T-80 and T-84 Main Battle Tanks Information pool

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Enjoy!

 

[Signalian]

@Signalian
Is there a reason besides finances that PA has like 300+ T80UD, 250+ Type 85-IIAP, and various quantities of Al-Zarrar and Al-Khalid?

finances and circumstances

Wouldn't it be simpler to have just one type? Like Al-Khalid for example...PA can do a high/low mix with Al-Khalid I and Al-Khalid II.

Yes

 

[niaz]

Understand Alkhalid-II is turning out to be more expensive than the latest version of Chinese & Ukrainian tanks. It is probably because Al Khalid has too many imported components and the economy of scale.

 

[Armchair]

Understand Alkhalid-II is turning out to be more expensive than the latest version of Chinese & Ukrainian tanks. It is probably because Al Khalid has too many imported components and the economy of scale.

This is a very dangerous and foolish line that PA is taking, if the above is true. MBTs are supposed to be simple, low cost and easy to mass produce. PA is going the route of the Tiger tank rather than the T-34. This blunder will cost Pakistan if there ever is a conventional war with India.

 

[niaz]

This is a very dangerous and foolish line that PA is taking, if the above is true. MBTs are supposed to be simple, low cost and easy to mass produce. PA is going the route of the Tiger tank rather than the T-34. This blunder will cost Pakistan if there ever is a conventional war with India.

Sir,

My information comes from what I read in the press. My comments were based upon the following article:

Quote

HIT has started production of Al-Khalid 2 tanks, Senate body told

BY ONLINE , (LAST UPDATED NOVEMBER 30, 2017)

—Committee recommends budget to come directly to ministry of defence production instead of routing through defence ministry

—Facility producing 18 tanks despite capacity of 50 tanks per year due to budget constraints

ISLAMABAD: Senate Standing Committee on Defence Production on Thursday was informed that to overcome the challenges of modern times, the Heavy Industry Taxila (HIT) has commenced the preparation of the second generation of state of the art Al-Khalid 2 tanks.

The meeting of Senate committee was held at Parliament House, with Senator Lt Gen (retd) Abdul Qayyum in the chair, in which HIT Acting Chairman Brigadier Tahir Islam and Brigadier Nauman gave a detailed briefing on the performance, functioning and projects of the institution.

The meeting was told that HIT has the capacity to build 50 tanks, 50 Armed Personnel Vehicles (APC), and overhauling of 100 tanks per year. “HIT prepares tank with the cost of $30 million, whereas the price of Korean tank is $12 million. But the technical performance of Al-Khalid Tank is far better than the Korean one,” the committee was told.

The committee was also informed that performance-wise, Al-Khalid 2 would not be less than any of its contemporaries.

The committee was further told that renovation project of 108 tanks was started by HIT in 2015, whereas the second phase of the project would be kicked off in 2018. HIT has also announced to supply bulletproof jackets to all the members of the standing committee.

The committee appreciated the achievements and projects by HIT and recommended that the budget disbursement process to HIT may be made smoother and quicker to achieve greater viability and fast pace of work.

The committee was also told that the HIT has a capacity of 50 tanks per year but they are making 18 tanks on average due to budget constraints.

Committee chairman, while terming Al-Khalid Tank pride of the nation, praised the proposal of bringing an upgraded and progressive model Al-Khalid-2 in the industry to compete with constantly developing weaponry all around the world.

The committee strongly recommended that the allocation of budget to defence production industries should come directly to ministry of defence production from the finance division instead of routing through the ministry of defence, and bureaucratic delays should be removed. Committee chairman observed that the committee will push for this proposal by itself but HIT also needs to take the matter up regularly.

The committee was further told that HIT is not entitled to commercial activity on its own. It can only carry out commercial activities from the surplus capacity after fulfilling all kinds of defence needs of armed forces.

https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/20...uction-of-al-khalid-2-tanks-senate-body-told/

Unquote.

It is hard to believe the per-unit cost of $30-million. Even if we believe Wikipedia figure of $4.7 -$5.8-milion (2011 dollars) for the original version of Alkhalid.

"Thailand paid $7.1-miilion pr unit for VT-4 tanks in 2019."

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailan...o-buy-14-more-chinese-tanks-at-cost-of-b2-3bn

Meanwhile, the Ukrainian Oplot tank costs a mere $4.7-million per unit in 2017 dollars.

https://en.hromadske.ua/posts/ukraines-tanks-are-so-good-its-own-army-cant-afford-them

"Russian T-14 Armata tank will cost roughly 4-5 million dollars"

by Dylan Malyasov

https://defence-blog.com/army/russian-t-14-armata-tanks-will-cost-roughly-4-5-million-dollars.html

Admittedly Pakistan cannot rely upon foreign military hardware, but at least we should have the capability of manufacturing similar equipment at equivalent cost. Even if Alkahid -2 costs $7-milion per unit to produce locally; an equally good Oplot or Type -99 is a better buy if it means saving of $200-million for 100 units! This explains why the Pak Army appears to have given up on Al Khalid-2.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Sir,

My information comes from what I read in the press. My comments were based upon the following article:

Quote

HIT has started production of Al-Khalid 2 tanks, Senate body told

BY ONLINE , (LAST UPDATED NOVEMBER 30, 2017)

—Committee recommends budget to come directly to ministry of defence production instead of routing through defence ministry

—Facility producing 18 tanks despite capacity of 50 tanks per year due to budget constraints

ISLAMABAD: Senate Standing Committee on Defence Production on Thursday was informed that to overcome the challenges of modern times, the Heavy Industry Taxila (HIT) has commenced the preparation of the second generation of state of the art Al-Khalid 2 tanks.

The meeting of Senate committee was held at Parliament House, with Senator Lt Gen (retd) Abdul Qayyum in the chair, in which HIT Acting Chairman Brigadier Tahir Islam and Brigadier Nauman gave a detailed briefing on the performance, functioning and projects of the institution.

The meeting was told that HIT has the capacity to build 50 tanks, 50 Armed Personnel Vehicles (APC), and overhauling of 100 tanks per year. “HIT prepares tank with the cost of $30 million, whereas the price of Korean tank is $12 million. But the technical performance of Al-Khalid Tank is far better than the Korean one,” the committee was told.

The committee was also informed that performance-wise, Al-Khalid 2 would not be less than any of its contemporaries.

The committee was further told that renovation project of 108 tanks was started by HIT in 2015, whereas the second phase of the project would be kicked off in 2018. HIT has also announced to supply bulletproof jackets to all the members of the standing committee.

The committee appreciated the achievements and projects by HIT and recommended that the budget disbursement process to HIT may be made smoother and quicker to achieve greater viability and fast pace of work.

The committee was also told that the HIT has a capacity of 50 tanks per year but they are making 18 tanks on average due to budget constraints.

Committee chairman, while terming Al-Khalid Tank pride of the nation, praised the proposal of bringing an upgraded and progressive model Al-Khalid-2 in the industry to compete with constantly developing weaponry all around the world.

The committee strongly recommended that the allocation of budget to defence production industries should come directly to ministry of defence production from the finance division instead of routing through the ministry of defence, and bureaucratic delays should be removed. Committee chairman observed that the committee will push for this proposal by itself but HIT also needs to take the matter up regularly.

The committee was further told that HIT is not entitled to commercial activity on its own. It can only carry out commercial activities from the surplus capacity after fulfilling all kinds of defence needs of armed forces.

https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/20...uction-of-al-khalid-2-tanks-senate-body-told/

Unquote.

It is hard to believe the per-unit cost of $30-million. Even if we believe Wikipedia figure of $4.7 -$5.8-milion (2011 dollars) for the original version of Alkhalid.

"Thailand paid $7.1-miilion pr unit for VT-4 tanks in 2019."

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailan...o-buy-14-more-chinese-tanks-at-cost-of-b2-3bn

Meanwhile, the Ukrainian Oplot tank costs a mere $4.7-million per unit in 2017 dollars.

https://en.hromadske.ua/posts/ukraines-tanks-are-so-good-its-own-army-cant-afford-them

"Russian T-14 Armata tank will cost roughly 4-5 million dollars"

by Dylan Malyasov

https://defence-blog.com/army/russian-t-14-armata-tanks-will-cost-roughly-4-5-million-dollars.html

Admittedly Pakistan cannot rely upon foreign military hardware, but at least we should have the capability of manufacturing similar equipment at equivalent cost. Even if Alkahid -2 costs $7-milion per unit to produce locally; an equally good Oplot or Type -99 is a better buy if it means saving of $200-million for 100 units! This explains why the Pak Army appears to have given up on Al Khalid-2.

IMO there has been mistake in reporting. Even with improved and imported equipment price is unrealistic.

 

[Tipu7]

HIT prepares tank with the cost of $30 million, whereas the price of Korean tank is $12 million. But the technical performance of Al-Khalid Tank is far better than the Korean one,

This is ridiculous.
The source, apparently, has failed to convery the information in appropriate way.

@Signalian
Is there a reason besides finances that PA has like 300+ T80UD, 250+ Type 85-IIAP, and various quantities of Al-Zarrar and Al-Khalid?

Wouldn't it be simpler to have just one type? Like Al-Khalid for example...PA can do a high/low mix with Al-Khalid I and Al-Khalid II.

The primary issue here is combination of finances & incompetency. Our military top brass has repeatedly failed to anticipate the buildup of threat across the border and therefore has come up with hasty short term countermeasures instead of a well thought long term policy.
For example, 280 T85 were bought on emergency basis to counter the threat of T72M which India displayed during Brasstacks. 320 T80UD were bought due to failures & delays in Al Khalid project.
And once Al Khalid rolled out, Pakistan army has failed to develop it into sufficient numbers to meet up the armor requirements.

This is a very dangerous and foolish line that PA is taking, if the above is true. MBTs are supposed to be simple, low cost and easy to mass produce. PA is going the route of the Tiger tank rather than the T-34. This blunder will cost Pakistan if there ever is a conventional war with India.

We cannot take 'T34' line as India will always has more number of tanks. Pakistan needs capable tanks in sufficient numbers alongside large number of Anti tank forces.

 

[Armchair]

Not going the "T-34 route" means even fewer tanks than going "T-34 route". The argument seems illogical. It translates to "since the enemy is numerous, we will reduce our numbers further".

When a family is going hungry, they don't buy a small quantity of meat, they go for a large quantity of roti, dal, sabzi and anda.

XXXXXXX


To the quandry of a serious shortage of Tanks in the PA, here are a few thoughts:

1. T-84 seems to be doing well in PA service, perhaps a batch can be ordered from Ukraine's own stock. They seem eager to sell given the state of their economy. Second hand T-84s may help if the price is right.

2. T-72B from Russia long with the Russian new gen thermal sight (if they will sell any). The latter would lower the cost of the AK and AZ as the French thermal sight is expensive.

3. Dummy tanks. Build a low cost dummy tank that can drive around and even move its turret (perhaps even fire something simple internally). These dummy tanks would give the appearance of numbers and lower the chances during war of real ones being hit.

4. "Quantity has a quality all its own". A simple tank, let's call it Al-Simple

AL Simple Tank has a crew of 4, driver, commander gunner and loader. It uses a 500 hp diesel engine, a conversion from a truck engine to lower costs further. Thus, it's not the fastest tank, but can travel more than adequately to keep up with organic infantry. The gun is a 76mm low pressure gun, which surely won't be able to take out enemy tanks.

Instead, to take out enemy tanks, Al Simple uses 8x ATGMs, quad packed on both sides of the turret. Al Simple also has a mortar system, to deal with entrenched enemy with indirect fire. The FCS of Al Simple uses a simple new generation thermal imager, which are now found commercially at minimal cost (see for instance, http://www.pard-tech.com/Products/Thermal-imaging-scope/2019/0424/297.html).

Al simple's engine is up front, weapons storage next, and in the rear is the turret and rear opening hatch for the four crew. This allows Al Simple crew to easily escape and also accomodate 2x soldiers.

Al Simple weighs 40 tons and uses a combination of ERA armor and steel spacing to defeat incoming ATGMs. Other than the frontal arc, Al Simple does not hope to survive direct SABOT or ATGM hits.

As you may have guessed by now, Al Simple is a simple tank. Its numbers allow the Pak infantryman to have something to count on other than artillery to support them in that crucial last 100 yards.

 

[Tipu7]

Not going the "T-34 route" means even fewer tanks than going "T-34 route". The argument seems illogical. It translates to "since the enemy is numerous, we will reduce our numbers further".

When a family is going hungry, they don't buy a small quantity of meat, they go for a large quantity of roti, dal, sabzi and anda.

Pal, military affairs are too complex to be compared with such examples.

1. T-84 seems to be doing well in PA service, perhaps a batch can be ordered from Ukraine's own stock. They seem eager to sell given the state of their economy. Second hand T-84s may help if the price is right.

There are no T80UD available in market. Ukraine has moved its entire T80 fleet from reserves to frontlines following crisus with Russia.

2. T-72B from Russia long with the Russian new gen thermal sight (if they will sell any). The latter would lower the cost of the AK and AZ as the French thermal sight is expensive.

Why you want to acquire an entirely new type of tank which itself is an upgraded T72 and costs as much as new one? Even T72B3 will be obsolete within a decade.

3. Dummy tanks. Build a low cost dummy tank that can drive around and even move its turret (perhaps even fire something simple internally). These dummy tanks would give the appearance of numbers and lower the chances during war of real ones being hit.

You are trolling, right?

4. "Quantity has a quality all its own". A simple tank, let's call it Al-Simple

Such quotes don't work every time and everywhere.

AL Simple Tank has a crew of 4, driver, commander gunner and loader. It uses a 500 hp diesel engine, a conversion from a truck engine to lower costs further. Thus, it's not the fastest tank, but can travel more than adequately to keep up with organic infantry. The gun is a 76mm low pressure gun, which surely won't be able to take out enemy tanks.

Instead, to take out enemy tanks, Al Simple uses 8x ATGMs, quad packed on both sides of the turret. Al Simple also has a mortar system, to deal with entrenched enemy with indirect fire. The FCS of Al Simple uses a simple new generation thermal imager, which are now found commercially at minimal cost (see for instance, http://www.pard-tech.com/Products/Thermal-imaging-scope/2019/0424/297.html).

Al simple's engine is up front, weapons storage next, and in the rear is the turret and rear opening hatch for the four crew. This allows Al Simple crew to easily escape and also accomodate 2x soldiers.

Al Simple weighs 40 tons and uses a combination of ERA armor and steel spacing to defeat incoming ATGMs. Other than the frontal arc, Al Simple does not hope to survive direct SABOT or ATGM hits.

As you may have guessed by now, Al Simple is a simple tank. Its numbers allow the Pak infantryman to have something to count on other than artillery to support them in that crucial last 100 yards.

Pal your basic understanding about armored warfare is flawed. Though I appreciate the effort you are putting up, but you should read up more about the topic.

 

[Armchair]

Pal, military affairs are too complex to be compared with such examples.

There are no T80UD available in market. Ukraine has moved its entire T80 fleet from reserves to frontlines following crisus with Russia.

Why you want to acquire an entirely new type of tank which itself is an upgraded T72 and costs as much as new one? Even T72B3 will be obsolete within a decade.

You are trolling, right?

Such quotes don't work every time and everywhere.

Pal your basic understanding about armored warfare is flawed. Though I appreciate the effort you are putting up, but you should read up more about the topic.

When someone's reply to an argument is "pal your basic argument is flawed" without explaining how or why, and writing one liners, I assume they are a 9 year old, so I am going to let you enjoy the weather and leave you to your own devices.

 

[niaz]

This is ridiculous.
The source, apparently, has failed to convery the information in appropriate way.

Agreed, in my opinion, the figure was most probably $13-million which was misunderstood as $30-million. This is reinforced by the fact that in the article it was compared to the $12-million Korean tank. I restricted myself to saying " It is hard to believe" because I prefer not to correct a written statement based on 'Guess'.

Nevertheless, Alkhaild -2 being more expensive to build than a JF-17 is hard to stomach. It also shows that except for a very few, our journalists do not believe in doing any research on the accuracy of the numbers quoted by them.

 

[Tipu7]

Agreed, in my opinion, the figure was most probably $13-million which was misunderstood as $30-million. This is reinforced by the fact that in the article it was compared to the $12-million Korean tank. I restricted myself to saying " It is hard to believe" because I prefer not to correct a written statement based on 'Guess'.

I wonder what type of Korean Tank we are talking about here, and why? If it's Black Panther then wiser comparison will be between T90MS, T99A2 with AK2. And as far as I remember, the per unit price of AK was between 3-4.5 Cr during late Zardari era (when I worked briefly in HIT).

Nevertheless, Alkhaild -2 being more expensive to build than a JF-17 is hard to stomach. It also shows that except for a very few, our journalists do not believe in doing any research on the accuracy of the numbers quoted by them.

Indeed, figures are misquoted. I have seen our people in media getting confuse between F7 aircraft and F7 Islamabad sector. So the information they convey is very much doubtful.

The price of AK2, IMO, depends how much comprehensively we will evolve from AK1 to AK2. Definitely, major changes will be there in domain's of powerplant, Turret layout, armor, munitions, Ballistic computers (etc) and sights. (PA has taken interest how Polish have developed PT16 from PT91). Therfore, in the presence of major upgrades, the price increment of AK2 program is justify able provided that we produce them in sufficient numbers.

When someone's reply to an argument is "pal your basic argument is flawed" without explaining how or why, and writing one liners,

There is no argument in your write up.

I assume they are a 9 year old, so I am going to let you enjoy the weather and leave you to your own devices.

Hmmmm. You are wrong here too. My students usually age between 18-20 years, so naturally it's not possible for me to be 9 years old.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

I wonder what type of Korean Tank we are talking about here, and why? If it's Black Panther then wiser comparison will be between T90MS, T99A2 with AK2. And as far as I remember, the per unit price of AK was between 3-4.5 Cr during late Zardari era (when I worked briefly in HIT).

Indeed, figures are misquoted. I have seen our people in media getting confuse between F7 aircraft and F7 Islamabad sector. So the information they convey is very much doubtful.

The price of AK2, IMO, depends how much comprehensively we will evolve from AK1 to AK2. Definitely, major changes will be there in domain's of powerplant, Turret layout, armor, munitions, Ballistic computers (etc) and sights. (PA has taken interest how Polish have developed PT16 from PT91). Therfore, in the presence of major upgrades, the price increment of AK2 program is justify able provided that we produce them in sufficient numbers.


There is no argument in your write up.

Hmmmm. You are wrong here too. My students usually age between 18-20 years, so naturally it's not possible for me to be 9 years old.

Would there be self protection like Trophy?

 

[Gryphon]

Sir,

My information comes from what I read in the press. My comments were based upon the following article:

Quote

HIT has started production of Al-Khalid 2 tanks, Senate body told

BY ONLINE , (LAST UPDATED NOVEMBER 30, 2017)

—Committee recommends budget to come directly to ministry of defence production instead of routing through defence ministry

—Facility producing 18 tanks despite capacity of 50 tanks per year due to budget constraints

ISLAMABAD: Senate Standing Committee on Defence Production on Thursday was informed that to overcome the challenges of modern times, the Heavy Industry Taxila (HIT) has commenced the preparation of the second generation of state of the art Al-Khalid 2 tanks.

The meeting of Senate committee was held at Parliament House, with Senator Lt Gen (retd) Abdul Qayyum in the chair, in which HIT Acting Chairman Brigadier Tahir Islam and Brigadier Nauman gave a detailed briefing on the performance, functioning and projects of the institution.

The meeting was told that HIT has the capacity to build 50 tanks, 50 Armed Personnel Vehicles (APC), and overhauling of 100 tanks per year. “HIT prepares tank with the cost of $30 million, whereas the price of Korean tank is $12 million. But the technical performance of Al-Khalid Tank is far better than the Korean one,” the committee was told.

The committee was also informed that performance-wise, Al-Khalid 2 would not be less than any of its contemporaries.

The committee was further told that renovation project of 108 tanks was started by HIT in 2015, whereas the second phase of the project would be kicked off in 2018. HIT has also announced to supply bulletproof jackets to all the members of the standing committee.

The committee appreciated the achievements and projects by HIT and recommended that the budget disbursement process to HIT may be made smoother and quicker to achieve greater viability and fast pace of work.

The committee was also told that the HIT has a capacity of 50 tanks per year but they are making 18 tanks on average due to budget constraints.

Committee chairman, while terming Al-Khalid Tank pride of the nation, praised the proposal of bringing an upgraded and progressive model Al-Khalid-2 in the industry to compete with constantly developing weaponry all around the world.

The committee strongly recommended that the allocation of budget to defence production industries should come directly to ministry of defence production from the finance division instead of routing through the ministry of defence, and bureaucratic delays should be removed. Committee chairman observed that the committee will push for this proposal by itself but HIT also needs to take the matter up regularly.

The committee was further told that HIT is not entitled to commercial activity on its own. It can only carry out commercial activities from the surplus capacity after fulfilling all kinds of defence needs of armed forces.

https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/20...uction-of-al-khalid-2-tanks-senate-body-told/

Unquote.

It is hard to believe the per-unit cost of $30-million. Even if we believe Wikipedia figure of $4.7 -$5.8-milion (2011 dollars) for the original version of Alkhalid.

"Thailand paid $7.1-miilion pr unit for VT-4 tanks in 2019."

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailan...o-buy-14-more-chinese-tanks-at-cost-of-b2-3bn

Meanwhile, the Ukrainian Oplot tank costs a mere $4.7-million per unit in 2017 dollars.

https://en.hromadske.ua/posts/ukraines-tanks-are-so-good-its-own-army-cant-afford-them

"Russian T-14 Armata tank will cost roughly 4-5 million dollars"

by Dylan Malyasov

https://defence-blog.com/army/russian-t-14-armata-tanks-will-cost-roughly-4-5-million-dollars.html

Admittedly Pakistan cannot rely upon foreign military hardware, but at least we should have the capability of manufacturing similar equipment at equivalent cost. Even if Alkahid -2 costs $7-milion per unit to produce locally; an equally good Oplot or Type -99 is a better buy if it means saving of $200-million for 100 units! This explains why the Pak Army appears to have given up on Al Khalid-2.

US$ 3.0 million is erroneously reported as US$ 30 million here. That is for the basic AK. AK-II is not even in the prototype phase - but Norinco & HIT are at it.

 

[Armchair]

Just to get things on track here, Western Block tanks tend to cost between 5-10 million USD. Eastern block tanks 1-3 million USD. AK was supposed to cost about 1 million or less originally.

On a separate note, Russia has a lot of T-80 tanks that are out of service as Russia chose to standardize on the T-72 and derivatives (T-90). Pak could perhaps purchase these boneyard machines, put a Ukranian engine and other local fitments and increase the T-80 component by 500 at minimal cost.