Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions

[sancho]

What's the difference between PAKFA and FGFA?

Materials, cockpit design, avionics, possibly some weapons and most likely the engine (at least compared to the early Pak Fa versions that might use the 117S engine of Su 35).
That's what we know more or less so far, other differents in terms of design could come for IRST, MAWS and engine cover shapings, much is speculated in that regard too.

FGFA will be Indianized version of PAKFA. It will have HAL as its partner which will make changes according to our requirements. Israeli and French avionics that were used in Su-30 to convert into Su- 30 MKI, you can say it is analogous to it. India will be installing its own technologies and technologies from other countries that it has acquired in ToT and bought from them.

I think Sancho can explain more about it.

One can distinguish them like this:

MKI was a Russian fighter, where India were able to choose different technical options for their version, that wasn't available for any customer, similar to the F16 Block 60 deal of the UAE.

FGFA on the other side is a joint development, with both countries sharing half of this version and India beeing able to add changes according to their own requirements, be it for materials, coatings or the cockpit design. The fact that it is owned by India too, makes it more comparable to the Brahmos, MTA, or even the JF 17 co-development of Pakistan an China.

As per Sancho's opinion there was never a official statement on this project. All info or mis-info came out from the off record interview of CAS. So all is rumer mill.

That's why we will be able to see a clear pic after Putin's visit and when we actually sign the JV

The problem is, that we have very less real official statements, but very much media speculations and since Air marshal brown took over, possibly also some changes in the program itself!

It's only 1 year when Air Chief Naik retired and before he did he gave an interview with NDTV and clearly stated 214 FGFA would be procured. That rules out any speculated early Pak Fa procurement and he never even mentioned any single seat versions at all. He also stated that the number of FGFA for IAF could go up to 250 or even 300 fighters in earlier statements, just like FGFA was always considered as the twin seat version, once because it fits to IAFs doctrine, secondly if offers more export potential as we can see with the Su 30s. The Russians even offered HAL to design the twin seat version, as a part of their contribution!
Since Air marshal Brown took over, we have seen much speculations about numbers and what version we get, but often based on "unnamed" official sources, or from what the Air marshal is said to have stated (no quotes!), so we have the problem to figure out what is real and what is not.

 

[Gessler]

Unfortunately Browne bhai wont be ACM by the time FGFA is inducted.

I think the IAF began paying less attention to twin-seat variant becoz the upgraded Super Sukhoi
which includes many tech originally developed for PAKFA could be enough to train new FGFA pilots,,,
just a guess.

 

[sancho]

I think the IAF began paying less attention to twin-seat variant becoz the upgraded Super Sukhoi which includes many tech originally developed for PAKFA could be enough to train new FGFA pilots,,,
just a guess.

The one has nothing to do with the other and is not correct as well. Super 30 actually might only share AESA radar as the base tech, but not necessarily the same one, neither will it have the same engine, since it's just under development, same goes for most weapons as well.
The switch to single seat is mainly bad, because we could have joined the Pak Fa development way earlier and the Indian contribution in the design would be less than initially planned. We have a tendency to make things more complicated as it should be and this would be just another prove for it.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The one has nothing to do with the other and is not correct as well. Super 30 actually might only share AESA radar as the base tech, but not necessarily the same one, neither will it have the same engine, since it's just under development, same goes for most weapons as well.
The switch to single seat is mainly bad, because we could have joined the Pak Fa development way earlier and the Indian contribution in the design would be less than initially planned. We have a tendency to make things more complicated as it should be and this would be just another prove for it.

@sancho is it not highy speculative at this point? No real specs have come out on either the Super Sukhoi or the PAF-FA/FGFA. Also there are many conflicting reports about numbers, specs, schedule etc Nothing is clear right now.

 

[sancho]

@sancho is it not highy speculative at this point? No real specs have come out on either the Super Sukhoi or the PAF-FA/FGFA. Also there are many conflicting reports about numbers, specs, schedule etc Nothing is clear right now.

We do know that we evaluate BARS AESA or Zhuk AE as radars for Super 30 upgrade and both are not the AESAs for Pak Fa / FGFA. We do know that Russia is mordernising it's weapon package, mainly woth folding wings to fit them into the weapon bays of Pak Fa, while India wants Astra, Brahmos and even Nirbhay missiles for MKI. We do know that the 117S engine is offered for Su 30 upgrades, but we know that this is not the engine that India wants for FGFA.
So there are certain things that we can find out of the mass of speculations and cheap reporting.

 

[Gessler]

Is this the 4th prototype or just PS?

 

[Kompromat]

Is this the 4th prototype or just PS?

Photoshop..

 

[kurup]

^^^^ Orginal

 

[Arzamas 16]

FGFA isn't some export version its the Indianised version of PAK-FA n most possibly more superior due to induction of various Indian Foreign tech(SU 30 vs MKI) as India is a partner in the Project n not just a buyer although India is gonna operate both PAKFA n FGFA...

The export version will be a water down version of PAK-FA or FGFA as per customers requirement...

Russia is rapidly closing the gap with Europe when it comes AESA development and other avionics, and since Russian R&D budget is only getting bigger every year and Europe's is shrinking we will soon surpass them. The only way FGFA will be superior to the PAK FA if get US tech which never going to happen.

 

[Kompromat]

FGFA isn't some export version its the Indianised version of PAK-FA n most possibly more superior due to induction of various Indian Foreign tech(SU 30 vs MKI) as India is a partner in the Project n not just a buyer although India is gonna operate both PAKFA n FGFA...

The export version will be a water down version of PAK-FA or FGFA as per customers requirement...

Dream on....

 

[sancho]

Russia is rapidly closing the gap with Europe when it comes AESA development and other avionics, and since Russian R&D budget is only getting bigger every year and Europe's is shrinking we will soon surpass them. The only way FGFA will be superior to the PAK FA if get US tech which never going to happen.

Or Israeli tech or French tech, in certain areas even Indian tech. Russias defence budget is increasing again, but still not even close to the level that would be needed to modernise your forces in the way it would be needed, that's why you need us as a partner, that's why you keep trying to get the Brazilians as a partner too and the simple fact that Russia is trying to buy more and more Israeli/European arms & techs, shows, that they remain to be superior in several fields.
However, for Russia it will be a clear advantage on the export market to offer Russian aircrafts with European avionics and engines, which are more reliable and capable, while the costs will remain reasonable. Co-developments with Europeans are even better and might be interesting for many ex-soviet countries or the Arab Spring countries, which want to modernise as well.

Dream on....

No need to, because he is right! An export version is a downgraded version with less capable techs than the original customer has. The US for example sells their F16s in most cases with way less capable EW systems, one reasons why the Israelis customised their fighters, or why countries that could afford it, bought European fighters with better systems.
Same goes for Russia, which uses IRBIS-E PESA radars in their Su 35s, an upgraded version of our BARS radar, that was used only for export Su 30s. That made the Su 35 so far the best Flanker version, but that will change with the Super 30 upgrade, since it will add AESA radar, modernised avionics...
FGFA on the other side is not a simple procurement for India, but a co-developement, with the same or even more capable Russian techs, that they might use in their early versions (117S engine of the Su 35 vs new developed AL 41 engine), while we add a higher focus on a low RCS, can add better avionics and if needed even better weapons, although I think we will stick to an Indo-Russian weapon package.
So when we get the best of Russia and further improve it, or add more capable other parts, our version should be more capable isn't it?

 

[Sergi]

Dream on....

If he is wrong Why not explain your opinion than just a rant ???

 

[Yogi]

Russia is rapidly closing the gap with Europe when it comes AESA development and other avionics, and since Russian R&D budget is only getting bigger every year and Europe's is shrinking we will soon surpass them. The only way FGFA will be superior to the PAK FA if get US tech which never going to happen.

Just answer my simple question :

If Russians have everything best of the class from onboard sensors to avionics on PAKFA then what was the need for FGFA ???

If mean after all we r paying half of the R&D cost then why would we go for something less if Russian got best everything(2nd only to the US)???

I m not undermining the Russian competence in aircraft manufacturing but only stating that there r some gadgets n electronics or even avionics where Israel or French perform slightly better than the Russians...
If u still don't agree than u can compare the original SU30 with MKI in terms of avionics n on board system n u'll get ur answer....

 

[Yogi]

Dream on....

Its funny to see even the MODs trolling on PDF n posting one liners....

Whats there in my post that u didn't understand???

We r contributing roughly $6 billion in R&D for PAKFA that will ensure we get everything what the Russian got(no waterdown version) with full TOT plus we'll incorporate the best from Israel, France n India to make it FGFA...

N ofcourse all the third countries will get the water down versions like every other deal even Chinese weapons in Pak forces...

 

[kurup]

Zoom the above pic to see incredible design details of T50