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Stop Muslim polygamy, its 'heinously patriarchal' says Gujarat HC, pitching for a common civil code

marriage in modern times or even by islami law is really...

1. safety net for ladies.
2. safety net for males ( against claim of parenthood, right to inheritance etc ).
3. continuation of the traditional family for children.

you know, "the communist manifesto" of 1848 propagated the communist view that family is a obsolete structure, and indeed in south asia, we see the family being another source of oppression.
you dont have to sell either islami law or communist manifesto to me bro... :)
why do ladies need safety net. why do men need safety from claim of parenthood, just get it tested. why do you need to continue traditional family.
none of these are important in civilized modern world. Like I said, govt should get out of it all together.
Marriage is a religious institution, let religions decide what they want, what they limit. Muslims want to stop at 4. Well let them. Hindus want 1. ok, no problem.
from govt point of view, none of these matter. Only tricky bit is inheritance but its not that difficult.

And dont bring argument about childhood and how child needs both parents. Its ideal to have both parents with you when you grow, but cant be forced even now as per law.
Realistically, people wont marry everybody willy nilly just because you allow marriage with multiple people. Most of the world will probably remain monogamous(at least openly) because of pressure from their partner. However it will decriminalize the act, which I would welcome.
 
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The Muslims in India must stand as their civil rights are being attacked and Pakistan will support fully in their struggle for peaceful Muslimistan
 
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@The_Showstopper , before you begin to answer to those who have tagged you in this thread, do you have anything to add to my post ( Stop Muslim polygamy, its 'heinously patriarchal' says Gujarat HC, pitching for a common civil code | Page 2 )??



i agree, the "uniform civil code" is a immediate need but only until socialism is applied to the whole system.

well bro its required but its easier said then done because of extreme religious ideological politics our parties play, if honestly implemented with taking concerns of all in mind its going to be fair for all
 
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you have a problem with families too ?

as i said, families can be a great source of oppression... my post from a few days ago...

dev_moh said:
In my Grand parents time, intercaste love marriage would have lead to honour killing.


whether within-caste, inter-caste or inter-religion, it happens even now... india is probably the "honor killing capital of the world".

from ( Parents held for 'honour’ killing of 21-year-old Delhi University girl - The Times of India )...
NEW DELHI: In a horrific case of " honour killing" in the capital, a 21-year-old final year student of Sri Venkateswara, a leading college in Delhi University's south campus, was allegedly murdered by her family because she had married a boy from another caste and region.
However, Bhavna's parents began to torture her after taking her home. It became so unbearable that she ran away on November 14 and told Abhishek about her ordeal. However, her parents yet again landed up at his house, apologized profusely and took her back.

This was when, Abhishek believes, the family decided to kill their daughter. On November 15, Bhavna's maternal uncle, Laakhan, called up Abhishek and threatened to kill both of them. "He was yelling and asking me to stay away from her. He said our marriage meant nothing and if I don't mend my ways, he would shoot us both," Abhishek added.

the case is from november last year and this is how the bhawna's parents killed her...
Sources revealed it was Bhawna’s mother who took the lead in beating up her daughter, insisting they should “end the matter”. She then strangulated her daughter to death, while the father held her by the feet.

if i am allowed two murders ( "do khoon maaf" ), i would like to pump 10 bullets into bhawna's father and 20 into the evil mother.
 
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Instead of 4 marriage and headaches better is a open marriage system.. Man and Woman both can have fun and do what they want and the liability of multiple partner is not financial or judicial.

As per religion based such discrepancies, the marriage law for a individual country should be uniform for all its citizens irrespective of their religious lineage. Law cannot allow religion X to have 4 wives and religion Y to have 2 wives and religion Z to have just 1 wife.

Moreover i do believe the triple talaq system in front of a religious leader/approving authority giving the divorce format also needs a complete overhaul. I have seen my own friends getting talaq over phone too with the religious ppl as witness etc. Its not correct at all. The rights of the woman should not be trampled like this.............

A uniform marriage act and a divorce act should be in place for all citizens irrespective of the religion.
 
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as i said, families can be a great source of oppression... my post from a few days ago...

dev_moh said:
In my Grand parents time, intercaste love marriage would have lead to honour killing.


whether within-caste, inter-caste or inter-religion, it happens even now... india is probably the "honor killing capital of the world".
well that's true, too many societal problems here but a family unit is a good thing, they generally look out for each other, overall more good than bad.

"honour killing" is very rare
 
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Now hindus will tell us how many wives we would have Hahahahahaha . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 
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A muslim simply can not abide by civil code. Marriage, inheritance, divorce etc have to comply with islamic sharia otherwise they remian invalid. The muslim community won't recognize a civil code marriage and a divorce. There is not a single country in the world (secular or not) that muslims abide by civil code norms and u can't control such personal family issues by law, even in the west. There r sharia councils in the west acting as voluntary arbitrators for issues such as divorce and marriage. Even orthodox jews have similar bodies in the west which are legally acceptable is many western countries. Even polygamous relation is now being unofficially allowed in the west since as a secular liberal state u can't dictate how people arrange their family. India is also a secular state. When liberal seculars have no problem with homosexuals, mistresses and prostitutes, they can't possibly argue against polygamy unless they r shameless anti-muslim bigots .

Even in the US, polygamy is going on. In turkey its there even though a scum like ataturk banned it. U have to understand that there is a permissibility of polygamy in Islam. Marrying multiple wives comes with huge financial and emotional responsibilities that only a few can afford. Allah (swt) permitted polygamy and that's all a muslim needs to know. Definitely its a blessing for mankind and can solve a lot of problems created by liberal morally degraded societies.

Btw values of muslims don't change with time and on the whims of the society. Definitions like "patriarchal" r based on western feminist and liberal philosophy , whose definitions of right and wrong takes a U-turn every other day. Hindutvadis may have been intellectually colonized by headless western chickens, but expecting the same from muslims is ludicrous.
 
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you dont have to sell either islami law or communist manifesto to me bro... :)

why do ladies need safety net. why do men need safety from claim of parenthood, just get it tested. why do you need to continue traditional family.

i was giving the historical context.

Marriage is a religious institution, let religions decide what they want, what they limit.

what about in ussr or dprk or even china??

[1]Muslims want to stop at 4. Well let them. [2]Hindus want 1. ok, no problem.

to #1, most don't want that so, for reasons i explained in the long post on page 2.

to #2, i will give example of the old hindu grave digger for the sea-side grave of a.p.j abdul kalam... he has two wives, one he married when he was 16 and she was 13, and the second came later and was the wife's friend.

from govt point of view, none of these matter. Only tricky bit is inheritance but its not that difficult.

true, inheritance is difficult, but like you said on page# 1 i think, that christian/islami law can contribute to a "uniform civil code"... for reference, again my long post on page# 2.

but ucc itself will be replaced when the political/economic/social system becomes socialist at neighborhood and country level, because ucc is only a temporary relief measure within a capitalist and largely reactionary environment.

And dont bring argument about childhood and how child needs both parents. Its ideal to have both parents with you when you grow, but cant be forced even now as per law.

i didn't say a child requires both parents... in fact, i was talking about the obsolescence of family system.

Realistically, people wont marry everybody willy nilly just because you allow marriage with multiple people. Most of the world will probably remain monogamous(at least openly) because of pressure from their partner.

true, but the wife should be aware of facility of divorce to use as means of pressure.

However it will decriminalize the act, which I would welcome.

how do you see the mormon community in usa in its use of polygamy??
 
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by common do you mean hindu laws imposed on others because they are majority ? will there be elements of islamic /christian law be adopted coz they might be better?
None but he laws which make human life better in a civilized society and should be accepted by everyone who lives in India
 
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Ruling on civil marriage - islamqa.info

Praise be to Allaah.


Marriage in Islam has essential “pillars” and conditions; if they are fulfilled then it is a valid marriage. The “pillars” are the proposal and acceptance. The proposal is where the woman’s wali (guardian) says: I give So and so (or my daughter or my sister) to you in marriage. Acceptance is when the man says: I accept marriage to So and so.

The conditions of marriage include: Naming the bride and groom, their consent, the contract being done by the wali or his deputy, and the presence of two Muslim witnesses of good character, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is no marriage except with a wali (guardian).” Narrated by Abu Dawood (2085), al-Tirmidhi (1101), Ibn Majaah (1881), from the hadeeth of Abu Moosa al-Ash’ari; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

It was also narrated by al-Bayhaqi from the hadeeth of ‘Imraan and ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with them) with the wording: “There is no marriage except with a wali and two witnesses of good character.” Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’ no. 7557.

Some scholars are of the view that if the marriage is announced, then there is no need for two witnesses to the marriage contract.

With regard to civil marriage that is done in a court that implements man-made laws, if what is meant is documenting the marriage and recording it, then this is something that is required, so as to protect people’s rights and prevent tampering with marriage. But if the conditions of marriage are not met or it involves anything that is contrary to sharee’ah with regard to divorce and so on, then it is not permissible to do it, unless documentation of the marriage cannot be done otherwise, or if the person has no choice but to do it. In that case he can do the correct marriage contract according to sharee’ah in an Islamic centre, then do the civil marriage in the court, but he should resolve to refer to sharee’ah law in the event of any dispute, and to disavow himself of the false rituals that accompany the marriage contract in some countries. The Muslims who live in western countries should strive to have their marriages recorded officially in Islamic centres, with no need to go to the civil marriage office.

And Allaah knows best.

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Does the divorce issued by a kaafir judge or the court in a Western country count as talaaq? - islamqa.info

Praise be to Allaah.


Firstly:

It is permissible for a woman to ask for divorce (talaaq) if the husband persists in committing immoral actions, such as drinking alcohol or taking drugs. If the husband refuses to give her a divorce, she may refer the matter to the Islamic judge (qaadi) so that he can force the husband to divorce her or he himself can issue a divorce, if the husband refuses to give a divorce. If there is no Islamic judge, she may refer the case to the Islamic authorities in her country, such as the Islamic Centre, so that they can convince the husband to issue a divorce (talaaq) or ask him to let her go by means of khula‘. And it is permissible to have that shar‘i divorce (talaaq) documented after that in the court that is based on the man-made law of the land, because there is a need for that documentation.

Secondly:

If you went to the court that is based on the man-made law of the land and the court obliged your husband to issue a divorce, and he spoke the word of divorce (talaaq) or he wrote it down with the intention of divorce, then it counts as such.

If he did not utter or write the word of divorce (talaaq) with the intention of divorce, and it was the court that issued a ruling of divorce, then a divorce ordered by a kaafir judge does not count as such.

The fuqaha’ are unanimously agreed that being Muslim is an essential condition of the judge who judges cases among the Muslims, because serving as a judge is a kind of wilaayah (authority), and there is no wilaayah for a kaafir over a Muslim.

Ibn Farhoon (may Allah have mercy on him) said: al-Qaadi ‘Ayyaad (may Allah have mercy on him) said: The conditions of serving as a judge, without which the judgement cannot be valid and without which the appointment of the judge cannot be valid, are ten: being a Muslim; being of sound mind; being male; being free (not a slave); being an adult; being of good character; having knowledge; being one person (i.e., you cannot have two judges at the same time); not being blind or deaf; and not being mute or nonverbal. The first seven are essential for the appointment of the judge to be valid, and the last three are not essential to it being valid, but if they are not met it means that the judge should be dismissed. And judgeship of a kaafir is not valid, according to consensus, and neither is that of one who is insane.

End quote from Tabsirat al-Hukkaam, 1/26. See also al-Mawsoo‘ah al-Fiqhiyyah, 33/295

The final statement of the second conference of the Fiqh Council of North America, which was held in Copenhagen, Denmark, with the Muslim World League, 4-7 Jumaada al-Oola 1425 AH/22-25 June 2004 CE, stated that: a concession is granted allowing one to refer to the court that is based on the man-made law of the land, when doing so becomes a means of getting one’s rights or warding off wrongdoing in a land that is not ruled by sharee‘ah, on condition that those who have knowledge of sharee‘ah be consulted to determine the shar‘i ruling that is applicable to a given case, and that the demand be limited only to seeking what sharee‘ah allows and trying to implement it.

It also says:

Seventh clause: the extent to which civil divorce done in lands outside the Muslim world is valid:

The statement explains that if a man divorces his wife in a shar‘i manner (talaaq), there is nothing wrong with documenting it in the court that is based on the man-made law of the land. But if there is a dispute between the spouses about the divorce and connected issues, the Islamic centres may play the role of the Muslim judge (qaadi) where there is none, after doing all legally required procedures. Referring to the man-made judicial system to end the marriage does not on its own dictate the end of the marriage from the shar‘i point of view. If the woman gets a civil divorce, then she may go to the Islamic centre and refer the matter to people who are qualified to deal with these matters and have sufficient knowledge, to complete the matter from the shar‘i point of view. One cannot make the excuse that this is a matter of necessity because Islamic centres are available and easy to refer to in various regions. End quote.

Based on that, you have to refer to the Islamic centre in your city, and they can take care of the matter.

Thirdly:

If a woman has been divorced by her husband with a first or second talaaq, and the ‘iddah has ended, it is permissible for him to marry her again with a new marriage contract and a new mahr, in the presence of her wali and witnesses.

But if it was the third talaaq, she is not permissible for her first husband until she has been married to someone else, in a genuine marriage, not a tahleel marriage (one which is aimed at making it permissible for her to go back to her first husband), then the second husband dies or divorces her.

And Allah knows best.
 
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@Luffy 500

please don't confuse people... i have already explained most things about islami wedding and married life in a simple manner on page# 2 ( Stop Muslim polygamy, its 'heinously patriarchal' says Gujarat HC, pitching for a common civil code | Page 2 )... you have never thanked me or added anything to my post directly.

based on your history on pdf, people will just skip over your post or make wrong interpretation.

and please do not make a habit of quoting hadees works.

The conditions of marriage include: Naming the bride and groom, their consen

and what if the bride doesn't consent to the wedding?? what if she is being forced by her brother or mother like happens in south asia?? what if she likes someone else?? what if the bride and groom are marrying without the consent of cruel parents??
 
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Now hindus will tell us how many wives we would have Hahahahahaha . . . . . . . . . . . . .


Somebody has to be sane to tell the misguided one and it is much better then your wives making your realize whether you should any wives at all.:cheesy:
 
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