Strength of alliance between India-Isreal

[angeldust]

Agree with most of your post, except the part about Jews. There were Syrians, Canaanites and others living there before the Jews took over. The Israeli position is that, out of 5000 years of history, the period of Jewish control of Palestine/Israel is 'special' and entitles the Jews to 'reclaim' that land. Evidently the Arabs living there for the last 2000 years doesn't count.

I meant between the three dominant religions in question, slugging it out for control of the Holy / Promised Land. And I was not debating the morality of it all. Merely pointing out that through time, when it comes to a clash of faiths, morality goes out of the window. Again and again. And that neither Christianity nor Islam have been any better in this regard. Definitely not when it comes to respecting the rights of the existing religion of the land being occupied.

 

[Developereo]

That's the point, it started as Pakistan-centric not anti-Islamic centric, Pakistan isn't synonymous to Islam. Although in recent years it has seized to remain mono-dimensional as it had been before 2000.

Absolutely. I never claimed that India is anti-Islam or that it's motivation in dealing with Israel is anti-Islam.

What I am saying is that Israel discriminates against Muslims on the basis of their religion and, by supporting Israel, India is rewarding this behavior.

 

[LaBong]

Absolutely. I never claimed that India is anti-Islam or that it's motivation in dealing with Israel is anti-Islam.

What I am saying is that Israel discriminates against Muslims on the basis of their religion and, by supporting Israel, India is rewarding this behavior.

Oh come on by that same yardstick India also anti-Hindu and anti-Christian by having trade and relationship with Arabs where discrimination on the basis of religion is institutionalized.

 

[Vinod2070]

Absolutely. I never claimed that India is anti-Islam or that it's motivation in dealing with Israel is anti-Islam.

What I am saying is that Israel discriminates against Muslims on the basis of their religion and, by supporting Israel, India is rewarding this behavior.

Is China also rewarding the anti-Islam behavior, whatever their motivation?

Same for all the countries that have any sort of relations with Israel?

Did Pakistan and Afghan rebels also do that during the Afghan war?

 

[KS]

Both these issues are debated hotly in several threads, as you guys know.
Given the past policies of Pakistani administrations, we are stuck with certain realities vis-a-vis our foreign dependence.

No I mean ; what is your principled stand on this ?? You are for or against the F-16s ?

BTW you should reject the J-10s and F-22Ps too as China has the exact same position as India on Israel - Palestine.

Exactly. The India-Israel military relationship is Pakistan-centric.

Lets just say Indian defence - centric as you longer enjoy the status of the sole rival. We have friends across the Eastern border too.

And recently most of our reinforcements like the MKIs, Akash SAMs etc are going there and not to the Western Border.

Was expecting something like that...
I never said IAF helped you out, I said Israel supplied you with high altitude aircraft.
You guys ridiculed my claim, and I proved you wrong.
Now I will sit back and enjoy as you try to wiggle out of it.

Lets just say you got it completely wrong ; on second research there were no Herons in IAF nor in IsAF during 1999.

IDF first bought Herons only in 2005 - Link

And prove to me that the Searcher UAVs were sold to India when the Kargil war was going on. Because only then your claim holds ground.

A deal fulfilled by Israel before a war especially when the war was not anticipated cannot be called Pakistan-centric not can the help be considered bail-out from the kargil war.

Of course, when anyone suffers injustice, that situation is the world to them.

Every victim of any crime anywhere feels their situation is the most important. To a guy getting stabbed in an alley, it is a personal holocaust but, of course, the situation is not comparable.

Surely the situation was grave enough for one single condemnation even which did not come from the Pak Govt.

Oh, I understand perfectly well that India is looking after its national interests. I never denied that.
My point is that India is sacrificing a moral stand for national interests.
Of course you are happy with the bargain, and of course it is beneficial to you -- that part was never under debate.

Which nation doesn't ? Tell me one. And certainly its not your dear Pakistan.

BTW as Abir said we are adopting a more balanced approach after the Arabs indifference to us. We just realised that they are not so important after all.

 

[Developereo]

And that neither Christianity nor Islam have been any better in this regard. Definitely not when it comes to respecting the rights of the existing religion of the land being occupied.

The ancient Hebrews were evicted from Israel by the Romans long before Islam even existed. As for 20th century displacement of Jews from Arab countries, I am sure there was some arm-twisting, but I suspect the vast majority left voluntarily for the same reason Jews in Europe and Russia and the Americas left -- to reclaim the Promised Land.

Oh come on by that same yardstick India also anti-Hindu and anti-Christian by having trade and relationship with Arabs where discrimination on the basis of religion is institutionalized.

I believe all countries that institutionalize discrimination should be held accountable. But the oil sheikhdome will dodge the bullet, for obvious reasons, until the oil runs out.

Is China also rewarding the anti-Islam behavior, whatever their motivation?

Same for all the countries that have any sort of relations with Israel?

Did Pakistan and Afghan rebels also do that during the Afghan war?

Yes, any country that does business with Israel is turning a blind eye to their human rights violations.
I don't know that Israel helped out in the Afghan/Soviet war -- certainly incidentally, but the main supporter was the USA.

No I mean ; what is your principled stand on this ?? You are for or against the F-16s ?

Neither America nor China are anti-Muslim. There are times when the US has acted against Muslim countries, mostly at the behest of the Israeli lobby, but America has also been very helpful to Muslim countries throughout the world. Similarly, China has helped a lot of Muslim countries and continues to do so.

 

[KS]

Absolutely. I never claimed that India is anti-Islam or that it's motivation in dealing with Israel is anti-Islam.

What I am saying is that Israel discriminates against Muslims on the basis of their religion and, by supporting Israel, India is rewarding this behavior.

There you go, exposed once again : These are some of your posts that claimed that India is joining an anti-Islam alliance.

Go eat your words fanboi.

it is relevant to ask why is India joining an anti-Islam alliance?

Israel is anti-Islam by virtue of its very Constution. Any (military) ally of Israel is also anti-Islam.

Your obsession with Islam is clouding your ability to focus on the issue, which is India-Israel relationship.

This is on first glance. If I read the posts once again there might be a dozen more.

 

[kriish]

India's defence relationship are a legitimate matter of debate for Pakistanis. And the original article frames the relationship in terms of the war on terror, in which Pakistan is also a central figure.

it says Israel helped india on its war on terrorism and it does not deny that the 26/11 which is mentioned in it did happen because of pakistan..... here they mention the fact............. that doesnot mean that u should talk about indian muslims and palistean cause

 

[KS]

Neither America nor China are anti-Muslim. There are times when the US has acted against Muslim countries, mostly at the behest of the Israeli lobby, but America has also been very helpful to Muslim countries throughout the world. Similarly, China has helped a lot of Muslim countries and continues to do so.

You are just a fanboi.

Here are your early post :

Israel is anti-Islam by virtue of its very Constution. Any (military) ally of Israel is also anti-Islam.

So US and China are anti-Islam in every sense.

And what about the remaining part of post # 380. Lost for words ? Or thoroughly exposed.

 

[Vinod2070]

It is an irrelevant canard, unless you think the Muslim invasion of India is somehow relevant to the India-Israel relationship.

It is not. It was just to expose your moral pretensions about human rights. That has been accomplished.

When the topic is A, and you talk about B, it means you think B is somehow related to A.

You are tying yourself in knots by imagining stuff. Usual from you.

In your warped mind, the subjugation of Palestinians is somehow justified because Muslims invaded India all those centuries ago.

Hallucination again. I never said that.

Once again, the issue is not 'caring for Palestinians'. We all care for them.
The issue is whether the oppressor nation of Israel should be held accountable.

Do that if you can. Don't bring India into it.

India-Israel relations are not about it as any other country's relations.

We have relations with Pakistan as well. Doesn't mean we condone your support for Taliban and all those women dying without medical care or if they were lucky enough to get it, to be operated without anesthetics (Women are supposed to bear pain in that warped Taliban ideology). Doesn't mean we support all those floggings or Hazara genocide.

We are not responsible for everything that a country does that we don't support.

Ah, the Islam-bashing, right on cue.
Since you still don't get it, the topic is Israel, not world history. You can't excuse one crime by listing a litany of crimes throughout history and saying "either we address all of these or we address none".

Effective in exposing your hypocrisy though. As I said, India has nothing to do with that history. We don't need to justify the Hamas terror or Israeli actions.

Indeed. I've called you out on your utter ignorance of Kargil, Turkey, Egypt, China, etc, etc.
It seems, other than medieval India, you haven't a clue what's happening in the world around you. Not even your own country's history.

I see someone is very impressed with his own supposed knowledge!

It is your ignorance and hypocrisy that has been exposed. The readers can draw their conclusions.

I have seen another Pakistani who claims to be very knowledgeable (and an academic and scholar to boot), trying to talk down to others. Seems to be a common trait as he is also quite an Islamist.

No, my simplistic friend. The situation with China and Israel is far more complex than you think. Suffice it to say that Pakistan eventually benefits from this relationship also.

I didn't even claim anything about the complexity or the lack of it of Sino-Israeli relationship. Your ignorance has been exposed, so is the tremendously prejudiced mindset that seeks to define everything you have no clue of.

The crux of the matter is, your training leaves you incapable of looking at anything to do with India objectively. I guess this extends to everything. You guys are strongly opinionated and self righteous, only it is built on a foundation of lies and untruths.

Yes, it comes across that you don't understand geopolitics beyond India. And I am sure you prefer to remain ignorant, lest you become 'more Chinese than the Chinese' or 'more Israeli than the Jews'.

Your ignorance is telling and your tall claims don't impress. You probably think you are a big geopolitical expert, your posts betray none of that expertise.

The facts are on display: the Israelis are very upfront about their policies and I have already stated them earleir in this thread.
People know. The fact that they chose to rationalize them away is another matter.

Still they give full legal rights to Muslims in Israel, something not reciprocated in your own country (with all those blasphemy laws and in most Islamic countries). You don't have issues with any of that but expect final and perfect treatment from everyone else!

Precisely. They look at it from a materialistic view to disregard unsavory truths.

That's your view. Doesn't mean it is correct.

Religion is the defining factor in that territorial dispute. Again, if you had the slightest smatttering of knowledge about Zionism, you would have known this.

Don't assume my knowledge. People like you with little knowledge always do that. As they say: little knowledge is dangerous.

In Haryana we say: "Thotha chanaa baaje ghanaa". Won't translate it literally but it means the same.

I know what Zionism is and I am not about to speak for it, unlike you, who claims to speak for everyone.

India-Israel relationship has nothing to do with Zionism.

On the contrary, it strengthens the assertion that Israel discriminates on the basis of religion.

You claimed first that it is anti-Islam. Not you claim it "discriminates on the basis of religion". Is the former your problem or the latter?

Pakistan also "discriminates on the basis of religion", so do most Islamic countries. Any issues with that too?

Because most 'Christians' are not religious, and the ones that are tend to believe in Jesus' second coming which requires Israel exist as a Jewish state. Hence they support Israel. Now, I am sure you are blissfully ignorant of this aspect of Christian support for Israel and will claim that I am making it up.

Again come out of the "apne mooh miyan mithoo" syndrome. And don't assume what I know or don't know.

I know Islamists like also make claims on behalf of Christians, that they are not religious, that their Bible is corrupted and so on.

Then you also claim that the neo-conservatives deliberately killed Americans in 9/11 for some conspiracy that you can't very logically define, just something along the lines that they wanted to destroy a smaller building and so killed so many to create a distraction.

You don't make sense. Your self righteousness doesn't make sense.

 

[Developereo]

Lets just say you got it completely wrong ; on second research there were no Herons in IAF nor in IsAF during 1999.

I am quoting an Indian website referring to a statement by an Air Marshal PS Ahluwalia during the Kargil war. Are you saying they are wrong?

Once again, from that website:
IntelliBriefs: How Israel helped India win the Kargil War
Israel sprung to India's aid for providing the desperately-needed imagery about Pakistani positions on the Kargil heights.

Seems pretty clear the equipment was supplied hurriedly during the war.

Surely the situation was grave enough for one single condemnation even which did not come from the Pak Govt.

And it should have; at least a letter of concern that the situation should be handled peacefully.

There you go, exposed once again : These are some of your posts that claimed that India is joining an anti-Islam alliance.

The alliance is ostensibly an anti-terror alliance which is reasonable enough. If this were other countries, I would take them at their word but, given the facts about Israel, there is every reason to suspect that Israel will push for a wider anti-Muslim agenda. This is not idle speculation, given the history of how the Israeli lobby in the US manipulates the war of terror.

 

[Vinod2070]

See below...



IntelliBriefs: How Israel helped India win the Kargil War

Tel Aviv stepped in with unmanned reconnaissance aircraft or drones in the battle zone to assist India direct its war effort. This was one force multiplication Pakistan had not reckoned with.
[...]
The Israeli Heron and Searcher UAVs were critically useful for target information, as most of India's aerial surveillance aircraft were either too quick, or vulnerable to enemy missile fire.

An Indian Air Force Canberra snooping over the Batalik was hit by a Pakistani stinger on May 21, exposing the limitations of India's photo reconnaissance platforms.

So some drones is what you were talking of! That won the war for India and not all the artillery and the infantry that sacrificed their lives to make those intruders run like the cowards they were?

Basically, you are saying that Israel can defeat Pakistan with loose change? Something it can spare while still keeping enough for Arabs?

Only in your mind.
According to you, anyone who talks about Muslim issues is an Islamist obsessed with the ummah.
Anyone who talks about Arabs is being more Arab than the Arabs.

No, when that person only blames non-Muslims and hides from all Islamic issues, that is when he qualifies.

You qualify. In first class.

If some one has an Indian flag, I assume they are an Indian.

You label people "Indian" who have no Indian flag. Another lie exposed.

If they constantly derail the topic, I figure they are a troll.

Indian troll? You are one of the biggest troll. Converting this topic into an issue about Islam and Indian Muslims. And showing your hypocrisy consistently.

And if they are still obsessed with the Muslim invasion of India centuries ago and use words like ummah, infidel and kaffir, I reckon they are an Islamophobe.

I already said it was to expose your moral pretensions and it worked like a charm.

OK, you can call it a hallucination if you want to.
I doubt you will understand the issues even if I explained them.

You have to know something to be able to explain.

I sincerely doubt it, considering how you keep jumping from one off-topic issue to the next every time you lack a rebuttal.

It is you who makes every inconvenient issue "off topic". It doesn't work. Sorry.

 

[Vinod2070]

In your warped mind, the subjugation of Palestinians is somehow justified because Muslims invaded India all those centuries ago.

But in your warped mind, that Islamic invaders' brutality was justified by what happened to Buddhism in the region?

So would the sack of Baghdad by Halaku Khan and murder of millions of Muslims by Mongols be justified by the internecine or inter sect warfare between Arabs as per your warped logic?

 

[Wonderer]

---------------------dup------------------------

 

[Developereo]

[...]
Pakistan
[...]
Taliban
[...]
women
[...]
neo-conservatives
[...]
9/11

Good Lord!
Another litany of off-topic diversion attempts...

Look, if you can't address the topic at hand -- based on your demonstrated lack of knowledge on everything from Israel to Turkey to Egypt to China to whatever -- just say so. There's no need to go on dragging out the discussion by bringing in one irrelevant canard after another and then crying 'hypocrite' when I refuse to play your silly game of derailment.

You are acting like a child who doesn't want to eat the food in front of him and then throws a tantrum because he can't eat the food on the parents' plate.