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Taimur: Pakistan's ICBM?

The problem with sub-sonic Cruise missiles is that they are slow,carry less payload,and can be shot down by SAMs or enemy fighters if detected...
Cruise missiles can evade radar detection and are deadly accurate. They are not easy to shoot down either because they can be equipped with counter measures against suppressive fire.

They can also be armed with nuclear warheads. They can also be equipped with multiple strike mechanisms and not just a single warhead.

Cruise missiles are a weapon of choice for modern military forces.

See the success level of American Tomahawks vis-a-vis Iraqi Scuds.

Ballistic missiles are good for large ground targets only, since they are less accurate.

Watch this video:

YouTube - BGM-109 Tomahawk Land Attack Missile (TLAM)
 
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one thing i don't understand about indians!

they claim:

1) PAKISTAN MADE NUCLEAR WEAPONS WITH THE HELP OF CHINA

2) PAKISTAN MADE MISSILES WITH THE HELP OF CHINA!


now reality that the world agrees to is the following:

1) Paksitan "STOLE" the blue prints of a nuclear weapon from AMSTERDAM a famous man called "A.Q. KHAN" brough them to pakistan

2) Pakistan used a tomahawk missile that by mistake landed in pakistan....reverse engineered it and made its cruise missiles

3) Pakistan used N.KOREAN help to make its missile systems!

4) pakistan modifed the Harpoon missiles

NOW WHERE IN SUCH STATEMENTS DOES THE WORLD MENTION CHINA???? AND YET INDIANS KEEP CRYING AND BRINGING IN CHINA & CHINESE HELP!
 
NOW WHERE IN SUCH STATEMENTS DOES THE WORLD MENTION CHINA???? AND YET INDIANS KEEP CRYING AND BRINGING IN CHINA & CHINESE HELP!


If you are referring me,I'm a patriotic Pakistani...
 
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Cruise missiles can evade radar detection and are deadly accurate. They are not easy to shoot down either because they can be equipped with counter measures against suppressive fire.

I was talking about infra-red homing MANPADS and enemy fighter aircrafts which, may be,are present in the vicinity...
 
It really doesn't matter if we begged, borrowed or stole foreign designs to make our nukes and missiles.

The point is that we now have the knowledge to enhance them and make our own from scratch. Nobody rediscovers science from basic principles -- we all go to school. It's just that our school happened to be in Beijing.
 
one thing i don't understand about indians!

they claim:

1) PAKISTAN MADE NUCLEAR WEAPONS WITH THE HELP OF CHINA

2) PAKISTAN MADE MISSILES WITH THE HELP OF CHINA!


now reality that the world agrees to is the following:

1) Paksitan "STOLE" the blue prints of a nuclear weapon from AMSTERDAM a famous man called "A.Q. KHAN" brough them to pakistan

2) Pakistan used a tomahawk missile that by mistake landed in pakistan....reverse engineered it and made its cruise missiles

3) Pakistan used N.KOREAN help to make its missile systems!

4) pakistan modifed the Harpoon missiles

NOW WHERE IN SUCH STATEMENTS DOES THE WORLD MENTION CHINA???? AND YET INDIANS KEEP CRYING AND BRINGING IN CHINA & CHINESE HELP!

Here's the answer
International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Pakistan’s Long Range Ballistic Missiles: A View From IDEAS

Pakistan’s Long Range Ballistic Missiles: A View From IDEAS


by Richard Fisher, Jr.
Published on November 1st, 2004
ARMS SHOW REPORTS

With the October 11 test firing of its Ghauri (Hatf 5), the Pakistan Army Strategic Forces Command within about a year has test-launched all of its major ballistic missiles.[1] Although exact production numbers for its major missiles have not been revealed, the latest launch cycle confirms that Pakistan has in place a two-tiered missile force based on short-range (SRBMs) and medium-range ballistic missiles (MRBMs). For Islamabad, its nuclear capable missiles are the ultimate deterrent to its larger and long-feared neighbor India. Pakistan has also used the threat of nuclear attack to deter a conventional Indian attack.[2] Pakistan also enjoys status within the Islamic world for being its only nuclear missile-armed member.

New information on Pakistan’s missiles came to light recently, during the September 14-17 International Defense Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) in Karachi, the third such arms exhibition. In fact, the Pakistan Army Strategic Forces Command has used the all of the IDEAS shows to display its nuclear capable missiles. This year’s show, however, was the sole opportunity, given that their appearance had been canceled-on the basis of security concerns-for the usual Republic Day military parade. The solid-fueled Ghaznavi and longer range Shaheen 1 and Shaheen 2 missiles are all widely reported to be based on either Chinese missiles or missile technology. The Ghauri is widely reported to be based on the North Korean liquid-fueled Nodong missile. The Strategic Forces Command did not entertain questions about these missiles, but did offer a video that both summarized previously released missile test footage and provided new information.

High Accuracy

One useful new data point was that the Chinese-source missiles were capable of very high accuracy. Published reports have noted that Pakistan’s Shaheen 1, Shaheen 2 and Ghaznavi missiles may have a post-separation booster system to provide course corrections to improve accuracy, or maneuver capability for evading missile defenses. The video confirmed that there is such a system. It was at the Zhuhai Airshow in 1996 that a Chinese source inadvertently disclosed that China was developing a terminal and satellite-navigation-assisted guidance system for its short- to medium-range missiles. The PLA also developed a post-separation warhead attitude correction system for its DF-15 short-range missile. This consists of small thrusters that can adjust the warhead trajectory for greater accuracy or for out-foxing early U.S. Patriot PAC-2 interceptors. This system very likely is also on the DF-11 Mod 1 SRBM.


Shaheen 2 Warhead Stage: May use a post-separation course correction system that enables very high accuracy. Photo: RD Fisher


If Pakistan’s missiles are so equipped, the prospect of their not requiring nuclear warheads to achieve "strategic" results against military targets is more likely. While this might be slightly comforting to some, the capability might also increase the temptation to use such missiles, inasmuch as Pakistani leaders might view their use as carrying a diminished risk of Indian nuclear retaliation.


Possible antennae on a Shaheen-1 warhead stage: The black patches near the small stabilizing fins may be antennae intended to service very accurate satellite navigation systems. Photo: RD Fisher

However, such a terminal guidance capability would also require a sophisticated targeting system capable of providing real-time image or electronic target location data to missile commanders. Pakistan will soon have short-range unmanned reconnaissance aircraft capable of supplying such data. Pakistan can be assumed to be a consumer of commercially available high-resolution satellite imagery. And when China soon launches its constellation of 1-meter or better resolution Russian-influenced electro-optical and radar image satellites, it is a safe assumption that Pakistan will gain useful access to their data. The irony here is that Indian space officials have disclosed that China had offered India the opportunity to invest in this satellite constellation.[3] India wisely refused, because its investment might have amounted to a "subsidy" benefiting China’s and Pakistan’s missile targeting capabilities.


China’s Future HJ-1 and HJ-1C reconnaissance satellites: These Russian influenced satellites are due to be launched soon, and could provide Pakistan with all-weather 1-meter imagery. India wisely chose not to participate in this program.Photo: RD Fisher

Warheads

All of the SRBMs and MRBMs on display at IDEAS were said to be capable of carrying nuclear and non-nuclear warheads. Pakistan’s capability to build small plutonium warheads is widely reported to have developed thanks to the assistance of the PRC. China is very likely the source for a range of non-nuclear warheads for the Shaheen 2, Shaheen 1 and Ghaznavi missiles. For its DF-11 Mod 1 SRBM, China is reported to have developed high-explosive cluster warheads, which use a large number of small warheads for attacking soft targets, and thermobaric warheads, which destroy by producing fantastic heat and pressure. And according to a U.S. source, Pakistan is a suspected recipient for new Chinese radio-frequency (RF) missile warheads.[4] These can produce a large electromagnetic pulse via a conventional explosion and are used to attack electronic infrastructure.

Shaheen 2. Pakistan’s largest and most capable ballistic missile is the two-stage Shaheen 2, or Hatf 6, reported by the U.S. intelligence community to have been developed with China’s assistance. To date, this missile has no publicly identified counterpart in the Chinese missile arsenal, but one possibility might be the DF-25, a reported two-stage 1,700-2,500km range solid-fuel missile. Revealed during the 2000 Republic Day parade, it was not launched for the first time until March 9, 2004. Before that it had been displayed with two sets of guidance fins for each stage. But the missile tested in March, and the one displayed at IDEAS, had no fins at the second stage. Pakistani placards stated its range is 2,000km, but other sources note that this might be extended to 2,500km with a lighter warhead.[5] While published sources give this missile an accuracy measured in circular error probability (CEP) of 350m,[6] a Pakistani video claims it is capable of "surgical precision." This may indicate that it incorporates a warhead post-separation correction system and/or a satellite navigation update system, which may indicate a CEP of much less than 300m. Reports also indicate there may be a 4,000km range Shaheen 3 in development that would also serve as a space launch vehicle.[7]



Shaheen 2


Range:

2000km
Weight:

15,000kg
Re-entry vehicle Weight:

1,000kg
Warheads:

Nuclear, HE
Tech Source:

China



Photo: RD Fisher



Shaheen 1.
First revealed in 1999, the Shaheen 1, or Hatf 4, also has no known Chinese equivalent, but its Chinese origins are more apparent than the Shaheen 2. The nose section is very clearly a copy of that seen on the Chinese DF-11 Mod 1 missile first revealed in their October 1999 military parade. But the Shaheen 1 is longer and, at 750km, has a longer range than the 300-500km of the Chinese missile. The warhead stage has what a Pakistani video calls a "post-separation attitude correction system," meaning that the Shaheen-1 is capable of high accuracy and some degree of maneuvering to evade missile defenses. In addition, both the Shaheen I and its relation, the Ghaznavi, employ stealthy warhead shaping to delay detection and complicate targeting.



Shaheen 1


Range:

750km
Weight:

9,500kg
Warhead Weight:

850kg
Warheads:

Nuclear, HE
Tech Source:

China



Photo: RD Fisher



Ghaznavi. The latest Pakistani missile is the Ghaznavi, or Hatf 3, which was formally adopted by the Strategic Forces Command on February 22, 2004. This appears to be an exact copy of the latest version of the DF-11 Mod 1. Like more recent versions of the Chinese missile, the Ghaznavi employs an "aerospike" on the tip of the nose cone. This serves to push away air, creating less aerodynamic drag for the remainder of the missile, and is useful for extending the range of the missile if it employed a "depressed trajectory" or low altitude flight profile, where denser air would create more drag. It is also suspected of using a "depressed trajectory" to evade missile defenses. A Pakistani video also notes that this missile uses a "post-separation attitude correction system" to ensure accuracy. It also features flat antenna arrays near the warhead stage, all indications that it uses highly accurate satellite navigation assisted guidance systems. And, like the DF-11 Mod 1, the Ghaznavi very likely uses a range of warheads, including nuclear, high explosives, cluster munitions, thermobaric and RF.


Ghaznavi


Range:

290km
Weight:

5,256kg
Warheads:

Nuclear, HE, Cluster, Thermobaric, Radio Frequency
Tech Source:

China



Photo: RD Fisher


Ghauri 2
. Also on display was the Ghauri, or Hatf 5, widely reported to be based on North Korea’s Nodong liquid fueled missile. It has a range of 1,500km that it can cover in about 10 minutes. It is said to be armed with nuclear and high explosive warheads. But, being liquid fueled, it does not have the rapid response capability of solid-fueled missiles. The need to spend considerable time fueling Ghauri makes it vulnerable. There are reports of a Ghauri 3 in development, a two-stage liquid fuel missile with a range of 3,500km.[8] This program may benefit from North Korea’s Russian technology derived Makeyev R-27-based MRBMs.
 
It really doesn't matter if we begged, borrowed or stole foreign designs to make our nukes and missiles.

The point is that we now have the knowledge to enhance them and make our own from scratch. Nobody rediscovers science from basic principles -- we all go to school. It's just that our school happened to be in Beijing.

Now that is what I'm talking about.....brilliant expression from Developereo...thank you.:smitten:
 
It really doesn't matter if we begged, borrowed or stole foreign designs to make our nukes and missiles.

The point is that we now have the knowledge to enhance them and make our own from scratch. Nobody rediscovers science from basic principles -- we all go to school. It's just that our school happened to be in Beijing.

Every thing is justified in war and love .
 
Cruise Missiles are considerably better for conventional roles. We need long range Cruise Missiles.

Yes increase babur range launching platform like this -

CJ-10_naval.jpg
 
I have one basic question. Why Pakistan don't have a parallel satellite rocket launching system ?. Almost all countries who possess a ballistic missile have some type of satellite launching system too. Even Iran and North Korea has one.

I don't understand why Pakistan still can't create a satellite launching system even after dealing with missile technologies for more than 2 decades.

Becoz we are extremely short of finances and can't give any attention to the space related programs. Primary concern is to have a nuke delivery system in place and make it as much better as we can.

We don't make satellites and nor have we the potential to launch satellites of others in such tight & already dominated market, and i can assure you, we would not have gotten any business too from other countries as there is no selling skills with us and the strategic value with others.

The day, we start having enough money, you will see a space program too, but our planners lack the vision and neglected the space program, evident from the number of satellites we have leaving aside having any launching capability.

Take the example of Britain, do they have their own ballistic missiles even though they have the infrastructure to develop had they wanted, or look at their own space launching capability or the past endeavors in this field. Read up about the British and may be you can have an idea that even if you can do something, its not feasible or due to certain reasons you just can't jump everywhere.

By the way, good attempt at a cheap shot, but you need a better understanding how such strategic decisions are done.

Let me help you, read about the British Black Arrow program, may be you get an understanding.
 
Apart from Nonsense let me enlighten you that the most missiles which failed are experimental missiles which are tested to see new parameters. Be it 100 years old Technology or 60 years or the latest. testing with new equipments is must!! When a missile fails both success climb and failure is noted and thoroughly studied. Plus we are not satisfied with what we have since we have no intentions to be Pakistan Centric we have already overcome that. And if we have to be Pakistani centric we have enough man power to keep an eye on you. :cheers:

Good rubbish and nonsense to cover up the blunders, but thanks for the effort, we already know what fails when and how many times. Keep the nonsense BS to Indian audience to satisfy the egos.

And i believe we are not discussing about who is being how much centric about whom. We all know the answer to that.

Why I said your missiles are stolen or bought from China because only one country in the world have had a compact Ballistic Missiles before making an SLV. Which is not Possible.
To make Ballistic Missile of Intermediate range with RV you should have good understanding of how satellites are thrown into orbit once that is achieved then the work goes on to develop an RV which is a very very later stage.

Just Like Iran is doing experiments sending launch vehicles building satellites to develop an ICBM or IRBM or North Korea with T-1. In fact they have launched their satellite. Things work in a system.[/QUOTE]

Well i am not sure that what you meant by the above two paras, but if am right you meant to say that for ICBM you need to know the know how of warhead separation from the main body of the missile, as either in ICBM or IRBM there is reentry of warhead after separation from the main body, and that know how can be used in making SLV, for separation of satellites.

If am correct with what you meant, then let me notify you, that Pakistan does know the know how of warhead separation and uses warhead separation as well as post separation correction system in its warheads, thus if it wants, it can easily make an IRBM or ICBM as it has no problems in warhead separation or RV sections of missiles and when & if Pakistan wants to go for SLV, it can easily do that, provided we have the money to research and carry on such expensive program, but its hard for us to spare money for such things right now.
 
Brother,you cannot ignore the facts.....Develop such advanced systems within such a short time interval (1995-2005) is exemplary,and leads us to the conclusion...Foreign Assistance...

After all,not every thing comes up on the internet...

Russians made the Scud....Chines made the M-11 out of it...and Pakistanis modified it to an even better standard...Ghaznavi,which is equipped with terminal guidance system and improvised warhead assembly...

Other missiles are improved versions of the Chinese systems...

I'm not implying that Pakistan did a wrong thing...everybody does it when their lives are at stake..and I'm proud of it...Its just that we should not OVER-ESTIMATE ourselves by saying that we have developed everything by ourselves,and saying that we are developing ICBMs...

First of all, we like others don't deny the fact that we got assistance from China, its a fact nor am I challenging that.

Issue is just like how you are towing the Indian members line, that each missile we have is a copy or taken from the Chinese or North Koreans. That is your as well as others misconception and sheer stupidity i must say.

We got the tech from them, the know how and assistance, but after that, we are now doing our own research and making our own missiles. Examples are Babur, Ra'ad or you can even check out the earlier Shaheen II and current Shaheen II missiles, which can clearly tell that we are making our own missiles based on our research and are not exact copies of Chinese tech or given by the Chinese.

Here compare these two Shaeen II missiles and see the difference yourself.

pakistan-nuclear-006.jpg


Shaheen2_PakistaniDefence_com_006.jpg


Saw any difference ?? Does that not tell you that we are doing our own research and making missiles as we deem fit after we got the initial know how about missiles from the Chinese ??? Hope you are not that blind as our neighbors are.

Here let me give you another example, look at the earlier Shaheen 1 missile and compared it to the latest picture from the latest test of Shaheen 1 missile, look at the top of the missile, the warhead section and hopefully you can see the difference between the shapes.

Earlier Shaheen 1:

shah.jpg


And the latest pic of the Shaheen 1 (enlarge to see it clearly):

1942.jpg



I hope the above examples as well as the Babur and Ra'ad CMs are more then enough to tell you and shut the mouths of some others that we are making our own missiles, through our own research, after having gotten the tech and know how from the Chinese.

Still if someone has an issue, God help him or should i say gods help them to understand as hatred is something which makes you not see the reality.
 
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