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Stable Pakistan not in India’s interest

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So the militancy is not at all related to your home grown terrorists or TTP, or the fact that Pakistan is FINALLY trying to exert its writ in these areas.
TTP didn't even exist. Where are these people getting their weapons, food, ammunition for 8 years?

Nice work Asim! And i though Pakistani's are finally realizing the folly of breeding terrorism.
Yes, we are about 8 years too late in bombing a few consulates out of existence!
 
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Its perfectly on topic. We are discussing the stability of Pakistan...well, that's how you achieve stability.

We are discussing the Indian obsession for destabalising Pakistan presented in this write up . If you are honest enough you will come up with discussing all the factors Including India that are destabalising Pakistan along with internal ones.

Creating a national obsession/ revenge psychology is definitely not how you do it.


That is what we are saying as the view of your Indian defence analyst supports and advocate Creating a national obsession/ revenge psychology on part of India.
 
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^^^i think a stable pakistan is in the interest of all countries of south asia. the only problem lies in the fact that india wants to be the "big brother" to all these countries.

having completely marginalized nepal. bhutan. maldives, BD (to a major extent). sri lanka and pakistan are the 2 countries who are not accepting indian "dictat" and therefore the tit-for-tat intrigues will continue while the people suffer un-necessarily.

i was in india recently (mumbai) and i could not believe the attitude of the indian print & TV, intoxicated with blaming pakistan directly and indirectly for anything and everything.
the holier than thou attitude is shameful, to say the least!

Sir if you had watched carefuly the Indian media totaly skips problems of millions of Indians but the main headlines and flashing stories are either about bollywood or fals claims of shining India or Indeed about blaming Pakistan for everything.

When Jaypor witnessed blasts in May i was amazed to see that no sooner the Indian Channels start showing discussion programes wherein the Indian intellecutals were hissing with anger and forcing the Indian Governement to end ties with Pakistan and go all out for a big offensive against Pakistan to teach it a lessen :disagree:

I was so shocked to see that they were trying to force the governement to take stupid steps out of anger.
 
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having completely marginalized nepal. bhutan. maldives, BD (to a major extent). sri lanka and pakistan are the 2 countries who are not accepting indian "dictat" and therefore the tit-for-tat intrigues will continue while the people suffer un-necessarily.
Bhutan and Maldives are close friends, and Nepal though has had a regime change has started giving very friendly signals now, from Prachanda's visit.
Sri-Lanka accepts all Indian "diktats", it does nothing without Indian consent, importing some Pakistani ammunitions, etc does not make it belligerent to India-Its the Indian Navy that is practically cutting out all of LTTE's weapons, should India withdraw that, it would be carnage there.

Its only BD that does not accept Indian "diktats".


i was in india recently (mumbai) and i could not believe the attitude of the indian print & TV, intoxicated with blaming pakistan directly and indirectly for anything and everything.
Have you been there before? Admire the development if at all, thats what is the keyword here.
 
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TTP didn't even exist. Where are these people getting their weapons, food, ammunition for 8 years?
MAYBE, just MAYBE from Taliban which was ruling Afghanistan and had the complete monetary and material support from Pakistan! Its only when the
dog starts barking at its master that you question the funding, weapons, food, etc?
 
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I take your case, since at the time of agression in '47, Kashmir was not a part of India.

Siachen was an unoccupied area, India chose to occupy it. Kargil OTOH was in the Indian side of the LoC, and the Pakistani Army chose to occupy the bunkers constructed by India! There is a major difference b/w Siachen and Kargil.
Malay,

My objective in pointing out India's aggression in 1971 and Siachen (semantics really when it comes to comparing it to Kargil since the entire territory is disputed, and Kargil was unoccupied at the time) is to point out that India has been the aggressor without provocation as well as Pakistan, not that India is to blame more than Pakistan. That therefore negates the entire premise the author uses to support his argument, and your point that I initially responded to, that a strong and stable Pakistan has 'always sought to undermine India'.

The 'undermining' has been done by both sides, with far more success by India. It is unfortunate that some actually continue to believe that a weak Pakistan is in India's interests - it unfortunately also validates a lot of suspicions Pakistanis have that India does not and will not accept a strong and prosperous Pakistan.

Hang on Agno, I disagree, Pakistan did not fulfill its own obligations as well-demilitarization. But lets assume that even if India chose to rule out the recommended legal and diplomatic solutions, does Pakistan get full authority to constantly try and change the status quo by force?

You said Pakistan's strategy regarding Kashmir has changed over the years. I ask you-how? They used irregulars and Army in '47, '65, '99, what was the difference? What was the change of strategy?

Therein lies the problem, had Pakistan not decided to use terrorists to put pressure on India, because it could not match India's military conventionally, such a situation would not have occured.

You are completely missing the point of having a large nation, even if divided right at the center. Then Pakistan would have truely been a counterweight to India, now its not.
I disagree that Pakistan did not fulfill its obligations. The posts in the UN resolutions thread indicate that Pakistan did indeed fulfill its obligations, and that it was in fact India that did not, as noted by the UN official's comments in that thread.

Pakistan had claim to the territory, it was recognized by the UN, and India chose to declare the issue closed unilaterally. What route did Pakistan have to claim what she believed to be rightful hers, when India closed all doors to a diplomatic and peaceful resolution? Remember that even now your country refuses to even officially recognize there is a dispute, let alone try to resolve it.

The situation in 47 was not similar to what occurred later on. In 47 the effort was initiated by the locals and the Tribals, with Pakistan stepping in, in terms of some material and organizational support, after the effort started (it was very limited and quite pathetic in fact, given the lack of resources, military and economic, that Pakistan herself faced in those early days). India was not involved at that point, and therefore the argument that it was a means to circumvent the relative strength of the Indian military is incorrect. Once India did militarily go into Kashmir, Pakistan also chose to send its Military in, so it in fact met the challenge head on.

With respect to the later efforts at helping start an uprising in Kashmir, one must understand that the objectives were to make Indian occupation both patently unpopular and expensive, not start a war. No sane individual seeks out war, and Pakistan was no exception. As I argued above, India had closed all doors to a diplomatic resolution of the dispute, and the support for the insurgency was an attempt to change that stalemate, while avoiding war.

Unfortunately it didn't work in 1965 (avoiding war), though it panned out in the second phase of the insurgency. Nonetheless, at this point I find overtly supporting a militant movement to be counterproductive, and its seems many in the Pakistani establishment are thinking along those lines as well.

Now about the larger nation - I do not think that mere territorial size lends to strength. Were the two wings not separated by a hostile nation, I would agree with you, but within the context of the geo-political dynamics of South Asia, Pakistan and Bangladesh are better off and more secure as independent nations.
 
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No that was not the only reason, i just gave one example. Yes refugee what hurt India.

So any reasons along the lines of, oh I don't know, that perhaps that India should not be considering destabilizing Pakistan and sponsoring violence within their borders, as the author suggests?

Or are you just finding it impossible to accept Pakistan as she is?
 
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Sir if you had watched carefuly the Indian media totaly skips problems of millions of Indians but the main headlines and flashing stories are either about bollywood or fals claims of shining India or Indeed about blaming Pakistan for everything.

When Jaypor witnessed blasts in May i was amazed to see that no sooner the Indian Channels start showing discussion programes wherein the Indian intellecutals were hissing with anger and forcing the Indian Governement to end ties with Pakistan and go all out for a big offensive against Pakistan to teach it a lessen :disagree:

I was so shocked to see that they were trying to force the governement to take stupid steps out of anger.
This is what I constantly refer to - India may not have an 'official position' of wanting a weak Pakistan, but the hate and paranoia that exudes from large sections of its intelligentsia is a palpable indicator of the sorts of attitudes that are possibly impacting policy making vis vis Pakistan.

We constantly get the accusation thrown at us that 'Pakistani establishment has brainwashed its population', when one could in fact argue that paranoid hate and hostility is far more obvious on the other side.

No one as of yet has outright condemned the ideas presented by the author on this thread for example.
 
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So any reasons along the lines of, oh I don't know, that perhaps that India should not be considering destabilizing Pakistan and sponsoring violence within their borders, as the author suggests?

Or are you just finding it impossible to accept Pakistan as she is?

No on the contrary, you have completly misunderstood me. I would not like Pakistan to be fragmented. If it is then the reasons would be:

1. Refugees
2. India would have to deal with numerous foe, instead of one.
3. The region would become more destabilized then ever.
4. Terrorism would certainly increase
5. Chines threat to take over fragmented pieces, That would increase China conventional war with India.
6. Energy from central Asia would even become harder to get.
7. India would be surrounded by countries where idealogy does not meet, which becomes harder to garnish piece.
etc........

I can list more.

That is why pakistan should not be destabilized. This factors are important for the region and India. And i would assume the Pakistan would face the same problems as i have mentioned above.
 
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MAYBE, just MAYBE from Taliban which was ruling Afghanistan and had the complete monetary and material support from Pakistan! Its only when the
dog starts barking at its master that you question the funding, weapons, food, etc?

TTP is not Talibaaaan. Yes we support the Taliban against Northern Alliance (AKA Pak enemies). What's that got to do with the fact that you're now supporting TTP and previously supported the BLA before we kicked their collective behinds.

Which is why the Amreekans won't fire upon them when we give them complete coordinates of Baitullah Mehsud.
 
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Its perfectly on topic. We are discussing the stability of Pakistan...well, that's how you achieve stability.

Creating a national obsession/ revenge psychology is definitely not how you do it.

No we are discussing the authors opinion that a 'stable and strong' Pakistan is not in India's interest - there is a huge difference between what you said and what the authors argument is.

Sorry, but when we have an internationally recognized claim to disputed territory, continuing to advocate for its resolution, and support the people of that land, based on moral and legally outlined principles is not 'obsession', it is the right thing to do.
 
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No on the contrary, you have completly misunderstood me. I would not like Pakistan to be fragmented. If it is then the reasons would be:

1. Refugees
2. India would have to deal with numerous foe, instead of one.
3. The region would become more destabilized then ever.
4. Terrorism would certainly increase
5. Chines threat to take over fragmented pieces, That would increase China conventional war with India.
6. Energy from central Asia would even become harder to get.
7. India would be surrounded by countries where idealogy does not meet, which becomes harder to garnish piece.
etc........

I can list more.

That is why pakistan should not be destabilized. This factors are important for the region and India. And i would assume the Pakistan would face the same problems as i have mentioned above.

Oh c'mon man, those are lame excuses.

You would want Pak destroyed

1) To win on the Kashmir Issue
2) To stick it up to Pakistanis for ever dividing your sacred Akhand Bharat!
 
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No we are discussing the authors opinion that a 'stable and strong' Pakistan is not in India's interest - there is a huge difference between what you said and what the authors argument is.

Sorry, but when we have an internationally recognized claim to disputed territory, continuing to advocate for its resolution, and support the people of that land, based on moral and legally outlined principles is not 'obsession', it is the right thing to do.

And I'm sure you are doing your best to "legally" solve the issue.

You are completely missing the point.
 
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