Strength of alliance between India-Isreal

[Secret Service]

I have Three Points to Make :

#1. US is Kiilling More Muslims than Any on the Planet.

Why Buy F16s ?? Why Pay Them ?? ...

Conclusion : Pakistan Too is Busy Helping the Murderers of Muslims !!!

#2. Russia Invaded Afghanistan .. Killed Muslims .. and followers of Islam !

Why Get RD-93 Engines ???

Conclusion : National Interest and Security is Top Priority. Not Islam !!

#3. US is Most Hated Nation in Pakistan, People are against US ( Very different as almost NO one Hates Israel in India upto the same level.. not even close !! )

Why Give Blind Support to US ...and have ur Own Civilian's Killed .. Does Public Opinion get Immaterial Here ?

Conclusion : Public Opinion is secondary to national and Political Interests.

Before saying a word against Indo-israeli Alliance do have an introspection if similar views could be suggested for Us-Pakistan Alliance.

Its Enough Guys.. Return to India and Israel.

^^^ i cant imgine that this is coming from someone with indian and israeli flags...well you are 70% right...i agreed

 

[Chanakyaa]

I guess Truth is often Respected.. EVERYWHERE!

 

[Developereo]

Good. So you are now going to teach us democracy as well, the great strength of the Islamic world and Pakistan.

Somebody has to, when faced with hypocrisy.

And that justifies it in your opinion?

No, it explains it. There is a difference between explaining something and justifying it.

Our relationship is not complex for some reason?

India's relationship is very transparent: sacrifice humanitarian principles in exchange for Israeli military help against Pakistan.

I think you do. It stands for the justification of the partition of India. Clear now?

TNT is not a well known acronym for anything other than dynamite. And what exactly is the relevance of that here? The debate is about respect for diversity in Indian national discourse.

It is nothing but hallucination. You presume something and convince yourself, nothing more than that.

It is amply documented by the Indian posts on every Israel-related thread. The militant jingoists like yourself drown out any dissent by shouting down anyone else in the name of 'national interests'. Implication being that anyone who dares to disagree with you is harming national interests and is not a true patriot.

The governments consist of Muslims as well. So at least one Muslim is supporting Israel, why not an Indian Muslim?

The Presidency is a ceremonial post and, in any case, one person does not make foregn policy.

And you said earlier that your opposition had nothing to do with being a Muslim! So are you not tying yourself all over in knots?

My stance on Israel is separate from religion. But it is a fact that Israel has turned it into a religious conflict and many Muslims respond as such.

India didn't have ethnic cleansing. We had a large number of Muslims and they have been increasing in population share.

Unlike Pakistan! Don't even bother comparing.

Spare me the revisionist history. Millions of Muslims were displaced from India in 1947, and their land confiscated.

It was simply about the plight of Palestinians that you brought up. It seems you care nothing for Palestinians, just using them to target Israel. It comes through.

Once again, the subject is India-Israel, not India-Lebanon.

That is history of the 1947 war.

No, it is the leadup to 1947 that matters; the slow encroachment of Zionists over Palestinian land. The Zionists had been planning this thing for over a century.

Not happening in a hurry. It only shows that you are an enemy of the only practical way to achieve peace. A two state solution with guaranteed security for Israel and a viable Palestine.

Pratical by whose definition? That the Israelis get to keep what they stole by force?
Once again, you are showing your true colors by subjugating human rights to material gains.

I know, Islamophobia was waiting to be brought in. The last weapon of the Islamist.

No, the appropriate label for one such as yourself who characterizes a principled position as 'hateful' simply because it advocates the rights of Muslims.

I know may be more than you. Don't assume what I know or don't know. But this is off topic, isn't it?

It is appropriate to point out the eradication of Buddhism from India by Hindu extremists, to highlight your hypocrisy and selective historical view.

I was talking about Arabs having the numbers on their side! What did you think?

No, you were talking about the Samson doctrine and how Israel would wipe out the entire Middle East. Don't even try to weasel out of it.
You were reveling in your Islamophobia vicariously through Israel -- like a lot of Israeli supporters.

 

[GUNS-N- ROSES]

some pakistani members have understandably objected to indian relationship with israel as an unholy alliance given israel's tough policies on palistinians.

i have only one thing to say, IF IT WAS SO BAD THAT WHY DID MUSH SEND HIS KEY PERSON TO ISRAEL TO ASSESS THE FEASIBILITY OF STRATEGIC ALLIANCE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND PAKISTAN. It only stopped due to fear of public backlash as mush was on sticky wicket then.

i know many generals in pakistani armed forces would love to be on right side of israel but they cant due to public opinion.

 

[Solomon2]

Peaceful settlement ? how it can be when your ally is crushing civilian Palestinians in state terrorism. you also saw the live killings of innocent children by Zionist terrorists.

Israel guilty of "state terrorism"? There are plenty of pictures at PDF showing Arabs at the gunpoint of Israeli soldiers. And all the ones I remember have one element in common: the Arabs don't look terrified, they look bored. "Live killings of innocent children" by the IDF? I don't know what you mean, though in the past couple of years Arab terrorists have degraded civilians by employing them as human shields - living armor for weapons systems. The crime of employing civilians that way is the terrorists, not Israel's.

Peaceful settlement ? how it can be when your ally is crushing civilian Palestinians in state terrorism.

There is one basic fact that we cannot overlook:

The basic effect Israeli Jews have on Arabs is to civilize them!

That may be a shocking statement, but it is a totally supportable one. For does anyone doubt that if Israel was not defended by its armed might its Arab neighbors would massacre the entire Jewish population? In that case the Arabs would be collectively responsible for the barbaric crime of genocide. Israel prevents that, hence Israel is a civilizing influence.

The hate-driven life of the Gazans and (to a lesser extent) the Arabs under P.A. rule you know of. Here is a report about the Arabs under Israeli rule, noting the contrast between reportage and reality:

“Discrimination is built into Israel.” Zionism “has at its core the replacement of one people with another.”

These were two claims I heard at a law school panel discussion on “boycotting the Israeli occupation” which was coincidentally held on a Friday evening, when many Jews would be observing the Sabbath through prayer and a family-style meal. As the speakers attempted to ascertain the best practices for attacking and dismantling the State of Israel, I thought back to the four years I spent there before starting law school last fall.

The Israel I experienced differed starkly from the fascist dystopia of which the panelists spoke. That Israel, my Israel, hopes for peace with its neighbors and respects the rights of minority groups, sometimes to a greater extent than the U.S. does.

My military service as a dual citizen gives me great respect for Israel’s deep yearning to co-exist with its Arab neighbors. I served in the Coordinator for Government Activity in the Territories, the Ministry of Defense agency responsible for liaising with the Palestinian Authority, a quasi-sovereign and internationally recognized government entity through which the Palestinian people exercise a great deal of authority over their communities in the West Bank en route to full realization of their national hopes (for which even the conservative Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has announced his support).

As part of my service, I visited hospitals in Jerusalem where Palestinian children, with Israeli military coordination, receive critical dialysis treatments several times a week (such treatment is unavailable in the West Bank). I saw a Jewish Israeli surgeon, an Apache pilot in the Israel Defense Forces reserves, treat Palestinian, Iraqi, and African children in an intensive care unit. At the crack of dawn I welcomed Palestinian workers to the Israeli community of Qedar outside Jerusalem, where they worked with their Israeli neighbors for much higher wages than they would earn in a Palestinian city.

The upshot here is that Israel doesn’t have to let thousands of Palestinians, many of whom still deny Israel’s basic right to exist, into its communities for medical care or work (as happens every day). But Israel does. These actions, along with Israel’s full, painful withdrawals from the Gaza Strip in 2005 and the Sinai Peninsula in 1982, speak louder than words to Israel’s deep desire to get along with—not replace—its neighbors.

Living in Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv exposed me to a cosmopolitan diversity that would give many world cities a run for their money. Both cities, one renowned for piety and the other for partying, host gay pride parades that run the gamut from uniformed (and sometimes armed) soldiers fresh from an on-base stint to gay and lesbian Arab-Israelis who enjoy a level of freedom unparalleled in the Middle East (homosexuality is a capital crime in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and several other Muslim countries). I saw same-sex couples walking the streets hand in hand, something I rarely see here in liberal Cambridge. Gay Israelis may sponsor their same-sex partners (including Palestinians) for immigration rights, something currently impossible in the U.S.

Arab-Israelis make up about 20 percent of Israel’s population and participate in Israeli democracy at all levels. Justice Salim Joubran, an Arab Christian, sits on the country’s Supreme Court, which has not shied away from confronting other branches of government to advance human rights. Arab men and women continue to vote in elections for and serve in the Knesset, Israel’s parliament. Out of respect for the complexity of Arab-Israeli identity, Arab citizens are exempt from the compulsory military service that has secured the accomplishments of Israeli democracy.

I know personally that Jews and Arabs in Israel, rather than locking themselves in a self-defeating downward spiral of discrimination and resentment, often come together under the aegis of scholarship. I studied at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem with numerous Arab students who seemed quite content to learn with their Jewish compatriots at the highest-ranked Middle Eastern institution according to international rankings. After a year of study, I went to work for the non-profit Hand in Hand, which runs four bilingual, multicultural schools throughout Israel where Jewish and Arab youth study together in both Hebrew and Arabic (both of which are official languages). Where else in the Middle East would I have heard an Arab adolescent talking about attending his best-friend’s bar-mitzvah—and understanding the Hebrew far better than most American Jews?

As a young democracy that recently celebrated its 60th birthday, Israel is not perfect. Many agree that Israel should play a greater role in helping Palestinian national aspirations find their proper realization. But obfuscating basic truths about Israel’s diverse society and longstanding desire for peace is counterproductive and will only serve to inflame an already polarized discourse.

Lee M. Hiromoto, HLS ’13, served in the Israel Defense Forces from 2008-2010.

 

[Developereo]

Because apartheid era South Africa isn't same as Israel. Unlike SA, non-Jewish subjects in Israel enjoy religious freedom.

Israel is worse than apartheid-era South Africa in that discrimination is built into its very Constitution. And Arabs citizens of Israel are less equal than their Jewish counterparts. Google will give you lots of links, including Israeli sources.

Yeah yeah we get this often ; It can be better phrased as 'Neighbour's envy, owner's pride'. Now don't tell me tomorrow if Israel were to offer Pakistan their Phalcon AWACS, PAF will turn the offer down.

No, it is precisely phrased as 'blood money'. And, no, PAF will not accept Israeli technology.

So ?? India has been and is their friend. We do better than empty sloganeering on our streets. We actually contribute aid to them.

Yeah, you give them blood money to soothe your conscience.

Not addressed ; When did China acknowledge that its sorry for the repressive tactics on the Uighurs and the cultural invasion of Uighurs. Leave the Chinese government, try saying that Chinese are wrong in repressing the Uighurs to any Chinese even in this forum, they will chew you live.

And yes India too 'believes' that Israel needs too needs to work closely with the Palestinians. Happy ?? You believe that Chinese needs to work with Uighurs, we believe Israel needs to work with Israelis.

Once again, the Uighur situation is not analogous, as much as you guys want to drag it into this discussion. Uighurs were not forcefully evicted en masse from their homes like Palestinians. They are not denied citizenship of China because of their religion.

And you still did not prove me the alleged discrimination Muslims/Christians undergo in Israel that you were bandying about in your earlier posts.

The very refusal of Israel to let the refugees return is based purely on religion -- because they are not Jewish. It doesn't get clearer than this.

 

[Tin Man]

Israel is worse than apartheid-era South Africa in that discrimination is built into its very Constitution. And Arabs citizens of Israel are less equal than their Jewish counterparts. Google will give you lots of links, including Israeli sources.



No, it is precisely phrased as 'blood money'. And, no, PAF will not accept Israeli technology.



Yeah, you give them blood money to soothe your conscience.



Once again, the Uighur situation is not analogous, as much as you guys want to drag it into this discussion. Uighurs were not forcefully evicted en masse from their homes like Palestinians. They are not denied citizenship of China because of their religion.



The very refusal of Israel to let the refugees return is based purely on religion -- because they are not Jewish. It doesn't get clearer than this.

For someone who has never set foot in israel, this is a pretty strong statement. Arabs and jews live side by side there. There is no discrimination nor prejudice. My advice is, educate yourself first before making careless rants

 

[Developereo]

You mean the Hamas?

No, like unarmed Palestinian women.

Who brought the Indian Muslims? Short term memory loss?

It was an Indian who broached the subject by claiming he supports Israel despite being a Muslim.

That is an excellent suggestion.

Would you suggest the same for the massive atrocities (much bigger than in Palestine) by the Islamic invaders in the Indian subcontinent? That would be the true test of your sincerity.

And also for the victims of ethnic cleansing in 1947. Almost all of Lahore was owned by non-Muslims, much of the agricultural land in Punjab as well that was claimed from the marshes by the hard working Sikhs. Would you return it to them as well?

Let's see you set an example and I would wholeheartedly support you in this.

Ah, your Islamophobia rears its ugly head once again. You seem to be consumed by your hatred of all things Islamic -- no wonder you like Israel so much.

As to your diversionary suggestion, since we are returning lands to 'rightful' owners, will you also return all the land that was confiscated predominantly from Muslims during Nehru's land reforms? And all the lands that were grabbed while Muslims fled India in 1947?

Pot, kettle!

I am not the one bringing in unrelated crap just because it has some distant connection to Islam. You obsession with Islam is telling...

How can it be the same tactics? Does it need India's help for this?

Whether it needs India's help or not, the fact is that IDF trains with India. And IDF then goes on to kill unarmed Palestinian civilians.

Do the Uighurs think they are Chinese or you are presuming to decide for them as well.

We are presuming to urge them to decide the matter peacefully.

Your opinion ! Not fact. And yeah it was the poor unarmed Palestinian who fired tens of long range Grad rockets into civilian areas last week.It seems your hypocrisy knows no limits.

Nothing hypocritical about it. And it is a fact that IDF uses the same strong arm tactics against unarmed civilians that they are trained to use againt militants. Any number of IDF personnel have quit in protest. Feel free to google.

First develop some gall to condemn your Government deaf-and-dumb posture on the plight of the Uighurs at the hands of the Chinese.. heck first try doing that to some online Chinese and see the reaction.




We both know better. Now dont try to insult my intelligence

The issue of Uighurs is no way in the same league as the Palestinians. Despite your guys' attempt to drag it in and derail this discussio.

 

[Wonderer]

If Israel Money is "Blood Money" then by that logic why american money is not?

 

[Developereo]

If Israel Money is "Blood Money" then by that logic why american money is not?

No, the money paid by India to Palestinians is blood money. To buy conscience.

For someone who has never set foot in israel, this is a pretty strong statement. Arabs and jews live side by side there. There is no discrimination nor prejudice. My advice is, educate yourself first before making careless rants

First fix your flags before trolling.

Secondly, I know better than you what happens within Israel because I have both Jewish and Arab friends who live in Israel.

The Israeli society is extremely fragmented and is held together only by constant reinforcement of a external existential threat. Not just between Jews and Arabs, but within the Jewish community itself. There are strong ethnic tensions between the Sephardic, Ashkenaze and Ethiopean Jews. Not to mention between the ultra-Orthodox and Reform Jews.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/it-smells-like-discrimination-1.220285

Public opinion polls show that more than half of the Jewish respondents support government encouragement of Arab emigration, and a high percentage of those surveyed think Arab citizens do not deserve full equality. To put it simply, a significant segment of the Jews does not believe in real partnership with the country's Arab citizens.

 

[justanobserver]

First fix your flags before trolling.

He's a Pakistani

 

[Yeti]

@Developereo what does Indo-Israel ties have to do with yourself or Pakistan

 

[Developereo]

The basic effect Israeli Jews have on Arabs is to civilize them!

Spoken like a member of a true Master Race.

He's a Pakistani

Uh huh. I can tell by his consistently anti-Islam, anti-Pakistan pro-India posts...

@Developereo what does Indo-Israel ties have to do with yourself or Pakistan

The India-Israel partnership is mostly military and blossomed during Kargil. Both countries share enmity of Paksitan and concern for Pakistan's nuclear capability. The relationship is very much focussed on countering Pakistan.

 

[baker]

I have Three Points to Make :

#1. US is Kiilling More Muslims than Any on the Planet.

Why Buy F16s ?? Why Pay Them ?? ...

Conclusion : Pakistan Too is Busy Helping the Murderers of Muslims !!!

#2. Russia Invaded Afghanistan .. Killed Muslims .. and followers of Islam !

Why Get RD-93 Engines ???

Conclusion : National Interest and Security is Top Priority. Not Islam !!

#3. US is Most Hated Nation in Pakistan, People are against US ( Very different as almost NO one Hates Israel in India upto the same level.. not even close !! )

Why Give Blind Support to US ...and have ur Own Civilian's Killed .. Does Public Opinion get Immaterial Here ?

Conclusion : Public Opinion is secondary to national and Political Interests.

Before saying a word against Indo-israeli Alliance do have an introspection if similar views could be suggested for Us-Pakistan Alliance.

Its Enough Guys.. Return to India and Israel.

nice post bro..
all my pakistani friends read this XINIX post once.... then start jumping on india-israel relation.....

 

[Solomon2]

Spoken like a member of a true Master Race.

In other words, you have no criticism to offer other than the reflexive charge of racism.