Start of Hybrid War against Pakistan to Industrial Scale

[SQ8]

None of these efforts would be possible without the efforts of Pakistanis themselves who for reasons both sinister and/or egoistic cannot see beyond their ethno-sectarian-pseudo religious lenses when looking at each other. Its not India will fight Pakistan to the last Afghani or otherwise.. they will fight Pakistan to the last Punjabi,pathan,sindhi,balochi,”mohajir”, hazara , shia,sunni and corrupt human.

 

[TheTallGuy]

I see the border dispute as a symptom of distrust between Hindus and Muslims in subcontinent; add the real and present competition for water resources in the area to this.

The border dispute itself is not the reason for poverty in the subcontinent. Per capita income in the region has been perennially low in these countries because people are less productive. This will not simply correct itself if the border tension. When we look at developed countries, there is an overwhelming abundance of resources that most of these countries are blessed with. The subcontinent does not have enough of it in relation to its population size. In the absence of native resources, only an outside 'pick me up' card can lead to prosperity!

PS: These are just my opinions. I do not claim them to be facts.

I understand, mine are opinions as well. lets take history when nations economies turn south and both have large population and huge armies. hunger and desperation sets in...and this leads to two eventualities

1. WAR.
2. disintegration.

Both option are staring right in face of Pakistan & India

 

[truthfollower]

None of these efforts would be possible without the efforts of Pakistanis themselves who for reasons both sinister and/or egoistic cannot see beyond their ethno-sectarian-pseudo religious lenses when looking at each other. Its not India will fight Pakistan to the last Afghani or otherwise.. they will fight Pakistan to the last Punjabi,pathan,sindhi,balochi,”mohajir”, hazara , shia,sunni and corrupt human.

In the end India will have the victory?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

In the end India will have the victory?

How do you define victory?

 

[truthfollower]

How do you define victory?

for India like the way they created Bangladesh

 

[Indus Pakistan]

for India like the way they created Bangladesh

You mean Pakistan federation dissolves into independant Punjab, K-Pk, Balochistan, Sindh? If so India will not gain anything. The Indus region will not become annexed with India. Even Bangladesh did not.

Also there as as much chance as India cracking up into dozen entities along the boundaries of the states.

 

[truthfollower]

You mean Pakistan federation dissolves into independant Punjab, K-Pk, Balochistan, Sindh? If so India will not gain anything. The Indus region will not become annexed with India. Even Bangladesh did not.

Also there as as much chance as India cracking up into dozen entities along the boundaries of the states.

for now they only want Kashmir?

 

[Norwegian]

One is a disputed territory other is not. This opens door for Pakistan to support groups in mainland India.

Disputed territory in Pakistan's view only. India doesn't see it that way especially after Simla Agreement where Pakistani PM Bhutto made Kashmir a bilateral issue.

Simla Agreement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No. Do you have blinkers on like a donkey? What about Indian intervention in Bangla 1971? We can't be blamed for the reaction.

India intervened after Pakistan army's own operation against the Bangla insurgents led to mass exodus of East Pakistanis into Indian territory.

Bangladesh Liberation War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If Kashmiris start pouring into Pakistani territory, then Pakistan can intervene in Kashmir. Not without it.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Disputed territory in Pakistan's view only. India doesn't see it that way especially after Simla Agreement where Pakistani PM Bhutto made Kashmir a bilateral issue.

Kashmir is a bilateral issue and common sense dictates ideally bilateral issue should be resolved by parties involved (bilaterally). But just like any other issue or case when bilateral negotiations are not working out than case goes to arbitration or court. There is no clause in simla agreement that’s states that case can’t be taken to international court or 3rd part arbitration.

 

[nahtanbob]

• European Union Disinformation Lab
• Funding TTP, BLA, BLM, MQM
• Airline hijack plot
• Propaganda to prevent international cricket in Pakistan

you forgot a few things ...

Support for the Taliban
Hosting Obama Bin laden in Abbotabad
political and economic bungling within Pakistan

we won't talk about occasional blasphemy case

 

[Adecypher]

Its not India will fight Pakistan to the last Afghani or otherwise.. they will fight Pakistan to the last Punjabi,pathan,sindhi,balochi,”mohajir”, hazara , shia,sunni and corrupt human.

wah zabardast post … aapke mon mein ghee shakar…

 

[arjunk]

There will most likely never be war with India again, because both sides have nukes. Simple as that.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

We do not value hawks.

"Hawks" in Pakistani perspective, majority of them have religious tendencies, and its the same across the border in India. Doval is not a liberal buffoon. India encourages its hawks, Pakistan supress them, effects are for all to see.

What happened in Pakistan, is a travesty of biblical proportion by Musharraf and his goons, who literally purged from establishment people with religious tendencies. Our "hawks", their wings were clipped long time ago and now we endup with libturd mafia everywhere. This crime against Pakistan is never talked about, mentioned, or even understood properly.

If Pakistan, as a state, do not reverse the Musharraf effects, do not expect any change. Damage is already way deep.

This is why I pray that things get better when the pacifist leaves GHQ.

Musharraf damage is generational. Not sure we will see our hawks in power anytime soon. Garbage in garbage out atm I am afraid.

 

[R Wing]

"Hawks" in Pakistani perspective, majority of them have religious tendencies, and its the same across the border in India. Doval is not a liberal buffoon. India encourages its hawks, Pakistan supress them, effects are for all to see.

What happened in Pakistan, is a travesty of biblical proportion by Musharraf and his goons, who literally purged from establishment people with religious tendencies. Our "hawks", their wings were clipped long time ago and now we endup with libturd mafia everywhere. This crime against Pakistan is never talked about, mentioned, or even understood properly.

If Pakistan, as a state, do not reverse the Musharraf effects, do not expect any change. Damage is already way deep.



Musharraf damage is generational. Not sure we will see our hawks in power anytime soon. Garbage in garbage out atm I am afraid.

I agree that Mush is to blame for this slide into a bureaucratic notion of valuing short-term stability over all else --- basically a "don't rock the boat" approach which is just sad, especially from the military!

I disagree with you that it's directly related to religious tendencies. In fact, it would be great to see secular hawks as well, as the religious ones sometimes get lost in Ghazva-e-Hindh (conquering) fantasies rather than, like Doval, being slow, methodological and patient. This is a covert war --- nobody is worried about India invading Pakistan anymore. We have to be on the offensive, but we also have to not get caught. It's a fine balance, and many of the religious types don't care about this balance. For example, many of the hawks in Israel and the US are actually very liberal overall; many aren't. But the 'hawk' or even the 'realist' exists and is valued.

On the other hand, we have a bunch of pacifist losers who think that appeasement will work. WAKE UP! The deterrence deficit is rising. People here pat themselves on the back over the most pathetic achievements --- hence we think that maintaining this terrible state of affairs is a great goal to achieve.

You're right, this can only change after many generations. In the short term, I wish we randomly get a wild card hawkish PM and, more importantly, COAS. The biggest disservice and most unfair attack that people (including some here have leveled at me) is that being hawkish means that we are supporting some kind of open, conventional war with India or the direct invasion of IOK. I am not. I am saying we need to do a lot more covertly, offensively and aggressively, to win or at least balance things in the subconventional/hybrid/gray zone area and then, when the deterrence deficit here has been minimized, it'll serve as a preparation of the battlefield exercise for a decisive push (or not --- we should regardless keep IOK boiling).

@PanzerKiel may be able to comment on the growing dove-like attitudes of 3-star officers. I have interacted with a few and they talk and behave surprisingly more like diplomats and politicians than generals. The standard response is: we game this stuff, we have simulations, there's a lot you don't know, bla bla bla --- which is wholly unconvincing. Only a few very honest offrs capable of introspection have admitted that this is a pointless, counter-productive strategy that is getting more and more Pakistani blood spilt --- and we desperately need reimagined and reinvigorated kinetic covert action and proxy warfare against India, especially in IOK. The big problem is that it is easier for top brass to maintain this new normal status quo (in which Pakistan is unfortunately at a disadvantage) than to painfully and riskily build new capacities in the requisite domains.

@SQ8 @Blacklight @Areesh

 

[Taimoor Khan]

I agree that Mush is to blame for this slide into a bureaucratic notion of valuing short-term stability over all else --- basically a "don't rock the boat" approach which is just sad, especially from the military!

I disagree with you that it's directly related to religious tendencies. In fact, it would be great to see secular hawks as well, as the religious ones sometimes get lost in Ghazva-e-Hindh (conquering) fantasies rather than, like Doval, being slow, methodological and patient. This is a covert war --- nobody is worried about India invading Pakistan anymore. We have to be on the offensive, but we also have to not get caught. It's a fine balance, and many of the religious types don't care about this balance. For example, many of the hawks in Israel and the US are actually very liberal overall; many aren't. But the 'hawk' or even the 'realist' exists and is valued.

On the other hand, we have a bunch of pacifist losers who think that appeasement will work. WAKE UP! The deterrence deficit is rising. People here pat themselves on the back over the most pathetic achievements --- hence we think that maintaining this terrible state of affairs is a great goal to achieve.

You're right, this can only change after many generations. In the short term, I wish we randomly get a wild card hawkish PM and, more importantly, COAS. The biggest disservice and most unfair attack that people (including some here have leveled at me) is that being hawkish means that we are supporting some kind of open, conventional war with India or the direct invasion of IOK. I am not. I am saying we need to do a lot more covertly, offensively and aggressively, to win or at least balance things in the subconventional/hybrid/gray zone area and then, when the deterrence deficit here has been minimized, it'll serve as a preparation of the battlefield exercise for a decisive push (or not --- we should regardless keep IOK boiling).

@PanzerKiel may be able to comment on the growing dove-like attitudes of 3-star officers. I have interacted with a few and they talk and behave surprisingly more like diplomats and politicians than generals. The standard response is: we game this stuff, we have simulations, there's a lot you don't know, bla bla bla --- which is wholly unconvincing. Only a few very honest offrs capable of introspection have admitted that this is a pointless, counter-productive strategy that is getting more and more Pakistani blood spilt --- and we desperately need reimagined and reinvigorated kinetic covert action and proxy warfare against India, especially in IOK. The big problem is that it is easier for top brass to maintain this new normal status quo (in which Pakistan is unfortunately at a disadvantage) than to painfully and riskily build new capacities in the requisite domains.

@SQ8 @Blacklight @Areesh

I know few, including in my own family, who were given choice between the beard and career, in the aftermath of 9/11 by Musharraf regime. It was sickening to see how Islamic republic of Pakistan was going to this length that it was ripping apart the vary foundations of state to appease western masters. There is no denying this sorry fact that it was ensured Pakistani state and its control remain firmly within the grasp of liberal lot, not just at the time but in future as well. What we see now, is the direct result of the diabolical non sense that happened in 9/11 aftermath.


In the region we live in, being a hawk, by enlarge mean an individual having right wing tendencies. This now is actually a global phenomena where rightwingers are firmly in control of the states, at least in Pakistan neighbour, its all right wing hold. We are still stuck in past, where we believe that having liberal/left hold of Pakistan will appease the west. What world we are living in!!

I disagree that liberals/leftist can be considered as hawks in Pakistan/regional perspective. Enslaved minds cannot comprehend and see the issues at hand, let alone devise strategies on how to tackle them.


Yes, it doesn't mean that Pakistan declare war on enemy nations but this lethargy of post 9/11 non sense must be shed asap. "Full spectrum deterrence" must be redefined which should include, rather emphasis, the sub conventional warfare/hybrid/grey zone conflict in all its facets and manifestations. Deterrence should mean deterrence, not just mere word on policy documents. ZERO tolerance of any terrorist activity by any nation within the borders of Pakistan. And if any such activity takes place, almost immediate response within the sub conventional realm. Our "red lines" have blurred, they dont even exist anymore. Name me one "nuke power" which has dealt with so much crap against its citizens, within it own jurisdiction and borders? Maybe we have forgotten on how to behave as a nuke power!?