Stop maligning the military

[53fd]

Yes, Go on and deduce my mindset concerning what I have written “here” only. Rather you are surpassingly the cleverest of us all. Well done.



You really believe that every single soldier of Pak Army liked the previous war strategy? You are missing out on a lot, and I pity you a lot in return.



Apparently you practically disregarded the actual “brag” in bilalhaiders post and stormed to the conclusion that “I’m” a bragger. Pitiful.



Moreover, it was also in the same post you thanked too. Pathetic. My supposed “brag” was brought about on purpose and was dedicated to bilalhaider who bragged about his family’s HIGH stance in Pak Army. The dude needs to learn to relaxxx and become aware of the fact that not Every Patriotic Pakistani likes the Army. I’m guessing he read where I was located at and paranoia took over therefore assuming that it’s totally normal that I, for being a Pakhtun, hate the Army (Although I will prove to you I like the Army. PM me, and I will be more then glad to)



So you come to an end that my uncle wasn’t in favor of this war? Why so? Please tell me as I’m very curious.



If this war was under his command, at least he experienced the reality of Swat and the rest of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. He would’ve felt sympathy for Pakistanis living in KP and would’ve initiated the operation way ahead of time, unlike Mush who wanted negotiations with terrorist, which also took well over a year and over a thousand sacrifices of innocent people including my own. Moreover, Mush blindly sent forward some thousands of troops who didn't have permission to fire a bullet at a terrorist across from him; even worse.



.

More insults? The Army was recognized as another Taliban proxy for not taking action. They (the Army) had already created enough damage for themselves as a result of not doing anything despite the fact that people were dying right in front of them. Just recently right after Rah e Rast did the Army’s reputation get better and better; and we all hope it gets better Inshallah.



Here goes another one, you know the organization in and out, well good for you.

Later on, when the right time comes, I will share some interesting stuff with all of you guys.

Just answer this:

You ask the government of Pakistan to tell the US 'stop the drone attacks', they'll stop them, & the Army will stop accommodating the Americans. If the Americans still don't stop, the Army will make them stop. It is the government that are the sell-outs, not the Army. You're looking at the wrong side buddy. The Army has closed down supply routes for the Americans before. The Army has repeatedly said that drone attacks are a violation of the nation's sovereignty, yet it is the government that never speaks up against these things, and doesn't say no, & always heeds to the wishes of the Americans. Stop blaming the Army for the faults of the Zardari government.

 

[53fd]

More insults? The Army was recognized as another Taliban proxy for not taking action. They (the Army) had already created enough damage for themselves as a result of not doing anything despite the fact that people were dying right in front of them. Just recently right after Rah e Rast did the Army’s reputation get better and better; and we all hope it gets better Inshallah.

This is what happens when you read too much Ahmed Rashid & watch too much Fareed Zakaria (the man who predicted Pakistan would fail in Swat), without analyzing things yourself. The Army has not been able to take action in N.Waziristan because it was overstretched by operations in S.Waziristan, Orakzai, Khyber, Mohmand, Bajaur; Swat & other operations. The Pakistani Army has killed & captured more terrorists than the US & NATO forces have in Afghanistan. Just because it has not taken action against the Taliban in N.Waziristan does NOT mean it is aiding them in anyway, or using them as proxies in Afghanistan. It's like saying American uses terrorists from Afghanistan's Paktia/Khost, Kunar that infiltrate into Pakistan's S.Waziristan & Bajaur/Mohmand agencies respectively; because they do not have control over these provinces, & they are concentrating their war efforts in Kandahar & Helmand. This is prepostorous! These are wild conspiracy theories that have no 'head & feet' to them. If the Pakistani Army was accused of aiding the Taliban, & using it as a proxy in Afghanistan & Pakistan, some high ranking official in the world community would have said so. NO ONE IN THE WORLD COMMUNITY HAS SAID OR EVEN INSINUATED THAT THE PAKISTANI ARMY 'AIDS THE TALIBAN'. Find me a statement that says exactly that from a high ranking official, not a journalist or a conspiracy theorist. Everyone says 'PAKISTAN NEEDS TO DO MORE TO CURB TERROR NETWORKS INSIDE THE COUNTRY'. Big difference my friend. It means terror networks exist within Pakistan, not that the Pakistani Army aids these. The reason why the Pakistani Army hasn't started the war in N.Waziristan is because it has been overstretched, along with the rising anti-Americanism in the country. If everyone believed the Pakistani Army was aiding the Taliban, the US would be at war against Pakistan, not Afghanistan. It would stop sending aid to Pakistan. So, get off your high horse & your know-it-all-attitude, & do stop critical thinking from yourself, instead of listening to conspiracy theorists like Ahmed Rashid & Fareed Zakaria.

 

[Jamshed]

@bilal u r living in the world of fantasy .... everybody know that drone attacks have the backing of army ... drone attacks started in the era of dictated democracy of musharraf and now u r saying that if government decide about drones than army will back the government lol ... u shud get life .. army dont have balls to stop drones .. and government dont have the balls to order the army ..

 

[53fd]

@bilal u r living in the world of fantasy .... everybody know that drone attacks have the backing of army ... drone attacks started in the era of dictated democracy of musharraf and now u r saying that if government decide about drones than army will back the government lol ... u shud get life .. army dont have balls to stop drones .. and government dont have the balls to order the army ..

The drone attacks have the backing of the civilian government, which is why they have the backing of the Army. Remember, we have a civilian, democratic government, not Martial Law. The ultimate answer lies with the civilian government. This is the answer to your question:

You ask the government of Pakistan to tell the US 'stop the drone attacks', they'll stop them, & the Army will stop accommodating the Americans. If the Americans still don't stop, the Army will make them stop. It is the government that are the sell-outs, not the Army. You're looking at the wrong side buddy. The Army has closed down supply routes for the Americans before. The Army has repeatedly said that drone attacks are a violation of the nation's sovereignty, yet it is the government that never speaks up against these things, and doesn't say no, & always heeds to the wishes of the Americans. Stop blaming the Army for the faults of the Zardari government.

 

[khurasaan1]

broz ...plz no blame game ...cuz both the Army, Govt. and the public/awaam dont have ballz to stop the drone attacks . This is so simple...cuz they all fear for their lives. They all love this life too much and are sacred of their deathz no doubt about any question....
If u guyz dont believe then read surah Kahaf with its translation in Holy Quran u will understand our situation very easily...cuz why we dont have ballz.....

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

You ask the government of Pakistan to tell the US 'stop the drone attacks', they'll stop them, & the Army will stop accommodating the Americans. If the Americans still don't stop, the Army will make them stop. It is the government that are the sell-outs, not the Army. You're looking at the wrong side buddy. The Army has closed down supply routes for the Americans before. The Army has repeatedly said that drone attacks are a violation of the nation's sovereignty, yet it is the government that never speaks up against these things, and doesn't say no, & always heeds to the wishes of the Americans. Stop blaming the Army for the faults of the Zardari government.

I am fine with that... and I urge other members here to pay attention to what is being said here... It is a valid excuse... what was done in the past is in the past and we should not blame the Army for what happened during the time of Musharaf...

Perhaps the Army should be considering putting their professional weight behind those it trusts will be able to lead the nation in a better way next time... this would be a good thing to ask considering the political muscle that the Army fortunately or unfortunately has within our country...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Just answer this:

You ask the government of Pakistan to tell the US 'stop the drone attacks', they'll stop them, & the Army will stop accommodating the Americans. If the Americans still don't stop, the Army will make them stop. It is the government that are the sell-outs, not the Army. You're looking at the wrong side buddy. The Army has closed down supply routes for the Americans before. The Army has repeatedly said that drone attacks are a violation of the nation's sovereignty, yet it is the government that never speaks up against these things, and doesn't say no, & always heeds to the wishes of the Americans. Stop blaming the Army for the faults of the Zardari government.

It is my gut feeling that the Army will not stop accomodating the Americans (even if the government did... of which there is little chance) for as long as we have certain people as top brass...

I did overhear someone saying that Kayani got clearance from the US before he became the COAS... not saying its true or false... perhaps we need someone who has not studied in Kansas as our COAS next time...

 

[VCheng]

It is my gut feeling that the Army will not stop accomodating the Americans (even if the government did... of which there is little chance) for as long as we have certain people as top brass...

I did overhear someone saying that Kayani got clearance from the US before he became the COAS... not saying its true or false... perhaps we need someone who has not studied in Kansas as our COAS next time...

How do you think Kayani and Pasha got their extensions?

 

[SparklingCrescent]

Shahbaz Bhatti was murdered less than three weeks ago. He was as proud and patriotic a Pakistani as there was, and his commitment to the Constitution, to the rule of law, and to the way Pakistan should be was palpable. I had several chance encounters with Bhatti, and one reasonably long sitting over dinner. He was the furthest thing possible from an irresponsible, fiery blowhard. His passion, and his religious conviction ran deep, but it was measured and packaged in the most elegant way. Bhatti may have been a vocal advocate for the Christian community, but he was much more than that. He was a good, proud and brave Pakistani. A nationalist, if there ever was one.

The new Pakistani nationalist is an ever increasingly more complex and sophisticated creature. The sacrifices of brave Pakistanis like Bhatti are helping transform what it means to be a good, proud and patriotic Pakistani. The pile of bodies that is accumulating owing to lawlessness and hatred in Pakistan is rightly a source of anger and bitterness among Pakistanis who are tired of this parade of violence. Yet, because of the pressures that greater transparency, a wider dissemination of information and a smaller, more intimate world impose, that pile of bodies is changing Pakistan. Slowly, but surely, it is shifting power away from dark and invisible sources of defining what makes a good Pakistani. Instead, the power to define things is changing, opening up, and democratising. The days of a free ride for self-appointed guardians of the national interest being the sole definers of nationalist virtue are over.

No better case can be made for this slow but unstoppable glacier of transparency and accountability than the Raymond Davis case. Davis was among hundreds of American soldiers and mercenaries deployed to Pakistan to conduct a covert war against violent extremists. These covert warriors are not in Pakistan without the consent of the highest powers in the country (primarily military, but also civilian). Not everybody in the ISI is necessarily proud of having to facilitate this covert war, but working with the US intel community is the official Pakistani policy.

Generals and politicians in Pakistan have developed the bad habit of what Altaf Hussain once referred poetically to as, “meetha-meetha hupp-hupp, karwaa-karwaa thoo-thoo.” This is the Urdu equivalent of having one’s cake and eating it too. In the age of Al-Jazeera, Geo, Twitter and multiple tracks of public diplomacy, this habit is becoming a bit like smoking – a habit that eventually catches up with you and gives you asthma, emphysema, and cancer of the mouth, throat and lungs. Simply put, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Pakistan’s military leadership wants a budget that is never touched or scrutinised. It wants infinite jobs, with extensions that choke up the entire meritocracy of the military and diminish officer morale and motivation. It wants to make deals with the United States and other powers that allow cadres of officers to have the benefits of being trained at Ft. Leavenworth and Sandhurst. And to top it all off, it wants an Islamo-centric nationalist pride to be the sole domain of military-led Pakistaniat.

When Raymond Davis killed two men at Mozang Chowk in Lahore he may have exposed the fragility and moral emptiness of Obama’s war in Pakistan. When the ISI and CIA agreed on how to spring that killer from jail, however, they exposed the self-effacing calculus of the Pakistani military elite. While so much of the national conversation invests itself in issues like honour and aid, the real impact of Davis is that it exposes and loosens the military’s grip on the definition of Pakistani nationalism.

The GHQ no longer gets to define itself as an infallible institution. Not after Gen Musharraf faced zero resistance from the corps commanders as he tried to bulldoze the superior judiciary. The military no longer gets to define who loves Pakistan and who doesn’t. Not after it aches for Coalition Support Funds with the right hand and stirs up controversy over the Kerry-Lugar Bill with the left. The ISI no longer gets to choose what kind of Pakistan it wants to project. Not after it helps leak Raymond Davis data to the press one day, and help negotiate his escape from Pakistan the next.

Meanwhile, somehow this coalition government still stands, three years after taking office. Just consider what the current democratic dispensation has endured. The country’s worst ever flood, an NRO crisis, a hyperactive Supreme Court, a fake-degrees scandal, Pakistan’s biggest internal displacement crisis, the rank and utter incompetence of key cabinet members, a vocal and outsized influence-enjoying MQM, the takeover of Swat, an unpopular war-cum-alliance with America and the regular terrorist bombings of shrines and mosques. Still, democracy stands – blood, incompetent, corrupt and woozy. It is a credit to the PPP and PML-N that this edifice still stands.

What at least three generations of military planners and guardians of the national interest have never quite appreciated is that Pakistan’s enormous diversity is a great asset. Democracy helps amplify this diversity. It is cantankerous and noisy, and it will not always produce the technically correct outcomes, but the Pakistani national project-a modern and powerful South Asian Muslim majority state can only be achieved through making sense of the noise. Thanks to Raymond Davis, thanks to technology, media and globalization, thanks to the lawyers’ movement, and thanks to a set of incomprehensible service extensions for the COAS and DG ISI, the noise gets louder and louder.

From Shahbaz Bhatti, to the soldiers on the frontline in FATA, to the innocent victims of drone strikes by the US, to the martyrs at shrines and mosques that have been attacked by suicide bombers, to Pakistani victims of lynchings in Bahrain Pakistanis are witnessing an era in which nationalism is not restricted to the strict definitions of the term in Rawalpindi cantonment.

It is nationalism that fuels those that protest against the assassinations of Salmaan Taseer and Shahbaz Bhatti. It is nationalism that drives criticism of Pakistani military acquiescence in US drone attacks. It is nationalism that seeks transparency in Pakistani military operations in FATA and Swat. It is nationalism that values the white in the Pakistani flag as much as it values the green. It is nationalism that seeks justice for Dr. Afiya and nationalism that seeks justice for Aasiya Bibi. This diverse and cantankerous new Pakistani nationalism is an enduring strength for the country. It may be exploited by some, but it cannot be debased.

The zipper on the straight-jacket of nationalism defined by a khaki ascendancy in Pakistan has come undone. It cannot be zipped back. If Pakistan contradicts itself, very well then, it contradicts itself. Like Walt Whitman, Pakistan is large. It contains multitudes.

 

[SQ8]

where are the evaluations, the rubric?


i look forward to full analysis

Lets see..

If the military has been successful at what it does..
How come.. during conflicts that occurred under military dictators..
we have come out on the losing end?
You would expect the army to do better when the army man was in power..

On the contrary.. quite the opposite happened.
Trying to do a relative grading with the civilian leadership for the military.. is plain simple defeatist attitude.

I have a simple saying for our military.

"Lions led by lambs".

 

[VCheng]

SparklingCrescent: ^^^ Source link please?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I have a simple saying for our military.

"Lions led by lambs".

no thats our country

 

[muse]

Generals and politicians in Pakistan have developed the bad habit of what Altaf Hussain once referred poetically to as, “meetha-meetha hupp-hupp, karwaa-karwaa thoo-thoo.” This is the Urdu equivalent of having one’s cake and eating it too. In the age of Al-Jazeera, Geo, Twitter and multiple tracks of public diplomacy, this habit is becoming a bit like smoking – a habit that eventually catches up with you and gives you asthma, emphysema, and cancer of the mouth, throat and lungs. Simply put, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Pakistan’s military leadership wants a budget that is never touched or scrutinised. It wants infinite jobs, with extensions that choke up the entire meritocracy of the military and diminish officer morale and motivation. It wants to make deals with the United States and other powers that allow cadres of officers to have the benefits of being trained at Ft. Leavenworth and Sandhurst. And to top it all off, it wants an Islamo-centric nationalist pride to be the sole domain of military-led Pakistaniat.

And from "What is Pakistan" on the Culture forum:

The notion of a new Pakistani nationalism is not new in a chronological sense. It is as old as the country itself. Its newness is in how widely it is dispersed and how explicitly divorced it is from the state-defined and military-dominated version of Pakistan’s economy, its history and its politics. Old Pakistani nationalism is India-centric, it is scared of multiple identities, it rejects indigenous cultures. Worst of all, it is confused. It often plays jump rope between being Muslim and being Islamic, being Indian and being Arab. Its fear of the Bengali language broke up the country, but has failed to break reality to it. Luckily, the new Pakistani nationalism doesn’t need an invitation. It is a product of the very realities that the old nationalism helped produce. Old Pakistan may be incapable of learning lessons from its mistakes, but it seems very likely that the new Pakistani nationalism is a product of the lessons of history.

and this :

What at least three generations of military planners and guardians of the national interest have never quite appreciated is that Pakistan’s enormous diversity is a great asset.

But there is also unity of command -- however, is that the same thing as Unity of Governance?? Are command and governance the same thing?

And for those who still don't get it - it's not personal, it's not because somehow we woke up and decided the FAUJ has to go, no - It's about getting the FAUJ to do a batter job, no, it's about getting the FAUJ to do a super good job - you want the FAUJ to be above reproach, then stop doing such a crappy job, if politicians have failed, so has the FAUJ, but there is a difference, Pakistanis have a special place in their hearts for THEIR armed forces, they are heart broken by the failures of the FAUJ, with the politicians, they are just scum:

The GHQ no longer gets to define itself as an infallible institution. ..The military no longer gets to define who loves Pakistan and who doesn’t. Not after it aches for Coalition Support Funds with the right hand and stirs up controversy over the Kerry-Lugar Bill with the left. The ISI no longer gets to choose what kind of Pakistan it wants to project. Not after it helps leak Raymond Davis data to the press one day, and help negotiate his escape from Pakistan the next.

No need to argue back - just fix it. and do it right

 

[RabzonKhan]

Rabzon


Not that i want to speak for the Army blindly but then selecting guud men and women is one thing and then after selection after giving them all the perks and privileges to make them do guud or deliver is another.

We all know that the FPCS selects the best among us through CSS exams but then we all know how these bureaucrats behaves when they get fond of all the perks.

The Army doesnt do that, or dont let that happen. We make sure that, that mali whom we enroll gives a 100% and delivers to the book and at the same time we also ensure that he is respected and is paid well in time. On the other hand we know how security guards, gardeners, clerks and Officer work in the civilian enterprises or departments. No one gets to his office or work place on time, no one sits there or work there till time, no one completes his day's routine, no one meets the dead lines or else under construction roads or bridges would not have stayed there like dump of men and material for years!!!

Further, there's no check on misuse of sarkari items. No one checks even if a clerk is misusing the vehicle, stationary or the utilities. We on the other hand penalize if such things occurs. But most importantly our men have developed that sense of uprightness. We normally dont get carried away by these small petty luxuries. We dont use sarkari stationary at our homes ( or should i say we dont have much that can be spared and taken home), we dont ravel back to our homes or sarkari vehicles, we dont sit idle in offices drinking tea, if we do, we have people who ask us for delays and rather dandofy us for it. The reason, well are not independent, we have a system in place where upon people keep an eye onus, now the 'people' can be your boss, your senior or someone from the intelligence sections.

In short, we deliver, and we deliver on time. We deliver in less resources and in less time. We dont complain if we are short of something, we adjust, we modify and we put in place the jugards, and the eyes are on the output, just the output. We dont ask a junior if he has slept at night or if he was sitting in his office till 9 pm, we just ask if the work had been completed or not. Certain times, this can be inhumane, but we dont care much, why, because we aim at the output and that's how militaries work.

i remember once we were out of the cantts for a collective exercise. Away from habitat and life. A close relative of mine died. i happened to be just 30-40 kms away from my home town. i had the option to take out my sarkari vehicle and reach my place. No questions asked. The vehicles would travel hundreds of kilometers daily in order to conduct recce, plan stimulated operations, fetch water and food, dispose off troops etc. i could have combined some LEGAL and LEGITIMATE outdoor activity with my journey back home and could have traveled to my village. Or screw that, i could have gone without telling anyone as i was the senior most in that camp and had no one to ask me. But i didnt. Because, one my training didnt allow me to misuse sarkari privileged, two, i didnt want to create a bad example infront of my troops who could later say, 'daikho jee, sahib khud tu chalay gaye thay fauji gari per, hum 10 bandon nay jana hai tu aik gari nahi mil sakti bus adday tak chornay k liye.'

i took the vehicle till the bus adds (i was supposed/allowed to as we were out of the cantts and did have our private vehicles with us). My relatives didnt inform me of the death because they knew it would be difficult for me to join the funeral, why? Because i was a fauji and they knew k fauji itni asani say chotti nahi ata. But by the time they informed me i was already too late, but still i planned that i could even walk a 40 kms in 4-6hours if i had too . But still i didnt take the sarkari privilege. Guess what, i had to wait for like 2 hours at that stupid adda, a small town with no guud transpostation system. Then came the mighty Hiace (the death capsule), i again had to wait till it filled completely. i am sure you people know who these things work in Pakistan. And then on reaching my home town i had to take a rikshaw back home.

You know what, i didnt even require to mischief. i could just have informed my boss of the situation and he would gladly have allowed me to take that sarkari vehicle with me, no questions asked. Otherwise 40 kms was not a run that the Army couldnt spare for an Officer after 15 years. But then that's not what the Army has taught us. We dont embezzle and we dont cheat!

May be now we can think of re-grading the Army, right?

Xeric, you seem to be a good person, thank you for serving our country with honesty and hard work, I salute you for that! Keep up the good work.

Now on the topic at hand, I agree with you to a certain extent, but I have big problem with people (not pointing finger at you) who call civilians as C-class, jahils, gawars and whatnot, I am completely against this kind of behavior, how can we expect others to respect us if we don't respect each other.

The point I will like to make is that you’re comparing the best (Army employees) with the worse (Government employees). My friend, Pakistan has more than fifty million civilian workforce, and only a fraction of them work for the Government, most of them work in rural areas, in privately owned companies or are self employed.

Agricultural workers have to endure hard work, low pay, and no health benefits, they perform strenuous work outdoors in cold and hot weather (temperature can reach as high as 50c, 122F), and let’s not forget how important is their work for our country's food security.

I have many relatives and friends who work for privately run companies like Pearl continental , Nestle, Rafhan, UniLever, ICI, Dewan Salman, Wateen Telecom, World Call Telecom, MCB Bank, KASB Bank (there are thousands of companies like these), they can’t go late or take leave without some solid reasons, and have to complete their work efficiently, effectively and on-time, and at times have to work extra hours and not even get paid, I can go on and on, but the bottom line is, that they have to work very hard to keep their jobs, as there’s no free lunch. The same can be said for the self employed, they also have to work their bu tts off to make ends meet, and if they don’t, they can starve, because there is no welfare system for the civilians in our country.

Farther more, there are approximately five to six million hard working Pakistanis living abroad, remitting six to seven billion dollars to Pakistan annually. Trust me, in foreign countries, money doesn't grow on trees, we really have to work very hard to earn it.

The bottom line is that we civilians work as hard as our compatriots in the Army.

I have nothing further to say on this topic.

Cheers!

 

[SparklingCrescent]

SparklingCrescent: ^^^ Source link please?

Right here my friend. The new Pakistani nationalism