T-129 Atak & Turkish Attack Helicopter Programs

[Audio]

M230 chaingun is very inaccurate and an overkill for infantry and most APCs. Having this 30mm gun means you have to fly with a bigger ammo-box but still having less ammo to fire. 16x Hellfire+Longbow is a crappy configuration to fly with, considering there are no more vast tank forces in the world.

Ahm.

Article from 92'. I guess Apache flies only in Hellfire config. in your poor electricity deprived mind.

Apache 30MM chain gun makes reliability, accuracy grade - Army.

this extra weight not only adds to the cost but also makes Apache a big fat target for RPGs. It's a horrible idea to fly with between mountains and canyons. It also makes it necessary to fly with a much stronger engine, and more power output means more heat output. Which isn't a good thing.

It never occured to you the extra weight is the consequence of more protection? Horrible idea to fly low? lol.....RPG's are less a threat then what lurks higher up.

is a much better answer to the needs of most armies in the world. We have lighter, data-link guided lighter ATGMs and the world's first laser guided 70mm rockets.

This alone disqualifies you as someone who is to be taken seriously. I suggest you go and read some.

Here are some keywords:

Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System
Lightweight Multirole Missile
Laser Guided Zuni

enjoy educating yourself!

(AH1W and on) were designed after the test of Vietnam war, with all the factors of asymmetric warfare in mind. AH64 was designed to counter the vast tank forces of the Warsaw pact. Do you get it now? Asymmetric threats will always be present in this world but the cold war is over.

Yes, and? What if the cold war is over? Are you saying there are no more tanks to destroy?

 

[Mosamania]

M230 chaingun is very inaccurate and an overkill for infantry and most APCs. Having this 30mm gun means you have to fly with a bigger ammo-box but still having less ammo to fire. 16x Hellfire+Longbow is a crappy configuration to fly with, considering there are no more vast tank forces in the world.

All this extra weight not only adds to the cost but also makes Apache a big fat target for RPGs. It's a horrible idea to fly with between mountains and canyons. It also makes it necessary to fly with a much stronger engine, and more power output means more heat output. Which isn't a good thing.

T129 is a much better answer to the needs of most armies in the world. We have lighter, data-link guided lighter ATGMs and the world's first laser guided 70mm rockets. First very good for network-centric warfare and the second is ideal for asymmetric threats. As for Longbow, we do have milimetric-wave radars(check mildar) but we don't use them on attack helicopters. It's a great unnecessity.

Cobras(AH1W and on) were designed after the test of Vietnam war, with all the factors of asymmetric warfare in mind. AH64 was designed to counter the vast tank forces of the Warsaw pact. Do you get it now? Asymmetric threats will always be present in this world but the cold war is over.

Okay for starters I consider Attack Helicopters of today as the cavalry of the old era. Just like how you have Heavy Cavalry and Light Cavalry you have Heavy and Light choppers. And both have their roles.

The heavy Cavalry is great for charging against a group of enemies while the light cavalry is good against chasing down fleeing enemies and for hit and run tactics.

Considering which is the best depends on the role you wish to employ them at. As for Turkey clearly a Light Chopper is the best option considering it is actively fighting against an irregular asymmetric enemy in a "Mountainous" terrain. Our needs are against a conventional enemy in "Desert" terrain. Although the need to fight an asymmetric enemy in mountainous terrain have presented itself recently. However considering we only had Heavy Choppers in the form of the AH64 which proved itself without a doubt as a game changer earning it a nickname of the "Black She-Devil" between the Houthi ranks which became sort of the unofficial name for it in our military taking down entire training camps, hideouts and tunnels in a single sortie, as well as providing CAS for troops which prompted our request for more of them.

Oh and regarding it being an easy target for RPGs, You clearly haven't clue of what really is the Apache's armor made of. You can fire 5 RPGs at it and it won't even make a dent. Okay maybe a dent but not much really.

And just take a deep breath close your eyes and imagine what a fleet of 94 Apaches can do in a single sortie.... 153 counting all GCC Apaches.

 

[LegionnairE]

Ahm.
Article from 92'. I guess Apache flies only in Hellfire config.
Apache 30MM chain gun makes reliability, accuracy grade - Army.

I'll read it, I still think it's an overkill.

It never occured to you the extra weight is the consequence of more protection?

Protection from DShKMs while flying over Soviet tank battalions It's still not much of a bad thing but it can do you no good if you get hit by an RPG.

This alone disqualifies you as someone who is to be taken seriously. I suggest you go and read some.

Roketsan Cirit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cirit IS the first 70mm laser-guided rocket of the world, US AH64s still fly with unguided 2.75" Hydra pods.

Yes, and? What if the cold war is over? Are you saying there are no more tanks to destroy?

Look around you, Germany, the birthplace of Heinz Guderian and blitzkrieg is left with 170 Leopard2A6Ms

8 ATGM+70mm rocket pod configuration is much, much better now. We also have short range AA missiles available (probably AIM9 or Stinger)

Oh and regarding it being an easy target for RPGs, You clearly haven't clue of what really is the Apache's armor made of. You can fire 5 RPGs at it and it won't even make a dent. Okay maybe a dent but not much really.

you're crazy bro 5 RPGs with tandem warheads can take down a 50 tonnes tank let alone a 5 tones helicopter AH64 can only survive a stinger or strela hit because of the small warhead.

 

[Mosamania]

I
Roketsan Cirit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cirit IS the first 70mm laser-guided rocket of the world, US AH64s still fly with unguided 2.75" Hydra pods.

Direct Attack Guided Rocket - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[BronzePlaque]

Comparing T-129 ATAK with AH-64 Apache is nonsense..Its like comparing a Tiger tank with M4 Sherman..2 different classes..

And as for outdated statement, obviously AH-64 is not an outdated helo but its mission definition is outdated imho..Back in 1970s when the U.S. Army issued a Request For Proposals for an Advanced Attack Helicopter, the main threat was massive Soviet Armor columns and surely Apaches are well suited for this mission definition..

But at present this threat coming from massive armor columns have changed( that being said, there are several countries still face this threat i.e. Israel)

Lets see how was Apache performance during Balkan Conflict:

The AH-64 played roles in the Balkans during separate conflicts in Bosnia and Kosovo in the 1990s. During Task Force Hawk 24 Apaches were deployed to a land base in Albania in 1999 to participate in the Kosovo engagement; this required 26,000 tons of equipment to be transported and over 550 C-17 flights, at a cost of US$480 million.During these deployments the AH-64 encountered problems such as deficiencies in training, night vision equipment, fuel tanks, and survivability. On 27 April 1999 an Apache crashed during training in Albania due to a failure with the tail rotor, causing the entire fleet in the Balkans to be grounded in December 2000.

Major General Dick Cody, then the commanding officer of the 101st Airborne, wrote a strongly worded memo to the U.S. Army Chief of Staff about the failures in training and equipment.The Washington Post also dedicated an front-page article to the failures in Kosovo, commenting that: "The vaunted helicopters came to symbolise everything wrong with the Army as it enters the 21st century: Its inability to move quickly, its resistance to change, its obsession with casualties, its post-Cold War identity crisis". The Apache did not conduct any combat missions over Kosovo due to fears over the risk of casualties; in addition, none of the pilots were qualified to fly with night vision goggles, preventing nighttime operations.

And thats why Turkey went for ATAK..Highly manoeuvrable, its open for development structure, light, less maintenance cost..And of course, its mission definition is also different

 

[Mosamania]

Comparing T-129 ATAK with AH-64 Apache is nonsense..Its like comparing a Tiger tank with M4 Sherman..2 different classes..

And as for outdated statement, obviously AH-64 is not an outdated helo but its mission definition is outdated imho..Back in 1970s when the U.S. Army issued a Request For Proposals for an Advanced Attack Helicopter, the main threat was massive Soviet Armor columns and surely Apaches are well suited for this mission definition..

But at present this threat coming from massive armor columns have changed( that being said, there are several countries still face this threat i.e. Israel) Lets see how was Apaches performance during Balkan Conflict(present):

The AH-64 played roles in the Balkans during separate conflicts in Bosnia and Kosovo in the 1990s. During Task Force Hawk 24 Apaches were deployed to a land base in Albania in 1999 to participate in the Kosovo engagement; this required 26,000 tons of equipment to be transported and over 550 C-17 flights, at a cost of US$480 million.During these deployments the AH-64 encountered problems such as deficiencies in training, night vision equipment, fuel tanks, and survivability. On 27 April 1999 an Apache crashed during training in Albania due to a failure with the tail rotor, causing the entire fleet in the Balkans to be grounded in December 2000.

Major General Dick Cody, then the commanding officer of the 101st Airborne, wrote a strongly worded memo to the U.S. Army Chief of Staff about the failures in training and equipment.The Washington Post also dedicated an front-page article to the failures in Kosovo, commenting that: "The vaunted helicopters came to symbolise everything wrong with the Army as it enters the 21st century: Its inability to move quickly, its resistance to change, its obsession with casualties, its post-Cold War identity crisis". The Apache did not conduct any combat missions over Kosovo due to fears over the risk of casualties; in addition, none of the pilots were qualified to fly with night vision goggles, preventing nighttime operations.

And thats why Turkey went for ATAK..Highly manoeuvrable, its open for development structure, light, less maintenance cost..And of course, its mission definition is also different

But 8 years earlier, Its performance in the Gulf War was decisive and without a doubt impressive. Also I stand by its performance in our service which was also impressive and speaks highly of the ability of the aircraft.

 

[Audio]

I'll read it, I still think it's an overkill.

Your ability to think is seriously impaired by your nationalistic ego. No such thing as an overkill when your life is on the line. I'm sorry that's my opinion, if you don't value your life as much, that is your problem.

from DShKMs while flying over Soviet tank battalions It's still not much of a bad thing but it can do you no good if you get hit by an RPG.

I'm sure you would be of the same opinion if they threw you in a cardboard box to fly over enemy positions.

Roketsan Cirit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cirit IS the first 70mm laser-guided rocket of the world, US AH64s still fly with unguided 2.75" Hydra pods.

i did not dispute any of that, only the first missile statement. Again i suggest you Google search those keywords i gave you and learn about the history of other programmes.

around you, Germany, the birthplace of Heinz Guderian and blitzkrieg is left with 170 Leopard2A6Ms 8 ATGM+70mm rocket pod configuration is much, much better now. We also have short range AA missiles available (probably AIM9 or Stinger)

Ahm, so..because European security has never been higher we should just collectively drop defenses? Also, i was not talking about German tanks.......

Comparing T-129 ATAK with AH-64 Apache is nonsense..Its like comparing a Tiger tank with M4 Sherman..2 different classes..

And as for outdated statement, obviously AH-64 is not an outdated helo but its mission definition is outdated imho..Back in 1970s when the U.S. Army issued a Request For Proposals for an Advanced Attack Helicopter, the main threat was massive Soviet Armor columns and surely Apaches are well suited for this mission definition..

But at present this threat coming from massive armor columns have changed( that being said, there are several countries still face this threat i.e. Israel)

Lets see how was Apache performance during Balkan Conflict:

The AH-64 played roles in the Balkans during separate conflicts in Bosnia and Kosovo in the 1990s. During Task Force Hawk 24 Apaches were deployed to a land base in Albania in 1999 to participate in the Kosovo engagement; this required 26,000 tons of equipment to be transported and over 550 C-17 flights, at a cost of US$480 million.During these deployments the AH-64 encountered problems such as deficiencies in training, night vision equipment, fuel tanks, and survivability. On 27 April 1999 an Apache crashed during training in Albania due to a failure with the tail rotor, causing the entire fleet in the Balkans to be grounded in December 2000.

Major General Dick Cody, then the commanding officer of the 101st Airborne, wrote a strongly worded memo to the U.S. Army Chief of Staff about the failures in training and equipment.The Washington Post also dedicated an front-page article to the failures in Kosovo, commenting that: "The vaunted helicopters came to symbolise everything wrong with the Army as it enters the 21st century: Its inability to move quickly, its resistance to change, its obsession with casualties, its post-Cold War identity crisis". The Apache did not conduct any combat missions over Kosovo due to fears over the risk of casualties; in addition, none of the pilots were qualified to fly with night vision goggles, preventing nighttime operations.

And thats why Turkey went for ATAK..Highly manoeuvrable, its open for development structure, light, less maintenance cost..And of course, its mission definition is also different

You basically wrote a wall of text describing deficiencies in the way the US Army ran things and blaming it on the equipment (helicopter). That's some agility in denial, i admit.

To furthermore expose your petty bias in terms of night vision and training i also offer:

The Apache crashed in flames in rugged terrain about 50 miles northeast of its base near Tirana, Albania's capital. It was flying a night training mission, and at least one of the pilots was believed to be wearing infrared night-vision goggles.

2 U.s. Apache Pilots Die

In regards to the statement about how many flights and tonnes of gear it took for Apaches i present:

WASHINGTON CNN The Pentagon said that a delayed contingent of 24 U.S. Apache attack helicopters would begin arriving in Albania on Wednesday for use in NATO airstrikes on Yugoslavia.

The helicopters had been expected in the Albanian capital Tirana on Tuesday but poor weather delayed their departure. U.S. Brig. Gen. Charles Walk said half of the Apaches would be sent on Wednesday and the rest on Thursday.

In addition to the 700 soldiers from the 82nd AirborneDivision who left Fort Bragg on Monday night with moreexpected to follow 2,300 support personnel from theNorth Carolina base are also being sent.

It takes about 14 people on the ground to get one of the Apaches in the air, said Lt. Col. Vance Sales, commander of the 229th Attack Helicopter Regiment at Fort Bragg. It is much more involved than a couple of pilots hopping in and taking off.

http://articles.cnn.com/1999-04-20/us/9904_20_us.kosovo.military.02_1_task-force-hawk-helicopters-nato?_s=PM:US

Furthermore, this base was the closest to Yugoslavian border, with SF personnel operating out of it and due to it's proximity and valuable assets it had to be protected.
There were also talks to launch a ground offensive from Albania and Macedonia but you dont know anything about it. You think all that equipment and people are there to service 24 helicopters.

 

[BronzePlaque]

But 8 years earlier, Its performance in the Gulf War was decisive and without a doubt impressive. Also I stand by its performance in our service which was also impressive and speaks highly of the ability of the aircraft.

Of course mate..I tell you, its all about mission given to Apaches..For a tank hunter, i dont know any better helo than Apache..But that being said, every country has different needs and face different threats..Back then in the Gulf War, Iraqi Army had the most armor in the entire ME and Apaches did their job...

 

[LegionnairE]

Your ability to think is seriously impaired by your nationalistic ego. No such thing as an overkill when your life is on the line. I'm sorry that's my opinion, if you don't value your life as much, that is your problem.

Sorry, Flying that huge ammo-box around doesn't make your life any more secure. Whole idea of 30mm DU ammo was to pierce through tanks. Now they use all-HE ammo which isn't much stronger than 20mm either.

i did not dispute any of that, only the first missile statement. Again i suggest you Google search those keywords i gave you and learn about the history of other programmes.

I know other programs exist, I'm just saying Roketsan Cirit is the damn first. Proving how advanced we are in asymmetric warfare.

Ahm, so..because European security has never been higher we should just collectively drop defenses? Also, i was not talking about German tanks.......

It's the same in everywhere, that era is over, finito. Turkish army is replacing around 3000+ M48s with 1000 Altay and we are such a militaristic nation. Numbers are dropping steadily.

 

[Audio]

Sorry, Flying that huge ammo-box around doesn't make your life any more secure. Whole idea of 30mm DU ammo was to pierce through tanks. Now they use all-HE ammo which isn't much stronger than 20mm either.

So, if you are in a firefight, what would you like more: a gun or an assault rifle? Ever heard of the saying: best defense is offense? No?
In regards to 20/30mm difference. it is stronger by default since it has bigger mass with which it impacts. Physics dude. Elementary physics at that.

I know other programs exist, I'm just saying Roketsan Cirit is the damn first. Proving how advanced we are in asymmetric warfare.

You didn't Google those keywords did you? Please do, and put some attention on years some of those programmes started.

It's the same in everywhere, that era is over, finito. Turkish army is replacing around 3000+ M48s with 1000 Altay and we are such a militaristic nation. Numbers are dropping steadily.

Numbers are dropping steadily because due to dwindling defence budgets nations of Europe are forced to pool resources together and share responsabilities. Netherlands sold all their tanks, because their responsability is BMD. They are expanding capabilities in that area, with planned SM-2's and later SM-3's on Dutch ships stationed in the Mediteranean.

I wont reply to you anymore, you are a full cup, full nationalistic cup if i may add, it would be a waste of bandwidth since obviously we are not getting anywhere and out of courtesy to Def.pk who pays for bandwidth we use i'm pulling out of this conversation.

 

[ANPP]

M230 chaingun is very inaccurate and an overkill for infantry and most APCs. Having this 30mm gun means you have to fly with a bigger ammo-box but still having less ammo to fire. 16x Hellfire+Longbow is a crappy configuration to fly with, considering there are no more vast tank forces in the world.

All this extra weight not only adds to the cost but also makes Apache a big fat target for RPGs. It's a horrible idea to fly with between mountains and canyons. It also makes it necessary to fly with a much stronger engine, and more power output means more heat output. Which isn't a good thing.

T129 is a much better answer to the needs of most armies in the world. We have lighter, data-link guided lighter ATGMs and the world's first laser guided 70mm rockets. First very good for network-centric warfare and the second is ideal for asymmetric threats. As for Longbow, we do have milimetric-wave radars(check mildar) but we don't use them on attack helicopters. It's a great unnecessity.

Cobras(AH1W and on) were designed after the test of Vietnam war, with all the factors of asymmetric warfare in mind. AH64 was designed to counter the vast tank forces of the Warsaw pact. Do you get it now? Asymmetric threats will always be present in this world but the cold war is over.

Instead of questioning on Apache s capabilties, why you just dont split out that T129 is much more compatible for low intensity conflict & search-destroy low profile targets, where Apache is not efficient.

 

[LegionnairE]

So, if you are in a firefight, what would you like more: a gun or an assault rifle? Ever heard of the saying: best defense is offense? No?
In regards to 20/30mm difference. it is stronger by default since it has bigger mass with which it impacts. Physics dude. Elementary physics at that.

Stop BS ing me. By mass he says, 30mm DU has much more mass, any moron could tell it. I'm saying it lost it's purpose. By this moronic "bigger is better" logic we should make MI-26 sized attack helicopters and Maus-like tanks.

You didn't Google those keywords did you? Please do, and put some attention on years some of those programmes started.

So Cirit entered service first, this is the official statement I'm not BSing here.

Numbers are dropping steadily because due to dwindling defence budgets nations of Europe are forced to pool resources together and share responsabilities.

You think I don't know that? Could you point me where a non-EU country named Turkey stands in this? Military doctrines have changed around the world tanks aren't the main tools of the battlefield no more. Even artillery has more importance these days.

I wont reply to you anymore, you are a full cup

Suit yourself, It was boring for me anyway

Instead of questioning on Apache s capabilties, why you just dont split out that T129 is much more compatible for low intensity conflict & search-destroy low profile targets, where Apache is not efficient.

I'm saying the battle concept which AH64 was designed for is non existent. So It isn't efficient for anything these days. Which makes it technically outdated. Is that too much to agree on?

 

[BronzePlaque]

You basically wrote a wall of text describing deficiencies in the way the US Army ran things and blaming it on the equipment (helicopter). That's some agility in denial, i admit.

To furthermore expose your petty bias in terms of night vision and training i also offer:



2 U.s. Apache Pilots Die

In regards to the statement about how many flights and tonnes of gear it took for Apaches i present:



U.S. Apache helicopters due in Albania on Wednesday - CNN

Furthermore, this base was the closest to Yugoslavian border, with SF personnel operating out of it and due to it's proximity and valuable assets it had to be protected.
There were also talks to launch a ground offensive from Albania and Macedonia but you dont know anything about it. You think all that equipment and people are there to service 24 helicopters.

Calm down buddy..You are over sentimental about this issue..Good job, you exposed my petty bias and all but too bad you did not understand my post at all..Training, night vision goggles etc are all of secondary importance..Why i gave the example of Balkan conflicts was to underline something else..As Mosa posted earlier, i would also give the first Gulf War example and would tell how good Apaches did in that conflict but that wouldnt further my argument...Different circumstances, different threat..Relax, i am not questioning the capabilities of Apaches

 

[ANPP]

I'm saying the battle concept which AH64 was designed for is non existent. So It isn't efficient for anything these days. Which makes it technically outdated. Is that so much to agree on?

Until/unless there are tanks, AH64 is also reasonable. Just imaging ( not want any offence) random country attack on Turkey, than what should be your probability take down their infantry or halt their armor offense.
Yes you can say AH64 is not suited for your military doctrine & T129 is best for your insurgency problem.

 

[Audio]

Stop BS ing me. By mass he says, 30mm DU has much more mass, any moron could tell it. I'm saying it lost it's purpose. By this moronic "bigger is better" logic we should make MI-26 sized attack helicopters and Maus-like tanks.

No, you dumbass, i said 20mm and 30mm of the same type (HE) will have different mass. And with same muzzle velocities the energy of impact will be bigger with 30mm then with 20mm. E=mc2.

Stop making a fool out of yourself.

So Cirit entered service first, this is the official statement I'm not BSing here.

Prove it. With that said, you haven't backed up anything you said with anything but one wiki link.

I'm saying the battle concept which AH64 was designed for is non existent. So It isn't efficient for anything these days. Which makes it technically outdated. Is that too much to agree on?

How do you know symetric threats wont appear in the near future? You don't. Period. Same thing happened with Yugoslav wars, after the cold war ended everyone downsized to the point they were unable to respond before genocides.

You are a little kid that knows nothing and cannot see ahead as well. Worst thing is, you think you are right.

Calm down buddy..You are over sentimental about this issue..Good job, you exposed my petty bias and all but too bad you did not understand my post at all..Training, night vision goggles etc are all of secondary importance..Why i gave the example of Balkan conflicts was to underline something else..As Mosa posted earlier, i would also give the first Gulf War example and would tell how good Apaches did in that conflict but that wouldnt further my argument...Different circumstances, different threat..Relax, i am not questioning the capabilities of Apaches

I'm sentimental? This thread is full of sentimental Turks without any knowledge about basics talking crap.

Also you made a pretty good case with bolded, textsize=4 halftruths in regards to support personnel needed. You put effort in BS. Underlining only what suits you without any knowledge about what it was all about. I'd say the above definition suits you like a glove.