not Muslims acts to kill innocents.

 

[anathema]

Your sentiments are appreciated but my instincts suggest that a muslim population of your size leaves room for these donations as a "likely" consideration.

I believe "likely" is the operative term and I'll not discount it yet despite your protestations to the contrary. Neither have I over-emphasized it's importance.

It is what it is- a consideration as might be the case with any muslim globally and with the financial means.

S2,

What are the chances that funding for talibs come from legit organisation's/charities...for example :- What if muslims all over the world are actually donating money to a noteworthy cause (like education , food aid , etc) & this money is routed from these charities to fuel insurgency all over the world....

Ofcourse all the legit org will leave a proper paper trail , however come to think of it they can pull this kind of stuff....

Just my 2 cents....

 

[EjazR]

Your sentiments are appreciated but my instincts suggest that a muslim population of your size leaves room for these donations as a "likely" consideration.

I believe "likely" is the operative term and I'll not discount it yet despite your protestations to the contrary. Neither have I over-emphasized it's importance.

It is what it is- a consideration as might be the case with any muslim globally and with the financial means.

I still think this is a far stretch. It is more likely that muslim diaspora/citizens living in countries like UK/US e.t.c are involved as they would have larger disposable incomes compared to Indian muslims. Although I still think that is very unlikely in this scenario as well. It is more likely that money spent on charities might have been diverted in the wrong direction.

However, I admit that it is quite possible some Indians who have settled in the gulf countries might get involved due to higher disposable incomes as well as the radical elements in arab society there influencing them. But native Indian muslims being involved in this is highly unlikely.

To consider muslims or any other religious or ethnic group as a monolith can result in misconceptions. One of the fundamental reasons IMO for this difference in Indian muslims is the way Indian ulemas have tackled political Islam (even before 9/11 and all) but that is a different discussion.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

S2,

What are the chances that funding for talibs come from legit organisation's/charities...for example :- What if muslims all over the world are actually donating money to a noteworthy cause (like education , food aid , etc) & this money is routed from these charities to fuel insurgency all over the world....

Ofcourse all the legit org will leave a proper paper trail , however come to think of it they can pull this kind of stuff....

Just my 2 cents....

Don’t be too naive.

This sort of thing has been going on for a while, using legitimate fronts and money sliding off to various terror type groups.
Once the paper trail gets ‘in-country’ it tends to vanish.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Alright - certain posts deleted/edited to get the discussion back on track.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Wall Street Journal has an interesting article on the Taliban's funding and it's much as S-2 has surmised-opium and donors- with an added kicker of legitimate businesses either owned by the taliban or from which the taliban are receiving kickbacks.

There's a hidden hand alright- in the gulf and among your own Pakistani sympathizers-

Taliban's Foreign Support Vexes U.S. - WSJ.com

"Pakistani Ambassador Hussein Haqqani said his government had frozen hundreds of bank accounts tied to the Taliban and other extremist groups and said the effort is a 'work in progress...

...The extremist networks continue to find new financing schemes and methods to evade law enforcement,' he said."

S-2 - i would like to point out that for a while this was ignored by many in the US media, fueled by the usual 'anonymous officials' and the finger of blame, for both the weapons and funding for the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan, was pointed at Pakistan and the ISI.

As such this shift in focusing on the real sources is welcome. Especially the focus on and understanding of the role of the drug and weapons trade out of Afghanistan in financing and arming the insurgencies in both nations, which hopefully your forces will be putting a dent in relatively soon, though I have my doubts, given the lack of plans (AFAIK) of developing either an alternate means of livelihood or disposing of the crop by providing an alternate buyer.

Gen. Athar Abbas on CNN today:

He claims many of the Taliban's arms are coming across the border from Afghanistan. I ask if that includes NATO weapons, as suggested in recent reports, and he agrees.

He says Washington is too focused on the safety of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal.

The United States should "stop worrying about the nukes and start worrying about the weapons lost in Afghanistan," he says.

A U.S. government report last month warned that the Pentagon did not have "complete records" for about one-third of the 242,000 weapons the United States had provided to the Afghan army, or for a further 135,000 weapons other countries sent.

The Afghan army "cannot fully safeguard and account for weapons," the Government Accountability Office found.

I ask how well armed the Taliban are, and he says they are "very well equipped from the border area."
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/27482-pakistan-army-spokesman-fights-media-war.html

Whatever the role of the donors in the Middle East, Pakistan and India, the fact remains that the source of weapons supplies to the Taliban is primarily Afghanistan, as are the drugs providing a large chunk of the funding, and the US/NATO have to do a lot to bring this under control.

 

[wtf]

Please avoid scapegoating Indian muslims until any involvement from them is shown. You might be aware that till date, no Indian muslim has ever been associated with the global jihadist type groups such as Al-Qaeda or found to be part of / supporting the Taleban in any way. This is DESPITE the fact that there are just under 200 million Indian muslims (almost 15% of the total world muslim population), far larger than individual Arab states populations.

Number of muslim in all Arab countries comprise about 20% of total muslim population. Compared to Arabs, a large proportion of Indian muslims have a far less standard of living. The only radicalization/terrorists attacks by some Indian muslims have been in response to religious strife and that too has been localized to within India alone. Even in Kashmir where some Kashmiri muslims have joined sepratists group, their attacks have been localised to within Kashmir. But this again has come down in recent years as the situation improves on the ground.

So please do keep in mind the under-representation of Indian muslims in Taleban and Al-Qaeda type organisations given that they constitute almost 15% of the global muslim population.

No Indian Muslim link with Al Qaida
Why no Indian Muslim is in Al-Qaeda?

There has been atleast one incident when an Indian Muslim attacked London Airport. The accused was raised in Saudi and lived in UK - both of which give the person significant disposable income.

2007 Glasgow International Airport attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Energon]

I don't see anything in this article that wasn't already known, being seriously investigated or strongly suspected with preliminary evidence. The only thing that has probably changed is the percentage breakdown of opium to foreign remittances; a figure that generally keeps changing from year to year.

The investigations in regards to the hawala system and the businesses and banks that support it is nothing new. It was initially promoted in the 80s to (among other things) facilitate funding for the Afghan war and then heavily researched and cracked down upon in the early 90s after it became a criminal free for all which even included the likes of AQ Khan and Dawood Ibrahim (who was one of the most prolific profiteers of this system, and probably still is).

There have been crackdowns from time to time which have even included some high profile names like the BCCI bank (and a rather colorful collaborator list with titles like Sheikh X and Sultan Y). Unfortunately the sheer market for these services in countries like Pakistan or Afghanistan that have deficient formal financial systems catering to its working class, and other countries like Iran and India which have prohibitive and restrictive financial laws rendering the riskly hawalas more viable an option, makes it impossible to eliminate the system altogether.

While this is undoubtedly the primary financial system supporting illicit trade and terrorism in the region, it is also the only mode of money transfer for millions of people who need it to survive. Obviously the ambiguous nature of the system makes it downright impossible to weed out the criminals from the helpless.

 

[S-2]

"the fact remains that the source of weapons supplies to the Taliban is primarily Afghanistan..."

There is no "fact" here just because your chief military spokesman ALLUDES to such. It is, therefore, allusion, and also heard/read by your minister of interior and others from time to time. Helps the locals digest this war better, don't you know.

Do these weapons contribute? Perhaps. More likely they may be used locally against our own forces as was the case with the Chivers article about recovered ammo in the Korengal.

The facts seem to suggest that Pakistan has its OWN considerable number of financial contributors, based upon Haqqani's comments. It also has a long-standing and FAMOUS illicit small-arms industry operating openly on your lands for years without policing. Further, you've utterly discounted the role that mideast private arms dealers, located in the gulf states near much of the donor money and with long-established networks of their own, in supplying such.

We haven't discounted such but that's your business how you care to see matters. I suggest that your military document the lot #'s of ammo captured and serial numbers of weapons and provide those to us if they wish.

I've seen nothing yet from your government about FACTS on this matter and certainly no independant confirmation of such so unsubstantiated allegations fits more closely.

I've indicated where I think much of the afghan opium travels to the gulf and it does so via Pakistan. You and I'll know more in this regard with the 2009 UNODC assessment as well as the next traffiking report from INTERPOL. I anticipate more opium/heroin than ever departing Afghanistan through your lands.

Networks, naturally, work both ways and so too arms dealers WRT to guns and drugs. They are perfectly positioned to take advantage of such and already are engaged in illicit transactions.

 

[asq]

S2,

What are the chances that funding for talibs come from legit organisation's/charities...for example :- What if muslims all over the world are actually donating money to a noteworthy cause (like education , food aid , etc) & this money is routed from these charities to fuel insurgency all over the world....

Ofcourse all the legit org will leave a proper paper trail , however come to think of it they can pull this kind of stuff....

Just my 2 cents....

Where there is a will, there is a way.

 

[asq]

"the fact remains that the source of weapons supplies to the Taliban is primarily Afghanistan..."

There is no "fact" here just because your chief military spokesman ALLUDES to such. It is, therefore, allusion, and also heard/read by your minister of interior and others from time to time. Helps the locals digest this war better, don't you know.

Do these weapons contribute? Perhaps. More likely they may be used locally against our own forces as was the case with the Chivers article about recovered ammo in the Korengal.

The facts seem to suggest that Pakistan has its OWN considerable number of financial contributors, based upon Haqqani's comments. It also has a long-standing and FAMOUS illicit small-arms industry operating openly on your lands for years without policing. Further, you've utterly discounted the role that mideast private arms dealers, located in the gulf states near much of the donor money and with long-established networks of their own, in supplying such.

We haven't discounted such but that's your business how you care to see matters. I suggest that your military document the lot #'s of ammo captured and serial numbers of weapons and provide those to us if they wish.

I've seen nothing yet from your government about FACTS on this matter and certainly no independant confirmation of such so unsubstantiated allegations fits more closely.

I've indicated where I think much of the afghan opium travels to the gulf and it does so via Pakistan. You and I'll know more in this regard with the 2009 UNODC assessment as well as the next traffiking report from INTERPOL. I anticipate more opium/heroin than ever departing Afghanistan through your lands.

Networks, naturally, work both ways and so too arms dealers WRT to guns and drugs. They are perfectly positioned to take advantage of such and already are engaged in illicit transactions.

We should do what U.S. did to rid all these Mafia and other underworld groups.

Infiltrate them, gather proof, take them to court, jail them for 100 years, that what they did with many mafia and other drug lords.