Takeaways for India from the Su-24 shoot down

[Bharat_Bhakt]

Rest assured even if there are kill switches they are not going to be activated against USA as we have seen sabres humiliating indian air forces in the past,,, :p

 

[Rafael]

Subhay Ho gayi hai Mammu Wake Up

Most of the mig29 with the serbia was inferiour and mostly without or faulty radars, without Awaac BVR and several times smaller in number. Most of the Mig 29 kills are with the name of F-15 with long range BVR and not f-16. Here is an asserts of the review of the german mig 29 which is also very old of 80's and not modern mig 29 smt.

This!!!

You acknowledge that serbian migs were inferior (i doubt it) and yet you lot compare PAF F-16s of 1999 with Indian Migs and SUs during the war. PAF was under sanctions, without spares, heavily outnumbered and without a BVR!

And yet no IAF jet was allowed to enter Pakistan's air space.

An achievement of sorts, dont you think?

 

[Paksanity]

so you Think Indians Dont Have Long Range BVRs and AWACS cover and if russian jets were so bad how come chinese who make more than 6 types of russian flanker clones still buying Su-35 and why just a few weeks back all pakistanies were singing such high praises of Su-35 or is it a case of sour grapes

Kill ratio of US aircraft vs Russian speaks for itself. Nobody in his right mind would deny that Russians make some good aircraft but in the end US win out. Wonder why?

 

[Bharat_Bhakt]

Kill ratio of US aircraft vs Russian speaks for itself. Nobody in his right mind would deny that Russians make some good aircraft but in the end US win out. Wonder why?

Cause they always fight with weaker nations with there latest and full strength Got it

 

[Paksanity]

still living in past oh wait we know how MIghty F-16s of PAF performed against puny Mig29s of IAF in 1999

This!!!

You acknowledge that serbian migs were inferior (i doubt it) and yet you lot compare PAF F-16s of 1999 with Indian Migs and SUs during the war. PAF was under sanctions, without spares, heavily outnumbered and without a BVR!

And yet no IAF jet was allowed to enter Pakistan's air space.

An achievement of sorts, dont you think?

Without a doubt Kargil was a golden moment for IAF. For the first time in their history they felt relatively safe INSIDE their own airspace. PAF wasn't that forgiving in earlier wars. No wonder they feel victorious by patrolling THEIR OWN airspace!

Cause they always fight with weaker nations with there latest and full strength Got it

Did you just call Russia a weak nation?!

 

[Bharat_Bhakt]

Without a doubt Kargil was a golden moment for IAF. For the first time in their history they felt relatively safe INSIDE their own airspace. PAF wasn't that forgiving in earlier wars. No wonder they feel victorious by patrolling THEIR OWN airspace!



Did you just call Russia a weak nation?!

When was the last time you saw Russian air force Mig29s or flankers fighting with USAFs F-16/F15sor XYZ current fighter platforms ?

 

[drunken-monke]

Non sense......
F16 is most successful dog fighter in modern history. Even if pair of Mig29 were there then still F16 have done the job. Mig29 is praised very highly but it yet to achieve a single aerial kill in it's 40+ year life span.......

F16 has not engaged any Mig29 of any modern and well trained air force. All engagements were with the poorly trained and ill equipped air-force. The Jolt Mig29 gave to f16 pilot in 1999 was enough to send shivers through the spines of PAF pilots..

 

[Tipu7]

F16 has not engaged any Mig29 of any modern and well trained air force. All engagements were with the poorly trained and ill equipped air-force. The Jolt Mig29 gave to f16 pilot in 1999 was enough to send shivers through the spines of PAF pilots..

Iraqi Pilots who flew were war veterans, most of them have scored kills in Iraq Iran war.
Also Yugoslavia pilots were also trained by Russians. They were pretty good, even better than Polish pilots. But still Mig29 knocked out.
I will not mention African case here.

As per your knowledge, PAF F16 Blk15 have intercepted and locked on Su30 MKI twice,...... it also sent pretty good message to IAF back then

 

[Paksanity]

When was the last time you saw Russian air force Mig29s or flankers fighting with USAFs F-16/F15sor XYZ current fighter platforms ?

Serbia fully supported by Russia in war.

F16 has not engaged any Mig29 of any modern and well trained air force. All engagements were with the poorly trained and ill equipped air-force. The Jolt Mig29 gave to f16 pilot in 1999 was enough to send shivers through the spines of PAF pilots..

They gave jolts and shivers by flying INSIDE their own airspace? Wow... Just WOW!

 

[knight11]

F-15 and F-16 use same air to air armament ; AIM-120, AIM-9 and same gun. Serbian MiG-29s were not without BVR. Pakistani F-16s were without BVR in Kargil yet IAF wouldn't dare to cross into our airspace.

Again, let me elaborate it for your ease. F-16s when armed with its full air to air compliment (AIM-120 and AWACS) will rip MiG-29 and Su-30 like a toilet paper when in the hands of right pilot. There is a reason Russian aircraft fall like flies whenever they meet US air power in every conflict of modern history.

F-15 is the Air superiority fighter plane with superior Radar then F-16, they can shoot the fighter plane from long strandoff distance. Also the AIM 120c7 is far more superior than AIM 120c-5.

The MiG 29 fleet of the Yugoslav Air Force was not in optimal state, due to lack of spare parts and maintenance. The NATO air forces on the other hand were well maintained from their bases in Italy.NATO pilots have better training, better equipment, better everything, more money, more fans, more everything. Yugoslavia just could not compete. In any dogfight, the pilots are the biggest factor. Even if armed with less advanced fighters, the quality of the NATO pilots would have given their team the decisive advantage.

The MiG29 itself is also a more agile aircraft than the American F15C or F15D and, skill for skill, could out-manoeuvre the US jet. The F16, on the other hand, matches the MiG29 for versatility. However, the MiG29 pilots will have had no combat experience, and although on paper the Yugoslav pilots were flying one of the best aircraft to come out of Russia, (The MiG29 is the most potent fighter aircraft in the Yugoslav Air Force. It is armed with two air-to-air missiles, the AA11 Archer, which has a range of about 10 kilometres, and the 50-60 kilometre-range AA10 Alamo) the reality of war provides the ultimate test for both flying machine and its flier.

The pilot who spots his opponent first has the advantage, but in night dogfight the Nato aircraft had one distinct advantage: they had Awacs early-warning aircraft monitoring the movement of fighters. The MiG29s were spotted as soon as they took off and Nato aircraft were given precise details. There was never much doubt that Nato would come out the winner.

 

[Battle Axe]

Cause they always fight with weaker nations with there latest and full strength Got it

Rest of the discussion aside, I'll totally agree on this one. It's a shame for world's so called super power to mostly fight against poorly armed folk like Vietnam, Gulf, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq and now the Syria fascination.

 

[sankranti]

Takeaways for India from the Su-24 shoot down | Russia & India Report

The primary takeaway for the Indian military from the shoot down of the Russian Su-24 is this: next time there’s a conflict, carry a big stick.

During the 1999 Kargil War India committed the blunder of not using overwhelming force early on. The result was that a military helicopter and a ground attack jet were brought down by shoulder fired missiles. One of the pilots who ejected was mercilessly tortured to death by his Pakistani Army captors. This is a reality of wars – POWs are not likely to be given the Geneva Convention treatment.

Fast forward to 2016. The Russian Air Force has hundreds of combat assets. For the air dominance role alone, it has 359 Su-27 air superiority fighters, 291 MiG-29 multirole jets, 55 Su-30 multirole warplanes and around 48 Su-35 fighter-bombers.

And yet when they decided to strike at ISIS and other US-backed terror groups in Syria, the Russians despatched only a handful of Su-27s and Su-30s to provide top cover for their ground attacks jets. All the high-octane gear mentioned above was thousands of kilometres away from the Middle East cauldron. Incredibly, the Su-34s were not even equipped with air-to-air missiles. Clearly, the Russians underestimated NATO’s ability to “stab in the back”.

Turkey exploited this window of weakness and ambushed the Su-24 by using information – most likely provided by the Americans – about the jet’s flight paths. This was information that the Russian Air Force had provided the US Air Force in advance in order to avoid accidents.

The Turkish F-16s would not have dared to attack the Russian aircraft had there been enough Sukhois or MiGs patrolling over the battle zone. For, the F-16 Falcon cannot survive an encounter with an Su-30 Flanker or MiG-29 Fulcrum. While the F-16 has a service ceiling of 50,000 ft, both the Flanker and Fulcrum can cruise at nearly 60,000 ft, and are armed with much better air-to-air Vympel missiles. Also, the MiG-29 can climb a lot faster than an F-16, leaving the American jet panting for breath in a dogfight.

The potency of Russian fighter jets was proved during the Kargil War when Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16s fled the battle zone the moment Indian Air Force (IAF) MiG-29s achieved missile lock on them. In the report ‘Airpower at 18,000 feet: IAF in the Kargil War’ published by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Benjamin Lambeth says that because IAF MiG-29s were airborne on combat air patrol, PAF F-16s to the west typically maintained a safe distance of 16-32 km on the Pakistani side of the border.

According to Strategy Page, “Analyses by Pakistani experts revealed that when the rubber met the road, the PAF simply refused to play any part in support of the Pakistan Army, angering the latter. While PAF fighters did fly combat air patrols during the conflict, they stayed well within Pakistani air space. On occasions, IAF MiG-29s armed with the deadly R-77 beyond visual range air-to-air missiles were able to lock on to PAF F-16s, forcing the latter to disengage.”

In an eerie similarity to Kargil 1999, the Russian pilots who ejected over Syria were shot at by pro-Turkey terrorists from the ground, leading to the death of one of them. That the surviving pilot escaped a horrible death was solely because of the Syrian Army, which led a daring rescue operation into terrorist infested territory.

If you have force, don’t hold back

Sun Tzu, the sixth century CE Chinese strategist, wrote in the Art of Warthat overwhelming superiority is a must before you attack the enemy. Bravery, while a desirable quality, is not something one should rely on to win battles. That would be utter foolishness. “He wins his battles by making no mistakes,” writes Sun Tzu. “Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated.”

When the mighty Russian Army (Red Army) reached the outskirts of Berlin in April 1945, Germany was already defeated and the US and Russia had already decided the new map of Europe. But that didn’t mean the Russians took it easy.

Here’s what General Georgy Zhukov threw at the Germans during the final Battle of Berlin: 6,250 tanks and self-propelled guns, 7,500 aircraft and 41,600 artillery pieces. The Germans had nothing to match these numbers but Zhukov took no chances. The result was a quick victory that quickly destroyed the resolve of the Germans and prevented the entire city from falling into the hands of the Americans, which was what the German high command wanted. It’s perplexing why modern day Russian generals did not follow the time-tested strategy of deploying maximum firepower against the enemy.

Russia has since upped the quantum of forces involved in the war in Syria. More Su-27s and Su-30s have been despatched to the battlefield theatre to provide top cover to Russian ground attack jets along with strategic bombers that were built to strike at hardened NATO targets. As you can imagine, these large bombers are showing ISIS and the American-backed terror groups a glimpse of hell.

The Su-34 multirole jets have also been equipped with both short and medium-range air-to-air missiles capable of hitting targets within a 60 km range, said Russian Aerospace Forces Colonel Igor Klimov. This marks the first time the planes will carry such weaponry in the Russian anti-terror campaign in Syria.

More ominously, the S-400 Triumf missile has been despatched to the region, with the system now tracking the skies from both land and the sea (via the battle cruiser Moskva). The dreaded S-400 is a key part of Russia's anti-aircraft defence and the entire system can be set up for use in five to 10 minutes. It has a maximum range of 400 km, bringing most of southern Turkey within range of Russian fire.

The upshot of all this enhanced Russian airpower: Turkey has cancelled its military flights in Syria.

India’s options

Hopefully, India’s military is paying heed. If or when India goes to war, whether against Pakistan or any other country, it should have sufficient assets in the air so that its ground attack jets won’t be ambushed. For, what use is having the world’s fourth largest army and air force if you cannot stun the enemy with the first blow? Why wait for battle attrition and loss of lives before you decide to bring in the heavy cavalry? It’s counter-intuitive and yet India acted with reserve initially in Kargil as did Russia in Syria.

Over the next five years, India is set to spend more than $100 billion on modernising and expanding its armed forces. Some of the new weapons platforms are truly scary – nuclear attack submarines, ICBMs, IRBMs, SLBMs, cruise missiles and hundreds of artillery pieces. With this kind of high-octane hardware, New Delhi should finally shed its historic reticence and attack with disproportionate force early on in any future conflict.

EXCELLENT Article.

Always attack First and Always attack with Full Force.

IF you fight, Fight TO WIN. Else DON"T Fight, seek compromise.

Final lesson, NEVER Trust anyone completely and always have plan B.

 

[Paksanity]

F-15 is the Air superiority fighter plane with superior Radar then F-16, they can shoot the fighter plane from long strandoff distance. Also the AIM 120c7 is far more superior than AIM 120c-5.

The MiG 29 fleet of the Yugoslav Air Force was not in optimal state, due to lack of spare parts and maintenance. The NATO air forces on the other hand were well maintained from their bases in Italy.NATO pilots have better training, better equipment, better everything, more money, more fans, more everything. Yugoslavia just could not compete. In any dogfight, the pilots are the biggest factor. Even if armed with less advanced fighters, the quality of the NATO pilots would have given their team the decisive advantage.

The MiG29 itself is also a more agile aircraft than the American F15C or F15D and, skill for skill, could out-manoeuvre the US jet. The F16, on the other hand, matches the MiG29 for versatility. However, the MiG29 pilots will have had no combat experience, and although on paper the Yugoslav pilots were flying one of the best aircraft to come out of Russia, (The MiG29 is the most potent fighter aircraft in the Yugoslav Air Force. It is armed with two air-to-air missiles, the AA11 Archer, which has a range of about 10 kilometres, and the 50-60 kilometre-range AA10 Alamo) the reality of war provides the ultimate test for both flying machine and its flier.

The pilot who spots his opponent first has the advantage, but in Wednesday's night dogfight the Nato aircraft had one distinct advantage: they had Awacs early-warning aircraft monitoring the movement of fighters. The MiG29s were spotted as soon as they took off and Nato aircraft were given precise details. There was never much doubt that Nato would come out the winner.

With so many NATO aircraft flying, the mighty MiG-29 (all hail), the best thing to roll out of Russia could not score a single repeat a SINGLE air to air kill? All Serbian pilots were just dumb fools and all NATO pilots were super aces?!

 

[knight11]

Again, let me elaborate it for your ease. F-16s when armed with its full air to air compliment (AIM-120 and AWACS) will rip MiG-29 and Su-30 like a toilet paper when in the hands of right pilot. There is a reason Russian aircraft fall like flies whenever they meet US air power in every conflict of modern history.

Living in dodoland open your eyes and think rationally. Su 30 MKI and MIG 29UPG both are Air superiority fighter plane. If you are comparing PAF-f-16 block 52, then there is no chance.

Reasons :
1. The number of F-16 block 52 is nominal.
2. Su 30MKI or the Raffale have OLS on their nose, during the dact exercise IAF Mig29UPG was killed even before it could detect MKI. This is for your some of countrymen EXPERTS who live in the illusion of who will detect whom first formulla. MKI's PESA radar could work on Passive Mode also, and distribute its MMR imagainary to 6 MIG 29UPG and even give fuel using its budy budy refuel tank. And for the RANGE tell those experts that the Range of BVR is far more when fired from hight Altitute of the Air superirity fighter planes and the speed of the launching aircraft.
3. Your AWAAC bases would be targeted using strandoff long range Air launch cruise missiles, and with the event of S-400 you have to hide AWAAC deep inside Pakistani territory.
4. Air Superiority is not the only things that is important. Indian inventory is far more superior, which the role based expert fighter planes e.g Jaguar UPG for deep strike, ground attack with nav attack., Mirrage 2000 UPG for multirole, and Mig 21Bison for Interseption. MKI and MIG 29UPG for Air Superiority.
5. IAF have far more experience in BVR tactics, they practice more, and have wide array of BVR including R-77, R-63, MICA IR/RF, Derby and have helmet Cued hight bore sight WVR far more superior like R-73, Python-5.

 

[Bharat_Bhakt]

Serbia fully supported by Russia in war.


They gave jolts and shivers by flying INSIDE their own airspace? Wow... Just WOW!

You Sure wasnt Russia part of UN at that time ... oh wait Serbian Defence minister told you that fact or was it russian defence minister