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Doctor Hoodbhoy needs to consult a doctor for his abnormal mental tendencies. :lol:

His hatred for Pakistan and Pakistanis knows no limit.

Hoodbhoy is an Orientalist, a white-wannabe.

He believes that any woman in a hijab is a fundamentalist and any man with a beard is a terrorist -- I'm sorry, any Muslim man with a beard. He claims that Sindhis and Balochis are not patriotic to Pakistan. He has some personal bug up his as$ against the Pakistan army, government and even the judiciary. He constantly raises alarms about Pakistan's nuclear arsenal even when the US administration is satisfied.

He is good as a physics professor and has some good ideas about reforming education, but he makes a fool of himself when he ventures into politics.

The man is a shameless attention seeker who will blab anything just to get on TV.
 
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The fact remains that what people feel is one thing but how they choose to live is another. That is civilized behavior.

The point was to dispel the myth that Arabs and Jews are living happily side by side in Israel. They are living, yes, but Arabs live under a shadow of deep mistrust and bigotry. It is only the law that mitigates open discrimination to some extent and, given the poll numbes, laws can be changed subtly while still adhering to the letter, if not the spirit, of equality.

I acknowledge differences in national or group temperament and ethics. This demands judgment and lets no one group escape it by claiming to be just as good or bad as anyone else. The possibility of moral superiority between them exists for specific choices and contexts. That is not the same as making a blanket judgment on a group. (I can make a supposition that some sort of moral summation is possible but I think this is beyond my abilities.)

To some extend I will agree with you. There is much in the Jewish culture that is good. Arab culture would benefit from adopting those traits -- traits that it once had and has lost over the centuries. Conversely, there are Arab cultural traits that the Jews would find beneficial. The point being that openness to new ideas is essential for cultures to remain dynamic and relevant in the face of change.
 
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ONCE AGAIN INDIA ISRAEL THREAD HAS BEEN HIJACKED BY PAKISTANIS FOR INDIA Vs PAKISTAN..................... IF MOD's DON'T TAKE ACTION OF SUCH THINGS MORE MEMBERS WILL LOOSE INTEREST IN THE FORUM AND LEAVE AND NOW IM BEING PUSHED TO SUCH A SITUATION........ I KNOW ITS OFF TOPIC BUT WHO CARES ANYWAYS..................... THE TREND HAS BEEN LIKE THIS FOR A LONG TIME NOW.................. CHECK OUT THE FIRST POST AND THE LAST WHERE IT HAS LEAD TO WHAT THE HELL ARE THE MOD's DOING.............
 
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Like I said, you are still wallowing in your anti-Islam hatred based on alleged events hundreds of years ago.

Stating facts doesn't mean hatred except for people like you who want to run away from facts. Just because they are inconvenient now (they were a source of pride then and even now to many of you).

We have to know what we are dealing with. Taliban are no better than the earlier ones. They are just going back to the roots.

For people like you the equation is simple:

Muslims invaded India, therefore
Muslims are evil, therefore
Anyone who kills Muslims is good.

This is hallucination. As I said, don't try to deduce when you have a problem reading straight.

Anyway, the Muslims in the subcontinent have nothing to do with those invaders. You were equally a victim of those barbarians.

It is like if all Christins in Pakistan should support USA aggression on Pakistan just because they share the religion, to me it sounds ridiculous. Changing religion doesn't change your identity and shouldn't change your loyalties.

The Iranians lost millions of lives fighting Saddam, they didn't welcome him just because he was a fellow Muslim.

To repeat, you claimed that only Arabs may care for Palestinians; anyone else who does is is being 'more Arab than Arabs'.
You see the Palestinian cause, not as human rights issue, but an Arab issue.
That shows your tendency to view the matter through a racial prism.

No, I have nothing against anyone caring for Palestinians. Even India supports them.

It is your twisting and stretching the issue that I talked about.

Also your (and fellow Islamists') selective look at human rights issues has long been apparent. So you lose credibility.

The biggest human rights violations are taking place in Islamic countries (of cpurse that is off-topic for you, always will be).

China's relationship with Israel is a separate subject and is part of a greater game of chess between China and the West. Given your ignorance of geopolitical issues outside of ancient India, I seriously doubt you would have the faintest clue what game is afoot there.

Your prentensions to great knowledge are laughable given what has been demonstrated here.

You need to come down from your high horse. You have no credibilty as a great fountain of knowledge.

Now, coming back to the Chinese relations with Israel, see your sudden urge to defend it and try to explain it in terms of bigger issues. Does it take away from it's supposed anti-Islam slant? Same for Islamic country's relations.

Only in case of India, your innate needs cause you to define it in terms that you want to. For all others the reasons are more complex?

You do understand what all this comes across as or I need to be more explicit?


Not true.
I claim that Israel is anti-Muslim, but not everybody recognizes this fact.

And no one buys your claim. Not India, not China, not the world and not many Pakistanis who want relations with Israel.

Again not true.
I never claimed that countries that do business with Israel are anti-Islam; only that they wilfully ignore or rationalize away Israel's discriminatory policies.

You think so. They don't. They don't need to. They don't look at the issue from a religious prism like you.

Absolutely true. It doesn't mean all Muslims around the world since they have no interaction with Israel. But the Arabs were evicted from their homes in Palestine because they are Muslim (or Christian) and they are refused to return because they are Muslim (or Christian).

It has more to do with the territorial conflict. Religion is secondary. As you are acknowledging that Arab Christians are also a victim, it blows away your anti Islam thingy to smithereen.

Now, no one considers Israel anti Christian for that dispute. By the same token it is not anti Islam.

You have dug a deep hole for yourself and can't get out of it even with all the mental gymnastics.
 
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Hoodbhoy is an Orientalist, a white-wannabe.

He believes that any woman in a hijab is a fundamentalist and any man with a beard is a terrorist -- I'm sorry, any Muslim man with a beard. He claims that Sindhis and Balochis are not patriotic to Pakistan. He has some personal bug up his as$ against the Pakistan army, government and even the judiciary. He constantly raises alarms about Pakistan's nuclear arsenal even when the US administration is satisfied.

He is good as a physics professor and has some good ideas about reforming education, but he makes a fool of himself when he ventures into politics.

The man is a shameless attention seeker who will blab anything just to get on TV.

Funny how we think of many of you as wannabes too.

Only in your case it is about wanting to be more Arabs, Persians, turks or now even Chinese than the original ones.

As many astute Pakistani observers agree, it has a lot to do with your identity crisis. The issues within Pakistan are less important than the Ummah issues.

For example, the attack on the Turkish flotilla caused more anguish in many of you than much bigger terrorist attacks within Pakistan. Many more such examples can be given.

This concern is not reciprocated back by the Ummah though. ;)
 
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Absolutely true. It doesn't mean all Muslims around the world since they have no interaction with Israel. But the Arabs were evicted from their homes in Palestine because they are Muslim (or Christian) and they are refused to return because they are Muslim (or Christian).

This is precisely what makes you an Ummah spokesman that you so much want to deny.

This is not an issue for the vast majority of the world's Muslims and even for the vast majority of Arabs.

You still choose to get so exercised by it. A typical Ummah flagbearer.

If it feels like an Islamist, if it tastes like an Islamist and if it smells like an Islamist, it must be an Islamist I am dealing with.
 
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ONCE AGAIN INDIA ISRAEL THREAD HAS BEEN HIJACKED BY PAKISTANIS FOR INDIA Vs PAKISTAN

India's defence relationship are a legitimate matter of debate for Pakistanis. And the original article frames the relationship in terms of the war on terror, in which Pakistan is also a central figure.
 
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India's defence relationship are a legitimate matter of debate for Pakistanis. And the original article frames the relationship in terms of the war on terror, in which Pakistan is also a central figure.

Yes, and just be open that this is your real concern.

Why go through all that sham when this was the real issue all along?

As I said, we have no interest in getting a single square inch of Pakistan. You have no power to take a single square inch from India and your PA knows it since 1965 and definitely after 1971.

I am happy Pakistan is only of marginal interest to India now. Just something to be managed while we move on to bigger things. You will realize in time that seeking parity with India is futile and unnecessary.

We are two totally different countries now with little in common, definitely not our worldview.
 
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Ummah issues.

This is precisely what makes you an Ummah spokesman that you so much want to deny.

There you go again. Thanks for confirming what a dyed-in-the wool Islamophobe you are.
Like I said, only hardcore Islamophobes get all bent out of shape about the ummah and infidels and kaffirs.

You see people, not as individuals, but as groups. According to you, only an Arab may care about Palestinians, only a Turk can understand Turkish policy, and only an Egyptian can know about the disconnect between their government's policy and public sentiment.

Given your abject ignorance of just about every subject we have touched upon here, I am not surprised that you feel that way. Just because you don't know what else is going on in the world outside India, doesn't mean others share your love of ignorance.

I suggest you educate yourself about the history and geopolitical forces surrounding Israel. It doesn't mean you will become 'more Arab than Arabs' or 'more Turkish than Turks'. It will simply means you will be able to conduct an informed discussion on the subject without running away into 'Islamic invasion of India' every time you are at a loss for a rebuttal.

Yes, and just be open that this is your real concern.

I have already explained why the relationship with Israel merits special consideration as opposed to India's relationship with France or Russia or the US. I am not going to repeat myself, but I recommend you read the last few pages to educate yourself.

I am happy Pakistan is only of marginal interest to India now.

And yet you guys are obsessed with Pakistan. ;)
Even your relationship with Israel, the topic of this thread, is centered around Pakistan.
 
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The US involvement was much later -- after the tide had turned in India's favor. I am talking about earlier in the war when Pakistan had captured key peaks and India was floundering until Israel came to your aid with high-altitude airplanes. Feel free to google to educate yourself.

Which planes were those? What high altitude that Indian planes couldn't fly to?

Even the highest peaks of the world can be overflown by any Indian plane that has been in the inventory for decades. You obviously know little and are but just a fanboy.

So did you find out what "high-altitude airplanes" Israel supplied to India? And how that changed the game?

As far as I know and from all I have read, air power was not the decisive factor. It was the good old artillery and infantry.

Israel may have supplied stuff and it may have proved important then but let's not lose perspective. Israel can't have reserves that will change the balance in a fight between much bigger countries.

Just to give an example, all of the Jews in the world are less than Karachi's population.
 
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There you go again. Thanks for confirming what a dyed-in-the wool Islamophobe you are.
Like I said, only hardcore Islamophobes get all bent out of shape about the ummah and infidels and kaffirs.

Does that make you an Islamophobe? You only don't use those terms but are all about them.

You see people, not as individuals, but as groups..

Funny coming from you. You label people as Indian, Indian troll, Islamiphobe and so on.

According to you, only an Arab may care about Palestinians, only a Turk can understand Turkish policy, and only an Egyptian can know about the disconnect between their government's policy and public sentiment

Hallucination. I just questioned your pretensions to omniscience.

Given your abject ignorance of just about every subject we have touched upon here, I am not surprised that you feel that way. Just because you don't know what else is going on in the world outside India, doesn't mean others share your love of ignorance.

Good. I knew this was going to comer after your own ignorance has been thoroughly exposed. So also the hypocrisy.

I suggest you educate yourself about the history and geopolitical forces surrounding Israel. It doesn't mean you will become 'more Arab than Arabs' or 'more Turkish than Turks'. It will simply means you will be able to conduct an informed discussion on the subject without running away into 'Islamic invasion of India' every time you are at a loss for a rebuttal.

Hallucinating again. For all you know, I may know more than you about those issues, without the benefit of that Islamist lens to look at it though.

I have already explained why the relationship with Israel merits special consideration as opposed to India's relationship with France or Russia or the US. I am not going to repeat myself, but I recommend you read the last few pages to educate yourself.

You may have any special consideration you want. Don't preach to us.

And yet you guys are obsessed with Pakistan. ;)
Even your relationship with Israel, the topic of this thread, is centered around Pakistan.

Nope. You are msssing it as usual.
 
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Bt Developereo :

The US involvement was much later -- after the tide had turned in India's favor. I am talking about earlier in the war when Pakistan had captured key peaks and India was floundering until Israel came to your aid with high-altitude airplanes. Feel free to google to educate yourself.

Rather you should consult Uncle Google first and remove the ignorance.

Israel just provided us the LGBs and retrofitted them on the Mirages of the IAF.
 
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Stating facts doesn't mean hatred except for people like you who want to run away from facts. Just because they are inconvenient now (they were a source of pride then and even now to many of you).

It is an irrelevant canard, unless you think the Muslim invasion of India is somehow relevant to the India-Israel relationship.

This is hallucination. As I said, don't try to deduce when you have a problem reading straight.

When the topic is A, and you talk about B, it means you think B is somehow related to A.

In your warped mind, the subjugation of Palestinians is somehow justified because Muslims invaded India all those centuries ago.

No, I have nothing against anyone caring for Palestinians. Even India supports them.

Once again, the issue is not 'caring for Palestinians'. We all care for them.
The issue is whether the oppressor nation of Israel should be held accountable.

Also your (and fellow Islamists') selective look at human rights issues has long been apparent. So you lose credibility.

The biggest human rights violations are taking place in Islamic countries (of cpurse that is off-topic for you, always will be).

Ah, the Islam-bashing, right on cue.
Since you still don't get it, the topic is Israel, not world history. You can't excuse one crime by listing a litany of crimes throughout history and saying "either we address all of these or we address none".

Your prentensions to great knowledge are laughable given what has been demonstrated here.

Indeed. I've called you out on your utter ignorance of Kargil, Turkey, Egypt, China, etc, etc.
It seems, other than medieval India, you haven't a clue what's happening in the world around you. Not even your own country's history.

Now, coming back to the Chinese relations with Israel, see your sudden urge to defend it and try to explain it in terms of bigger issues. Does it take away from it's supposed anti-Islam slant? Same for Islamic country's relations.

No, my simplistic friend. The situation with China and Israel is far more complex than you think. Suffice it to say that Pakistan eventually benefits from this relationship also.

You do understand what all this comes across as or I need to be more explicit?

Yes, it comes across that you don't understand geopolitics beyond India. And I am sure you prefer to remain ignorant, lest you become 'more Chinese than the Chinese' or 'more Israeli than the Jews'.

And no one buys your claim. Not India, not China, not the world and not many Pakistanis who want relations with Israel.

The facts are on display: the Israelis are very upfront about their policies and I have already stated them earleir in this thread.
People know. The fact that they chose to rationalize them away is another matter.

You think so. They don't. They don't need to. They don't look at the issue from a religious prism like you.

Precisely. They look at it from a materialistic view to disregard unsavory truths.

It has more to do with the territorial conflict. Religion is secondary.

Religion is the defining factor in that territorial dispute. Again, if you had the slightest smatttering of knowledge about Zionism, you would have known this.

As you are acknowledging that Arab Christians are also a victim, it blows away your anti Islam thingy to smithereen.

On the contrary, it strengthens the assertion that Israel discriminates on the basis of religion.

Now, no one considers Israel anti Christian for that dispute.

Because most 'Christians' are not religious, and the ones that are tend to believe in Jesus' second coming which requires Israel exist as a Jewish state. Hence they support Israel. Now, I am sure you are blissfully ignorant of this aspect of Christian support for Israel and will claim that I am making it up.
 
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So did you find out what "high-altitude airplanes" Israel supplied to India? And how that changed the game?

See below...

Rather you should consult Uncle Google first and remove the ignorance.

Israel just provided us the LGBs and retrofitted them on the Mirages of the IAF.

IntelliBriefs: How Israel helped India win the Kargil War

Tel Aviv stepped in with unmanned reconnaissance aircraft or drones in the battle zone to assist India direct its war effort. This was one force multiplication Pakistan had not reckoned with.
[...]
The Israeli Heron and Searcher UAVs were critically useful for target information, as most of India's aerial surveillance aircraft were either too quick, or vulnerable to enemy missile fire.

An Indian Air Force Canberra snooping over the Batalik was hit by a Pakistani stinger on May 21, exposing the limitations of India's photo reconnaissance platforms.


Does that make you an Islamophobe? You only don't use those terms but are all about them.

Only in your mind.
According to you, anyone who talks about Muslim issues is an Islamist obsessed with the ummah.
Anyone who talks about Arabs is being more Arab than the Arabs.

Funny coming from you. You label people as Indian, Indian troll, Islamiphobe and so on.

If some one has an Indian flag, I assume they are an Indian.
If they constantly derail the topic, I figure they are a troll.
And if they are still obsessed with the Muslim invasion of India centuries ago and use words like ummah, infidel and kaffir, I reckon they are an Islamophobe.

Hallucination. I just questioned your pretensions to omniscience.

OK, you can call it a hallucination if you want to.
I doubt you will understand the issues even if I explained them.

For all you know, I may know more than you about those issues, without the benefit of that Islamist lens to look at it though.

I sincerely doubt it, considering how you keep jumping from one off-topic issue to the next every time you lack a rebuttal.
 
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