Stop maligning the military

[muse]

Also see "what is Pakistan" thread in the culture and current events - or something like that --on this forum

 

[53fd]

Shahbaz Bhatti was murdered less than three weeks ago. He was as proud and patriotic a Pakistani as there was, and his commitment to the Constitution, to the rule of law, and to the way Pakistan should be was palpable. I had several chance encounters with Bhatti, and one reasonably long sitting over dinner. He was the furthest thing possible from an irresponsible, fiery blowhard. His passion, and his religious conviction ran deep, but it was measured and packaged in the most elegant way. Bhatti may have been a vocal advocate for the Christian community, but he was much more than that. He was a good, proud and brave Pakistani. A nationalist, if there ever was one.

The new Pakistani nationalist is an ever increasingly more complex and sophisticated creature. The sacrifices of brave Pakistanis like Bhatti are helping transform what it means to be a good, proud and patriotic Pakistani. The pile of bodies that is accumulating owing to lawlessness and hatred in Pakistan is rightly a source of anger and bitterness among Pakistanis who are tired of this parade of violence. Yet, because of the pressures that greater transparency, a wider dissemination of information and a smaller, more intimate world impose, that pile of bodies is changing Pakistan. Slowly, but surely, it is shifting power away from dark and invisible sources of defining what makes a good Pakistani. Instead, the power to define things is changing, opening up, and democratising. The days of a free ride for self-appointed guardians of the national interest being the sole definers of nationalist virtue are over.

No better case can be made for this slow but unstoppable glacier of transparency and accountability than the Raymond Davis case. Davis was among hundreds of American soldiers and mercenaries deployed to Pakistan to conduct a covert war against violent extremists. These covert warriors are not in Pakistan without the consent of the highest powers in the country (primarily military, but also civilian). Not everybody in the ISI is necessarily proud of having to facilitate this covert war, but working with the US intel community is the official Pakistani policy.

Generals and politicians in Pakistan have developed the bad habit of what Altaf Hussain once referred poetically to as, “meetha-meetha hupp-hupp, karwaa-karwaa thoo-thoo.” This is the Urdu equivalent of having one’s cake and eating it too. In the age of Al-Jazeera, Geo, Twitter and multiple tracks of public diplomacy, this habit is becoming a bit like smoking – a habit that eventually catches up with you and gives you asthma, emphysema, and cancer of the mouth, throat and lungs. Simply put, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Pakistan’s military leadership wants a budget that is never touched or scrutinised. It wants infinite jobs, with extensions that choke up the entire meritocracy of the military and diminish officer morale and motivation. It wants to make deals with the United States and other powers that allow cadres of officers to have the benefits of being trained at Ft. Leavenworth and Sandhurst. And to top it all off, it wants an Islamo-centric nationalist pride to be the sole domain of military-led Pakistaniat.

When Raymond Davis killed two men at Mozang Chowk in Lahore he may have exposed the fragility and moral emptiness of Obama’s war in Pakistan. When the ISI and CIA agreed on how to spring that killer from jail, however, they exposed the self-effacing calculus of the Pakistani military elite. While so much of the national conversation invests itself in issues like honour and aid, the real impact of Davis is that it exposes and loosens the military’s grip on the definition of Pakistani nationalism.

The GHQ no longer gets to define itself as an infallible institution. Not after Gen Musharraf faced zero resistance from the corps commanders as he tried to bulldoze the superior judiciary. The military no longer gets to define who loves Pakistan and who doesn’t. Not after it aches for Coalition Support Funds with the right hand and stirs up controversy over the Kerry-Lugar Bill with the left. The ISI no longer gets to choose what kind of Pakistan it wants to project. Not after it helps leak Raymond Davis data to the press one day, and help negotiate his escape from Pakistan the next.

Meanwhile, somehow this coalition government still stands, three years after taking office. Just consider what the current democratic dispensation has endured. The country’s worst ever flood, an NRO crisis, a hyperactive Supreme Court, a fake-degrees scandal, Pakistan’s biggest internal displacement crisis, the rank and utter incompetence of key cabinet members, a vocal and outsized influence-enjoying MQM, the takeover of Swat, an unpopular war-cum-alliance with America and the regular terrorist bombings of shrines and mosques. Still, democracy stands – blood, incompetent, corrupt and woozy. It is a credit to the PPP and PML-N that this edifice still stands.

What at least three generations of military planners and guardians of the national interest have never quite appreciated is that Pakistan’s enormous diversity is a great asset. Democracy helps amplify this diversity. It is cantankerous and noisy, and it will not always produce the technically correct outcomes, but the Pakistani national project-a modern and powerful South Asian Muslim majority state can only be achieved through making sense of the noise. Thanks to Raymond Davis, thanks to technology, media and globalization, thanks to the lawyers’ movement, and thanks to a set of incomprehensible service extensions for the COAS and DG ISI, the noise gets louder and louder.

From Shahbaz Bhatti, to the soldiers on the frontline in FATA, to the innocent victims of drone strikes by the US, to the martyrs at shrines and mosques that have been attacked by suicide bombers, to Pakistani victims of lynchings in Bahrain Pakistanis are witnessing an era in which nationalism is not restricted to the strict definitions of the term in Rawalpindi cantonment.

It is nationalism that fuels those that protest against the assassinations of Salmaan Taseer and Shahbaz Bhatti. It is nationalism that drives criticism of Pakistani military acquiescence in US drone attacks. It is nationalism that seeks transparency in Pakistani military operations in FATA and Swat. It is nationalism that values the white in the Pakistani flag as much as it values the green. It is nationalism that seeks justice for Dr. Afiya and nationalism that seeks justice for Aasiya Bibi. This diverse and cantankerous new Pakistani nationalism is an enduring strength for the country. It may be exploited by some, but it cannot be debased.

The zipper on the straight-jacket of nationalism defined by a khaki ascendancy in Pakistan has come undone. It cannot be zipped back. If Pakistan contradicts itself, very well then, it contradicts itself. Like Walt Whitman, Pakistan is large. It contains multitudes.

You have reached despicable levels with your hatred against the Army, quoting Taseer, Dr Afia, Raymond Davis, Bahrain, MQM, Supreme Court; nothing I see in connection with the Army. On top of that, this is not even your own opinion, you quote an article of Mosharraf Zaidi, whose works I've read in great detail. This article was nothing but conjecture. Taseer was murdered by a fanatic, Dr Afia was a mystery, Davis was caught & tried in a Pakistani court despite the overtures of the US government; & it was only after the family of the victims accepted Diyaat that he was allowed to leave Pakistan. All his nefarious activities were exposed to the intelligence agencies, & he was of no use anymore. Pakistan would have kept him if the families hadn't accepted the Diyaat. Don't blame Davis's release on the Army as well, blame the family of the victims for accepting the Diyaat. Agnostic Muslim has already exposed your myth that the Army eats up the entire budget of Pakistan, when it only uses 3.85% of it. I have also exposed the wild conspiracy theories that the Pakistani Army supports the Taliban & a covert war as a huge figment of the imagination of conspiracy theorists like Ahmed Rashid, Fareed Zakaria & countless Pakistani journalists. If you want to read about it, & try to refute it, read Post # 332 and 334. By the same token, we can clearly say that the US supports the TTP, Jundullah; India supports BLA, BLF inside Pakistan through Afghanistan. But these are nothing but conspiracy theories my friend, just like the Pakistani Army supporting the Taliban & covert war is a wild conspiracy theory.

I was pretty sure you hated the Army for no clear reason, & after your utter failure to provide any concrete proofs against the Army, you have convinced me, repeating the meaningless conjecture of people like Mosharraf Zaidi; that you know nothing about the Army, & want to heap all the problems of the world onto the Army. You do not have any right to comment on the Army because you clearly know nothing about it, & you proved it with this post of yours.

 

[53fd]

SparklingCrescent, if you really think you are justified in hating the Army; why aren't you able to respond to Post # 332 and 334?

 

[muse]

That's rather an unreasonable position to take Mr.Haider, no one has suggested hating the army - the argument is that the army needs to do a better job. The very fact that in response we have reactionary posts that challenge the notion that the army can even be held accountable makes it clear that suggestions that army does not run the show, are labored, contrived.

 

[53fd]

That's rather an unreasonable position to take Mr.Haider, no one has suggested hating the army - the argument is that the army needs to do a better job. The very fact that in response we have reactionary posts that challenge the notion that the army can even be held accountable makes it clear that suggestions that army does not run the show, are labored, contrived.

He has suggested the Army was responsible for Afia Siddiqui, Raymond Davis, killing its own citizens, supporting the Taliban inside Pakistan & Afghanistan, supporting America's covert drone war, being too strong for the civilian government & anything in Pakistan, Kayani getting an extension because of America; without any semblance of concrete proof/rationale besides the wild rheoteric of conspiracy theorists. He is making many serious allegations, & he should have concrete evidence to back up what he is saying. I understand he is a young boy, but if he makes such serious & baseless allegations in public without having any kind of evidence, he is bound to face serious consequences. This is for his own good. I am sorry if I am sounding too harsh, I really apologize for it, but this is not my intention. My intention is to explain to him the gravity of the accusations he is making.

 

[SparklingCrescent]

SparklingCrescent, if you really think you are justified in hating the Army; why aren't you able to respond to Post # 332 and 334?

Be patient. I am doing my own school work, and homework. You aren't the only person I haven't replied to either, Xeric is first in line. So be patient, I will post my reply as soon as possible.

 

[53fd]

Be patient. I am doing my own school work, and homework. You aren't the only person I haven't replied to either, Xeric is first in line. So be patient, I will post my reply as soon as possible.

If your answer is another article by Mosharraf Zaidi & others, I won't be holding my breath.

 

[muse]

without any semblance of concrete rationale besides the wild rheoteric of crazy conspiracy theorists

That's genuinely unreasonable -- All the things you mention have been done with the collusion of the Pak Fauj -- Listen, I've been on these forums for the last 13 or 15 years, and we have and continue to support the Pak Fauj, I strongly encourage you to read the "New Pakistani Nationalism" with greater care, I want to quote something for you:

The notion of a new Pakistani nationalism is not new in a chronological sense. It is as old as the country itself. Its newness is in how widely it is dispersed and how explicitly divorced it is from the state-defined and military-dominated version of Pakistan’s economy, its history and its politics. Old Pakistani nationalism is India-centric, it is scared of multiple identities, it rejects indigenous cultures. Worst of all, it is confused. It often plays jump rope between being Muslim and being Islamic, being Indian and being Arab. Its fear of the Bengali language broke up the country, but has failed to break reality to it. Luckily, the new Pakistani nationalism doesn’t need an invitation. It is a product of the very realities that the old nationalism helped produce. Old Pakistan may be incapable of learning lessons from its mistakes, but it seems very likely that the new Pakistani nationalism is a product of the lessons of history.

See, Mr. Haider, those who have pointed out that the FAUJ NEEDS to make a transition from what it was into "Pakistan's FAUJ" are the deepest friends of the FAUJ, because unless it does so, it really will ceased to exist -- at present the FAUJ has a cultural problem, it is stuck in the old nationalism - Pakistanis have sacrificed much for the FAUJ, they will be more demanding, will especially want success and a reflection of THEIR values.

There is no point in getting angry about this or reacting in a reactionary way - it's not about me being right or you being wrong or any of that, again, please read the passage I have highlighted, please read with a calm mind -- we are all in this together

 

[53fd]

That's rather an unreasonable position to take Mr.Haider, no one has suggested hating the army - the argument is that the army needs to do a better job. The very fact that in response we have reactionary posts that challenge the notion that the army can even be held accountable makes it clear that suggestions that army does not run the show, are labored, contrived.

The Army has clearly done its job, & is doing it everyday. The Western jouranlists who want to weaken the Army have already expressed their displeasure at 'apparently' how much power the Army holds in Pakistan. Like I said, you tell the Pakistani civilian government to say NO to the Americans on the drone attacks, the Americans will stop. If they don't stop, the Pakistan Army will ensure that they stop. The Pakistani Army is doing a good job respecting the democratically elected civilian government, something the past armies did not do & had been heavily criticized for. The Pakistani Army has already stopped the US supply lines, & isn't afraid of doing things at the displeasure of the US. Another example is the refusal to start the operation in North Waziristan. On the one hand, SparklingCrescent is criticizing the Pakistan Army of being overly subservient towards the Americans, of supporting drone attacks that kills terrorists; & on the other hand, he criticizes the Pakistan Army for not conducting operations in North Waziristan and refusing the wishes of America to fight the Taliban. He is quite a confused lad, & is just using anything he can get to mindlessly hate the Pakistan Army.

For you to criticize the Pakistani Army, the most (& only) consistently reliable unit in Pakistan, without providing any kind of proof against it, shows that you have failed the litmus test. If you had provided any kind of concrete proof without conjecture & wild conspiracy theories, the issue could be looked at in more depth. However, I am just disappointed in people like you that just repeat other people's rhetoric & have no individual opinions on matters.

 

[muse]

Well, I certainly regret that you feel the way you do - I think it's unfair, but your feelings are yours and I hope you will revisit the issue and compare how you felt and what you think.

 

[53fd]

The notion of a new Pakistani nationalism is not new in a chronological sense. It is as old as the country itself. Its newness is in how widely it is dispersed and how explicitly divorced it is from the state-defined and military-dominated version of Pakistan’s economy, its history and its politics. Old Pakistani nationalism is India-centric, it is scared of multiple identities, it rejects indigenous cultures. Worst of all, it is confused. It often plays jump rope between being Muslim and being Islamic, being Indian and being Arab. Its fear of the Bengali language broke up the country, but has failed to break reality to it. Luckily, the new Pakistani nationalism doesn’t need an invitation. It is a product of the very realities that the old nationalism helped produce. Old Pakistan may be incapable of learning lessons from its mistakes, but it seems very likely that the new Pakistani nationalism is a product of the lessons of history.

Let me be clear to you, Pakistan's identity is not being anti-India. If Pakistan wanted to be a secular country made up of majority Muslims, there would be no need to create Pakistan, considering the secular approach India has taken post 1947. Pakistan was created to give Muslims & every other religion an equal chance to practice their religion freely. However, Pakistan needed to take an approach to unite the different ethnicities (Sindhis, Punjabis, Pakhtuns, Balochis, Kashmiris, Bengalis) that had NOTHING in common with each other. Pakistan had to make Islam its identity, not an anti-India attitude, as its nationalistic identity. Religion was the binding force, the glue that stuck the different ethnicities in Pakistan together. Without Islam as a nationalistic identity, Pakistan would cease to exist. Not using Bengali as the national language was not the reason why East Pakistan became Bangladesh: maintaining Bangladesh as a part of Pakistan over two thousand miles (& over the territory of hostile neighbors) was not a feasible model, which resulted in uneven development between East & West Pakistan, which eventually was the main reason why Bangladesh was formed. All the other reasons, the election results were an off shoot, & served as stimulants for the uprising.

There is a difference between claiming something that is rightfully yours (Kashmir), & being India centric. Pakistan is the same amount of India-centric as India is Pakistan-centric. Pakistan's national identity is Islam, India's national identity is a secular one. These are the realities of the situation. Pakistan's national identity is not being India-centric. India does not have a connection with any ethnic group in Pakistan besides Sindhis, Punjabis & Muhajirs.

 

[53fd]

Well, I certainly regret that you feel the way you do - I think it's unfair, but your feelings are yours and I hope you will revisit the issue and compare how you felt and what you think.

I have revisited this issue for over 15 years, & I clearly know where I stand now. Personally speaking, I am a secular person. I would love Pakistan to follow a secular model. However, I know Pakistan cannot exist as a secular nation. We wouldn't have any reason to form Pakistan if we wanted to be secular, just like Israel has no reason for its existence if it wasn't representative of Jewish identity. I wish Pakistan to be a moderate Islamic state that it always has been in the past; where women, non-Muslims & other minorities can express themselves & live freely, have the Blasphemy Law scrapped off etc. I think most Pakistanis want these things, however, Pakistan is a young country & is still finding its 'balance', in terms of moderation. Pakistan has traditionally been a very moderate Islamic country, & America's war is exacerbating the situation, which is why we need to make sure it ends quickly, & we can go back to the moderate society we had, & still have in many sections.

 

[muse]

Pakistan had to make Islam its identity, not an anti-India attitude, as its nationalistic identity. Religion was the binding force, the glue that stuck the different ethnicities in Pakistan together. Without Islam as a nationalistic identity, Pakistan would cease to exist

Come on, Bial Saeeb, Islam in Pakistan represented by people to whom the Quaid e Azam is the Kafir e Azam, the same JUI who has now suffered two attempts to assassinate him in 2 days, the same Islam under which entire sects are "excommunicated", made non-Muslim by the stroke of the pen, the same islam that no one respects and everybody suspects -- Please be fair, we all know where your heart is but do make an attempt to be fair.

No one, not in Pakistan nor outside Pakistan, sees other Pakistanis on the basis of religion, because after all, Pakistan is just too big, too diverse -- anyways, I hope you will someday revisit these issues and consider them in a more calm manner

 

[53fd]

Come on, Bial Saeeb, Islam in Pakistan represented by people to whom the Quaid e Azam is the Kafir e Azam, the same JUI who has now suffered two attempts to assassinate him in 2 days, the same Islam under which entire sects are "excommunicated", made non-Muslim by the stroke of the pen, the same islam that no one respects and everybody suspects -- Please be fair, we all know where your heart is but do make an attempt to be fair.

No one, not in Pakistan nor outside Pakistan, sees other Pakistanis on the basis of religion, because after all, Pakistan is just too big, too diverse -- anyways, I hope you will someday revisit these issues and consider them in a more calm manner

I am calm. You are at least addressing these issues, unlike others. So I am talking to you calmly.

The JUI and other Islamic parties have never been brought into power in Pakistan. Despite that, we have still maintained Islam as our country's national fabric. We have to, if we want our country to live. We were constitutionally the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in 1956. It is open to interpretation as to how Islamic or un-Islamic we are, but we have constitutionally called ourselves the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. We are made up of majority Muslims, who see themselves as Muslims first and their ethnicities second (with the obvious exception of certain Pakhtuns from FATA that follow Pakhtunwali as their living code). We have traditionally been a society dominated by moderate Barelvi Muslims, who loved the Quaid-e-Azam, supported the formation of Pakistan, and someone along whom the other religious & minority groups have lived peacefully with. As a Shia speaking Muhajir from Punjab, I can clearly tell you the love & security I have received from my Barelvi brothers. This is the moderate Islamic society I am talking about, something Pakistan has always been in its history, & still continues to be in many respects.

To summarize, Pakistan's national Islamic identity comes first & their ethnicities come second. In a Gallup poll recently in Pakistan, a large number of samples taken, that too from all over Pakistan, 89% of the total Pakistanis saw themselves as Pakistanis first and their ethnic groups second. If the Gallup poll had surveyed people based on their Islamic identity vs ethnic identity, I bet 99% of the people would have said Islamic first. Rest assured, if Pakistan were a secular nation, the results would have been reversed. Which is why Pakistani society is becoming more homogenized, a lot freer from ethnic clashes & conflicts (that we saw between Bengalis & the Punjabi leaderships, which we saw/still see today between Bengalis & Biharis, between Muhajirs & the rest of the ethncities in Sindh in the 70's) which is why Karachi has 7 million Pakthuns, half of the total number of Pakhtuns found in Afghanistan; & the most Pakhtuns found in any city in the world, including Pekhawar, Kandahar, Quetta, Kabul etc. This is why Islam is our nationalistic identity, which protects us from Pakhtunistan, Sindh rejoining India, Balochistan reuniting with Sistan & Balochistan, Iran to form Azad Balochistan etc.

 

[khurasaan1]

. Personally speaking, I am a secular person. I would love Pakistan to follow a secular model. However, I know Pakistan cannot exist with a secular model. We wouldn't have any reason to form Pakistan if we wanted to be secular, just like Israel has no reason for its existence if it wasn't representative of Jewish identity. I wish Pakistan to be a moderate Islamic state that it always has been in the past; where women, non-Muslims & other minorities can express themselves & live freely, have the Blasphemy Law scrapped off etc. .

Bro ..u could be secular or whatever and live freely whereever u like....but nobody got the right to change the Islamic rules. into human made...cuz it gonna create a problem which gonna go beyond ure imaginations....