T-84 oplot M fails testing what now for the army, in terms of tanks?

[Mustang06]

What a beast!
Congrats!!

 

[VelocuR]

So your conclusion is based on the idea that the cash strapped ukranian military which cannot maintain its otherwise excellent fleet somehow reflects on the overall quality of their tanks?

That is like suggesting that somehow the hundreds of ferraris, lambos, mercs and bmws that were abandoned in Dubai after the crash of their real estate market and ended up as junk somehow reflects on Ferrari, BMW and Mercedes as makers of poor quality cars.

Please refrain from commenting before you actually read on the subject.

Point taken, I rather Pakistan should choose Russian tanks than Ukraine. Why is that? Basically Pakistan should work closer with Russia in defence cooperation. I know we have imported some of tanks technology from Ukraine in the past but I would be thrilled Russia would sell T-90MS to Pakistan.

Russia has tried their best selling, T-90MS has everything Pakistan is looking more than T-84 Oplot features. Otherwise India would be fortunate to grab this tank that will likely to chase T-84 Oplot all nights and morning. Game over!

Look like Pakistan decide not to choose MBT-3000 from China, it also means, MBT-2000 via Al-Khalid is totally failures, obviously 450 of 13 years. That's my opinion no worry.

 

[black-hawk_101]

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The oplot M has been considerd over the MBT 3000. It is official that Pakistan will not pursue the MB-3000

Certain change will be made.Allow me to further explain. The Ukrainians have offered the tank a standard version.

Our demand

Or

Plus Demand of local manufacturing of spare parts.

When I say local yes I say with confidance that we have demanded that 60% of the components be made in Pakistan.

So after AKII army will be producing t84s.

You expect a link this early. Please the reason I uploaded the above picss are because they have overcome the trials In Bhawalpur. The MBT-3000 failed. Plus order from above not to encourage chinese at all.

PA has chance to sell AK1s to BDs and even the AK2 prototype which is another Chinese version to BDs.

 

[Donatello]

@Oscar @Dazzler
Does this mean the MBT3000 is not in the running anymore?
How many T-84s is Pakistan expected to procure and are they replacements for T-80s or addition to the existing tank stocks?
Seems like a lot of tank types will be in service.

 

[Shabi1]

Here's what I understand

The T-80/84 series has been generally superior to the T-90 series in armor and performance. T-90 (T-72 and T80 cross) was developed because T-80 was too expensive to induct and the T-80 manufacturing was in Ukraine. Russia incorporated some T-80 features on the T-72 and rebranded it T-90 as a marketing gimmick instead of using the T-72 upgrade designation. After parting with Soviet Union, Ukrains 100% locally made tanks were designated T-80UD/T-84

Al-Khalid is a great tank and Pakistan looking for another alternative doesnt undermine it. Al-Khalid-2 was supposed to be a newly designed tank but seems PA has decided to look for a alternative because of design limitations and save development time. Al-Khalid 1 project will likely continue with upgrades, its still one hell of a tank.

MBT-3000 was a modernized tank developed for export but with some corner cuts to make it more attractive for export. Design is likely very similar to what HIT was working for Al-Khalid-2, even if selected will need heavy modifications to meet Pakistan requirements. Pakistan prefers Ukrainian engines since they've proven time and again to give excellent performance in Pakistan's hot deserts.

Which ever tank is selected will get the Al-Haider designation since it will be heavily customized and get eventual local manufacturing.

 

[waz]

Why we should buy an expensive Turk tank and not 2 Ukrainians ones?

Expense isn't an issue and the price range is broadly comparable I.e. around 5.5 million dollars.
The second reason is quality. The Altay is far superior to anything the Ukranians have, there are quite a few detailed write ups on tank forums, written by current and ex tankers outlining this. The L-55 gun on the Altay, which is also operational on the newest Leopards 2's should be reason enough to go for this tank.
Thirdly Turkey is the cloeset ally we have, bar China and we shouldn't have any issues with transfer of tech, supplies etc.
As others have mentioned this tank may be a replacement for part of the fleet, not all of it. Yes the budget is important but going to war on the cheap is a disaster, that will result in deaths and losses in the battle field. It's the age of tech.

 

[Spectre]

Here's what I understand

The T-80/84 series has been generally superior to the T-90 series in armor and performance. T-90 (T-72 and T80 cross) was developed because T-80 was too expensive to induct and the T-80 manufacturing was in Ukraine. Russia incorporated some T-80 features on the T-72 and rebranded it T-90 as a marketing gimmick instead of using the T-72 upgrade designation. After parting with Soviet Union, Ukrains 100% locally made tanks were designated T-80UD/T-84.

Your comments are unwarranted. Both the tanks had different mission profiles.

This is a second hand information, may be some more knowledgeable members would be able to verify it.

The T-64-> T-80 evolution is like a lot of things Russian, an outgrowth of Russian military politics as well as Red Army tradition. The Russians back when they were the Soviets had TWO complimentary tank design bureaus and two design requirements. The Leningrad crowd specialized in complex "breakthrough" tanks while the Uralvagonzavod designed the line of simple "cruiser" attrition warfare tanks.

The result is that we have two tanks that share a lot of superficial features but designed for ostensibly very different missions. As is the trend of the T-34>T-55>T-62>T-72 which is a throwaway tank-designed mainly for general comb and mainly infantry support, the T-80 traces its lineage to a redesign for a a tank that was to fill the operations niche left by the IS and T-10 series of heavy assault tanks.

The T-90 is the improved variant of the '80 once again with most of the bugs ironed out.

That is the basic difference between the two T series tanks, as to which is better, that depends solely upon the crews within the mbt and how well they are drilled.

 

[Inception-06]

Ukraine Tanks are very cheap at the moment, we already have the infrastructure for this ukraine Tanks ! (T-80 UD, Alkhalid plus Type-85 are using same ukraine made engines).

why are you under the impression that we will get Armata.

Second no one on this thread have given a solid reason or understood what we are trying to do.

GET A REASONABLE PRICE. Hence the large number of trials.

Altay will never come we can't afford it. Setting up the entire logistical support will take us years.

We require something which is affordable and resilient. And cost effective

I did know all the solid reasons ! But wanted see first the kidz and indians playing in the garden, sometimes you will have more enjoyment in your life, when you sit in your house and look out from the window in the garden !

I am happy that we are buying the T-84 Oplot, its like the F-16 with the PAF !

 

[Zarvan]

Point taken, I rather Pakistan should choose Russian tanks than Ukraine. Why is that? Basically Pakistan should work closer with Russia in defence cooperation. I know we have imported some of tanks technology from Ukraine in the past but I would be thrilled Russia would sell T-90MS to Pakistan.

Russia has tried their best selling, T-90MS has everything Pakistan is looking more than T-84 Oplot features. Otherwise India would be fortunate to grab this tank that will likely to chase T-84 Oplot all nights and morning. Game over!

Look like Pakistan decide not to choose MBT-3000 from China, it also means, MBT-2000 via Al-Khalid is totally failures, obviously 450 of 13 years. That's my opinion no worry.

This Tank doesn't even come close Mr. T-84 Oplot M is more advanced Tank. I can see Tank only as replacement for AL ZARRAR and Type 69 and T-85

 

[Inception-06]

1. Pakistan has a border to defend starting from semi mountain area of Jammu-Sialkot to plains and fields of Lahore-Kasur, River deltas of Sutluj-Bias to the deserts of Bahwalpur-Thar and arid lands of Sindh border. That explains why we can't rely on single model tank.
2. Germans are World leaders in engine technology, but their engine failed in temperatures of Bahawalpur desert. Hence Ukrainian engine was selected for AKs.
3. M1 failed in trails during Zia times. These tanks were top-notch but were design to counter Soviet invasion of Europe. It was suitable for cold, lush green fields of Europe but failed in desert condition. American learned that too while fielding it in Gulf war. Tiny sand particles damaged the expensive blades of its jet turbine engine. There is a reason, why Pakistan opts for diesel engine for its tanks.
4. Some prefer protection over mobility and other choose mobility to compromise little protection. Who knows what PA doctrine is?
5. If you are facing an enemy, who always has enjoyed superior numbers. The numbers which have saved the day for her many times in the past. Whenever she has find herself in trouble, she diluted the threat by opening up new fronts. Surely, someone in hire ups have learned from history that numbers are more important (JF17s are another example). Why we should buy an expensive Turk tank and not 2 Ukrainians ones?

I was waiting for this very fine and clear post, thx, regards !

 

[Audio]

I doubt that very much.. China doesn't hold any preference or authority .. We buy from them due to several factors .. Soft loans,TOT etc.

Russia not really we are getting Mi-35s from them and they have already offered us SAMs and according to recent news Su-35s...

Ukraine has been an old partner -- Il-78s,Help with AK program,Kombat ATGMs,UDs etc etc.

Wanted to write a more detailed reply, but in the end i decided it's not worth it as it would lead to pointless bickering...

I will just leave you with the notion that Kharkov is just across the border where the shelling happens and from the iirc 50 or something tanks for Thai army from a few years ago, only 5 are in operation....make your own conclusions.

 

[Areesh]

Do I win a prise?

 

[CHI RULES]

I agree. In this case I don't see much room for Ukraine. I think Turkey has the most viable option and is arguably the best machine.

Sir why do u think turks have better chance now as perhaps Pak has already preferred T84 OPLOT M for present?
Further Atlay is in development phase we may integrate some of it's tech on our homegrown tanks as we did in the past but due to cost factors/foreign parts odds are against Atlay.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

As we are no longer going to take chinses tanks. Because of certain kickback issues.
1500 hp

Engine manufacturing is given to Pakistan in the 60% ?

 

[CHI RULES]

Bro, Being Heavier is the choice of brain team since they believe on benefits of heavier tanks compared with 45-50 tonnes equivalents. Israeli Merkava are also following similar ways on developments, since Each blocks of Merkava revealed with additional weight and Finally, They reached around 65 tonnes on MK-4 series(3-5 tonnes additional weight). It is more or less same weight of Altay. I think Heavier tanks will be better for Pakistan as long as They are not used on soft and highly mountainous grounds. IFV's equipped with heavier calbre guns/having less pressure effect under the pallets are more suitable for such mountainous regions.

dear news are their about Pak purchase of T64 upgraded serb tanks for mountainous regions about 282.