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[Omega007]

you are always welcome my dear.. (reference to your question about India, short answer is no. and I urge you not go get baited into that debate which is normally thrown by some Nawaz league people to get us off the main subject).

I invite Indians to my dinner table, this is an open forum you are most welcome. your views give us a different angle which is pretty much the bread and butter of any lively debate

the Nawaz league has shown itself an open supporter and apologist of Taliban & Sectarian terrorists and their usual response to this is what Pakistan army and its Spy Agency did in Bangladesh, India, Afghanistan.

no national institution should be beyond reproach and beyond criticism but that should be done from the domestic perspective in mind and from nationalistic point of view.

problem with Nawaz league is that it was gone so overboard with its personal vendetta against the Pakistan military that it domestically it has hand picked people that are chronically obsessed with Pakistan military hatred and internationally it seeks the approval and applause from countries that have their own axes to grind against Pakistan military.

the insistence for continued dialogue despite the bombs being blown up and people being beheaded and assassinated, praising the TTP in the parliament, offering prayers to Osama, condemning America over killing of Al Qaeda and TTP leadership and vowing to revolt against the army are one of the many few things that has earned Nawaz league and its supporters a lot of praise from taliban and as a gratitude they "offered " security to Nawaz league election rallies (including Jamat Islami and PTI).

the recent "incident" in karachi where Hamid Mir has received unknown number of bullet wounds (the doctors that operated him and the Geo Channel Staff has lost the ability to count) has been used by Jang/ Geo group to malign ISI and they opened up a smear campaign within 20 minutes of the incident without any prior, credible proof. when their campaign didnt work their way & public rejected their absurd claims and even resulted in criticism from fellow media outlets then Geo retracted its stories and claims and even removed the entire content from their sites .....


so hang on

where does Nawaz league fit in?


well it fits in very comfortably and snug with a smug on its face that is arch enemy was battered by one of its darling media group.Although it is in power but its still acting like a rebel and a hostile. being a government party it should have come forward and issued a statement urging Geo group to follow media code of conduct and not run a campaign based on a suspicion and dont present an allegation as a proof. but the kind of narrow minded, vindictive and tight arsed son of a goat that Nawaz Sherif is.... he preferred to stay quiet and went to visit the "injured" top dog of Journalistic awesomeness whose views match very closely to Nawaz league.

on the other hand the same Nawaz league leadership didnt even offer a word of condolence to the army men beheaded by its Taliban "brothers" and then it wants us to believe that the trial against Musharaf is not a vendetta and not against Army...although the ranting and mocking by its hawks inside and outside the.
......
life is good for the house of Sherifs... money is growing in its domestic and foreign businesses, its political rivals are reduced to their provinces, its allies have got the much needed relief to retreat safely to Afghanistan and its mortal enemy is bruised and demoralised

Many Thanks for your kind words.And for this detailed post,it was quite informative and enlightening.And I'm sorry that I got you wrong the first time.

Wrt your Nawaz Sharif,trust me,he's no way the only one,we've got such politicians just like him here in India too.The chief minister of our very state,Mamata "didi" has publicly praised the Naxalite bastards who are equally savage like your TTP on record in more than one occasion.

And just like in Pakistan,there are also in India including that one prime ministerial candidate Khujliwal who openly support the naxalite bastards - both moral and monetary!!Heck we even have a whole damn university (Jawaharlal Nehru University or JNU) that churns out future naxalite leaders and supporters.The students and professors openly cheer and ridicule the sacrifices of the soldiers (predominantly CRPF) and condemns and protests the deaths/arrests of those naxalite bastards.

So as you can see sir,our situation is not that different from each other.Now due to the densely forested and mountainous terrain where the naxalites are hiding in,it has become very tough for our security forces to defeat them decisively,as a former serviceman,you would definitely know better.I hope your forces could wipe those TTP scums out for good.Your countrymen definitely do not deserve them.

 

[asimmasood87]

Many Thanks for your kind words.And for this detailed post,it was quite informative and enlightening.And I'm sorry that I got you wrong the first time.

Wrt your Nawaz Sharif,trust me,he's no way the only one,we've got such politicians just like him here in India too.The chief minister of our very state,Mamata "didi" has publicly praised the Naxalite bastards who are equally savage like your TTP on record in more than one occasion.

And just like in Pakistan,there are also in India including that one prime ministerial candidate Khujliwal who openly support the naxalite bastards - both moral and monetary!!Heck we even have a whole damn university (Jawaharlal Nehru University or JNU) that churns out future naxalite leaders and supporters.The students and professors openly cheer and ridicule the sacrifices of the soldiers (predominantly CRPF) and condemns and protests the deaths/arrests of those naxalite bastards.

So as you can see sir,our situation is not that different from each other.Now due to the densely forested and mountainous terrain where the naxalites are hiding in,it has become very tough for our security forces to defeat them decisively,as a former serviceman,you would definitely know better.I hope your forces could wipe those TTP scums out for good.Your countrymen definitely do not deserve them.

Well said man. Appreciate it!

 

[nana41]

It is ridiculous to support an unaccountable Army Intelligence Agency in this way. Hope one day you will raise your voice to support development, HDI, pluralism of your country in the same manner.

Just as RAW Is accountable to.....?.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I think this avatar would be far better...

Pakistan, Army, ISI and the people of Pakistan ALL go hand in hand.

 

[Black Mamba1]

Just as RAW Is accountable to.....?.

RAW is completely accountable to PMO. Raw is a state instrument . It is doing its assigned job just like other Govt office. We do not have any romanticism about Raw. We never glorify RAW.

We are proud of our scientists , teachers, doctors , engineers ----even for some industrialists. We are also happy with our army. But whether I am proud about RAW? -----do not know . Never thought in that line.

Do not know why Pakistanis are so proud and protective about a spy agency ?

 

[nana41]

RAW is completely accountable to PMO. Raw is a state instrument . It is doing its assigned job just like other Govt office. We do not have any romanticism about Raw. We never glorify RAW.

We are proud of our scientists , teachers, doctors , engineers ----even for some industrialists. We are also happy with our army. But whether I am proud about RAW? -----do not know . Never thought in that line.

Do not know why Pakistanis are so proud and protective about a spy agency ?

It's naive to believe that C I A,MI5,MI6,KGB,MOSSAD and all other Intelligence Organisations are open to Civilian Accountability or scrutiny.If there is one,then its not an intelligence Agency.Your RAW is just a cover name to hide the real Intelligence Agency and it is known to people concerned .

 

[Black Mamba1]

It's naive to believe that C I A,MI5,MI6,KGB,MOSSAD and all other Intelligence Organisations are open to Civilian Accountability or scrutiny.If there is one,then its not an intelligence Agency.Your RAW is just a cover name to hide the real Intelligence Agency and it is known to people concerned .

In India PM and parliament is all powerful within the constitutional boundary. I understand it is difficult to believe sitting in Pakistan. Following is the reporting structure---

File:Indian intelligence setup.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1. Unlike ISI Raw is not a military organisation. It's head's are civilian bureaucrats and it is transferable jobs. The appointment/transfer decision is taken by PMO. Most of the Raw chiefs were from Indian Police service (IPS). One even selected from India Postal Service
2. Raw recruits employee Union Public Service Commission (UPSC) like any other Govt organisation and not from army. Few army people are there in some portfolio.
3. Raw head, although is under direct command of Prime Minister, reports on an administrative basis to the Cabinet Secretary, who reports to the Prime Minister (PM). Cabinet secretary is selected from Indian Administrative Service (IAS)

So you should understand that from structural point of view Defence personnel cannot control RAW although RAW provide information and guidance to Defence. One of our PM I.K. Gujral completely stopped "special operation" section of RAW.

But is raw just another Govt agency? No. It enjoys some special treatment obviously-

"R&AW's legal status is unusual, in that it is not an "Agency", but a "Wing" of the Cabinet Secretariat. Hence, R&AW is not answerable to the Parliament of India on any issue, which keeps it out of reach of the Right to Information Act. This exemption was granted through Section 24 read with Schedule II of the act.[18] However, information regarding the allegations of corruption and human rights violations has to be disclosed" This special status is given by Indian constitution and not a military head."

But at the end of the day RAW occupied miniscule space in Indian psyche

 

[nana41]

In India PM and parliament is all powerful within the constitutional boundary. I understand it is difficult to believe sitting in Pakistan. Following is the reporting structure---

File:Indian intelligence setup.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1. Unlike ISI Raw is not a military organisation. It's head's are civilian bureaucrats and it is transferable jobs. The appointment/transfer decision is taken by PMO. Most of the Raw chiefs were from Indian Police service (IPS). One even selected from India Postal Service
2. Raw recruits employee Union Public Service Commission (UPSC) like any other Govt organisation and not from army. Few army people are there in some portfolio.
3. Raw head, although is under direct command of Prime Minister, reports on an administrative basis to the Cabinet Secretary, who reports to the Prime Minister (PM). Cabinet secretary is selected from Indian Administrative Service (IAS)

So you should understand that from structural point of view Defence personnel cannot control RAW although RAW provide information and guidance to Defence. One of our PM I.K. Gujral completely stopped "special operation" section of RAW.

But is raw just another Govt agency? No. It enjoys some special treatment obviously-

"R&AW's legal status is unusual, in that it is not an "Agency", but a "Wing" of the Cabinet Secretariat. Hence, R&AW is not answerable to the Parliament of India on any issue, which keeps it out of reach of the Right to Information Act. This exemption was granted through Section 24 read with Schedule II of the act.[18] However, information regarding the allegations of corruption and human rights violations has to be disclosed" This special status is given by Indian constitution and not a military head."

But at the end of the day RAW occupied miniscule space in Indian psyche

RAW is GOOD,ISI is BAD....now are you happy?.

 

[Black Mamba1]

RAW is GOOD,ISI is BAD....now are you happy?.

You missed my point -----"But at the end of the day RAW occupied miniscule space in Indian psyche".

ISI will be there and should perform their assigned job. But what I cannot understand is why such glorification and mass hysteria for a mere spy agency. I am sure that Pakistan surely has many other things to glorify and Pakistanis have many more things to be proud.

 

[nana41]

You missed my point -----"But at the end of the day RAW occupied miniscule space in Indian psyche".

ISI will be there and should perform their assigned job. But what I cannot understand is why such glorification and mass hysteria for a mere spy agency. I am sure that Pakistan surely has many other things to glorify and Pakistanis have many more things to be proud.

I am not a spy-man.The reason Pakistanis are proud of their ISI is simple.This very very small budget spy organization managed to defeat first, the number 2 Super Power Russia and then number 1 Super Power of the world America by helping the plastic sandal wearing, clad in rags,carrying rifles only, the Mujahiddeen of occupied Afghanistan.

 

[Mythal]

I am not a spy-man.The reason Pakistanis are proud of their ISI is simple.This very very small budget spy organization managed to defeat first, the number 2 Super Power Russia and then number 1 Super Power of the world America by helping the plastic sandal wearing, clad in rags,carrying rifles only, the Mujahiddeen of occupied Afghanistan.

Delusional are we?
Also if this is true then isn't ISI responsible for all the terrorist attacks by these plastic sandal wearing mujahiddeens attacking Pakistan?

 

[nana41]

Delusional are we?
Also if this is true then isn't ISI responsible for all the terrorist attacks by these plastic sandal wearing mujahiddeens attacking Pakistan?

These Mujahiddeen want Pakistan to abolish capitalism and replace it with Sharia Laws which do not allow charging of Interest under any cirumstances,and make it criminal offence not to take care off financially, all those who are unemployed,widows,orphans and physically handicapped.Hang those who put women into prostitution by force ,and so much more.But since Pakistani rulers ,just like Indian rulers,believe and practice in Capitalism/Fascism,Mujahiddeen have waged a Holly war against this Govt.The problem is 99% of Pakistanis do not agree with their violent and bloody methods.

 

[Mythal]

These Mujahiddeen want Pakistan to abolish capitalism and replace it with Sharia Laws which do not allow charging of Interest under any cirumstances,and make it criminal offence not to take care off financially, all those who are unemployed,widows,orphans and physically handicapped.Hang those who put women into prostitution by force ,and so much more.But since Pakistani rulers ,just like Indian rulers,believe and practice in Capitalism/Fascism,Mujahiddeen have waged a Holly war against this Govt.The problem is 99% of Pakistanis do not agree with their violent and bloody methods.

I am not a big fan of capitalism but that does not mean that the only way to replace it is by violence. Also take care of underprivileged financially? How will you afford that? You need to pay doctors, doctors need to pay to attend college, colleges need money to create infrastructure. Nothing can be run on charity.
Everyone wants an ideal world but people do not stop and think if that is possible or not.

 

[nana41]

I am not a big fan of capitalism but that does not mean that the only way to replace it is by violence. Also take care of underprivileged financially? How will you afford that? You need to pay doctors, doctors need to pay to attend college, colleges need money to create infrastructure. Nothing can be run on charity.
Everyone wants an ideal world but people do not stop and think if that is possible or not.

Pakistan had absolutely nothing to start with,and now we have nearly 50 universities,more than a million strong defence forces,third in the production of rice,fifth in chic peas,produces more food,fruit and veg than required,but exports.And according to last week's statement by finance minister, Pakistanis(politicians,Business people and other)have $200 Billion stashed away in secret Swiss accounts and gave them warning to bring back the money before AUGUST.And less than 10% people steal and do not pay income Tax.....resources are not the hindrance,it's the will ,which this BIAJ charging ruling class does not have.Still i do not agree with Taliban about the bloody method of bringing change,it should be through constitutional way,it provide us.