South China Sea tensions

[Guest]

Vietnam cant do anything w/o the support either its logistic or military support from U.S..... so please Vietnam pplz don't fight coz either you loose or won all benefits goes to U.S.......

a war between China and Vietnam? not likely, Chinese leader will not make such a silly decision definitely. Oil and gas are attractive but expendable, especially when they are compared to the rise of RMB and Euro (neither of them can challange Dollar by themselves).If China decide to side with EU, then China have to hold her horse (no matter how angry she is).

And China's choice is obvious when China rejects the G2 proposal, which says ,in short, China can do whatever she wants in Asia but have to give up the idea of internationalizing RMB and help US to secure the dominance of Dollar.

This the reason why these two countries dare to confront with the PLAN whit their 30 to 50-year-old warships. But if Chinese navy did open fire in someday. It means US managed to push China back to the G2 table, and RMB (together with Euro) will be forgetten as foreign reserves in no time. but that would be the doom day of them.

 

[beijingwalker]

haha,in China we have tons of Vietnamese POWs photos,the official number of POWs,China capture 2200 vietnamese POWs,and Vietnam just got 280.see the big difference.

---------- Post added at 09:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 PM ----------

China by the 70s had been preparing war against soviet union for more than a decade,just as Mao told the world,"there must be a war between China and russia." China used the tactic of beating the dog to prod the master into action.china stationed 1.5 million troops preparing a full scale war with russia,so it's determination can be easily seen,but the master didnt care about the beaten dog,a big war was narrowly avoided.

third party source

Sino-Vietnamese War
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Chinese invaded Northern Vietnam and captured some of the northernmost cities in Vietnam. On March 6 China declared that the gate to Hanoi was open and that their punitive mission had been achieved and retreated back to China. Both China and Vietnam claimed victory in the last of the Indochina Wars of the twentieth century; as Vietnamese troops remained in Cambodia until 1989 it can be said that the PRC failed to achieve the goal of dissuading Vietnam from involvement in Cambodia. China achieved its strategic objective of reducing the offensive capability of Vietnam along the Sino-Vietnam border by implementing a scorched earth policy. China also achieved another strategic objective of demonstrating to its Cold War foe, the Soviet Union, that they were unable to protect their Vietnamese ally. As many as 1.5 million Chinese troops were stationed along China's borders with the USSR at the time and were prepared for a full-scale war.

Bruce Elleman "one of the primary diplomatic goals behind China's attack was to expose Soviet assurances of military support to Vietnam as a fraud. Seen in this light, Beijing's policy was actually a diplomatic success, since Moscow did not actively intervene, thus showing the practical limitations of the Soviet-Vietnamese military pact.... China achieved a strategic victory by minimizing the future possibility of a two-front war against the USSR and Vietnam."

 

[beijingwalker]

Vietnamese are just a bunch of ingrates

Chinese Support for North Vietnam during the Vietnam War: The Decisive Edge

by Bob Seals
Military History Online - Chinese Support for North Vietnam during the Vietnam War: The Decisive Edge

“Best turn it into a bigger war…I’m afraid you really ought to send more troops to the South…Don’t be afraid of U.S. intervention, at most it’s no worse than having another Korean War. The Chinese army is prepared, and if America takes the risk of attacking North Vietnam, the Chinese army will march in at once. Our troops want a war now.”[1]
-- Mao speaking to the North Vietnamese in 1964

So why did the powerful modern nations of France and the United States lose two wars in Vietnam to a third rate military power like North Vietnam? This is the logical question that many historians have asked and attempted to answer since the Second Vietnam War ended in April 1975 with the fall of Saigon to North Vietnamese tanks.

This Chinese military support, to include equipment, advisors and planning assistance, provided from 1949-1975, would prove in both the First and Second Indochina Wars to be decisive. This substantial military support would give the People‘s Army of Vietnam an edge to resist Western forces and eventually subjugate the Republic of South Vietnam. This support, for various reasons, has never really been acknowledged by most popular histories of the conflict. This is perhaps due to the fact that such acknowledgement of the massive Chinese military support provided challenges many cherished myths of Vietnamese Communist military brilliance and the “heroic struggle” against overwhelming western imperialists. Two recent histories bear this out. Case in point A Military History of China, edited by David A. Graff makes no mention of Chinese support for Vietnam while Bruce A. Elleman’s Modern Chinese Warfare, 1795-1989, dismisses Chinese support in a mere two sentences.[3] However, unless this decisive Chinese support is properly understood by students of both Vietnam wars the answer to the question of why North Vietnam won will remain incomplete and misunderstood. This paper will attempt to outline the Chinese communist support in both wars and explain exactly why this support was so decisive.

China communist Party and North Vietnam power signed up agreements about PLA sent troops to Vietnam fight against American imperialist in 1965. At the same year, PLA send air defensive missile force, air defensive artillery, engineering force, railways troops, sweep mine team and shipping fleet and so on support North Vietnam. And carried on battle and supported tasks.
Chia total sent 320,000 troops to support North Vietnam until 1968 March, At the same time, China provided numerous military equipments and battle supplies. Include 170 planes, 140 ships and 500 tanks, 16000 trucks, cannon 37000, 2.16 millions guns ,bullets and shells add up to 12800 millions. In additional to these, and trained 6000 persons and technologists, through Vietnam war ,China gave an huge human power, finance, substance assistances for North Vietnam, count in supplies equality more the 20 billion dollars.

if not for this,north viet nam would be crushed in a month

 

[Obambam]

Oh, you dont' know that ??learn again history from 1979 bro ?

Nice pics bro.

Captured Vietnamese elite soldiers being treated by warm hearted Chinese soldiers.

VN elite soldiers stripping their Versace, Gucci and D&G's after returning from the prison camps. All gifts from the nice Chinese soldiers.

Chinese trainee soldiers celebrating after winning the war.

 

[beijingwalker]

China eventually won the war ,all the objectives were achieved by the Chinese side. viets pulling out of combodia,disputed land,international support...viet nam lost everything but its master soviet union which be soon to collapse,a really bad gambit by the viet namese government.

wikipedia

Aftermath

To reduce Vietnam's military capability against China, the Chinese implemented a "scorched-earth policy" while returning to China, causing extensive damage to the Vietnamese countryside and infrastructure.[31] Although Vietnam continued to occupy Cambodia, China successfully mobilized international opposition to the occupation, rallying such leaders as Cambodia's deposed king Norodom Sihanouk, Cambodian anticommunist leader Son Sann, and high-ranking members of the Khmer Rouge to deny the pro-Vietnam regime in Cambodia diplomatic recognition beyond the Soviet bloc. China improved relations with ASEAN by promising protection to Thailand and Singapore against "Vietnamese aggression". In contrast, Vietnam's decreasing prestige in the region led it to be more dependent on the Soviet Union, to which it leased a naval base at Cam Ranh Bay.[32]

Border skirmishes continued throughout the 1980s, including a significant skirmish in April 1984.

Armed conflict only ended in 1989 after the Vietnamese agreed to fully withdraw from Cambodia.

This conflict also saw the first use of the Type 81 assault rifle by the Chinese and a naval battle over the Spratly Islands in 1988. In 1999 after many years of negotiations, China and Vietnam signed a border pact, though the line of demarcation remained secret.[33] There was a very slight adjustment of the land border, resulting in land being given up to China, which caused the widespread complaints within Vietnam.[

 

[Guest]

No, we feel Nothing, we got used to with war already , and we will win as usual

Never stop smiling

I don't know what "win" means in your dictionary. But what I remember was, your closest ally at that time ,USSR , did not fulfill their promise during the your war with China as they noticed 60,000 NATO soldiers were conducting a military execrise in their west front. Pathetic isn't it? But this what politics is, you are not inexpendable. the only question is: how much!

 

[beijingwalker]

China lost 6000 soliders but Viet Nam lost much more.if you say the casuality number is disputable,no fact from both sides is We capture 2210 pows,they only got 238. ten times the difference.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chinese casualties

To this day, both sides of the conflict describe themselves as the
victor. The number of casualties is disputed, with some Western sources
putting PLA casualties at more than 20,000 throughout the war. Chinese democracy activist Wei Jingsheng told
western media in 1980 the Chinese troops had suffered 9,000 deaths and more than 10,000 wounded during the war,[25] but a recent leak showed that the PLA had 6,954 killed and 14,800 wounded,[5] and 238 Prisoners of War[26] in the course of the war.



Vietnamese casualties

There are no independently verifiable details of Vietnamese
casualties; like their counterparts in the Chinese government, the
Vietnamese government has never announced any information on its actual
military casualties. The Nhan Dan newspaper[27]
the Central Organ of the Communist Party of Vietnam claimed that
Vietnam suffered more than 10,000 civilian deaths during the Chinese
invasion[27] and earlier on May 17, 1979, reported statistics on heavy losses of industry and agriculture properties.[27]

Vietnamese armed personnel:

Regular forces (from Chinese sources): 100,100 killed in total, Wounded: more than 10,000. 2210 Prisoners of War.[5][28] Province Militia and divisions of the Public Security Army: unknown, the causality estimated: 70,000[29]

Read more: War-Gaming: Study Contemplates Conflict Between India and China - Global Spin - TIME.com

 

[beijingwalker]

See how Vietnam begged China after the collapse of USSR

In Defense of Socialism, 1990–1991

After the collapse of
socialist regimes in Eastern Europe, the VCP chief and defense minister
sought an ideological alliance with China.

As Party Chief Nguyen Van Linh explained to the Chinese ambassador to Vietnam on
June 5, 1990, the situation was marked by the West’s offensive to eliminate socialism
and concurrently the difficulties of the Soviet Union in defending socialism.

In
this situation, Linh concluded,“China should raise high the banner of
socialism and stick to Marxism-Leninism.”22 Linh and Defense Minister Le
Duc Anh hoped that China would take the leadership of the world’s
socialist forces; they indicated to the ambassador that they were ready
to meet Chinese leaders to discuss solidarity between the two states to
fight imperialism.

.
.

On September 2 that year,
Vietnam’s Independence Day, the party and government chiefs did not stay
in Hanoi to celebrate the 45th birthday of their state but instead flew
to Chengdu, China, for a secret summit with Chinese leaders, the first
since the mid-1970s.

The Vietnamese understood that their acceptance
of the time, place, and participants was a sign of deference to China.

.
.

Participants
included Vietnam’s elder statesman Pham Van Dong but not China’s
paramount leader Deng Xiaoping; Foreign Minister Thach was excluded.
During the meeting, the Vietnamese also let the Chinese dictate the
terms of negotiation;this should be seen against the background of a
decade-long hostility between the two countries.

The Vietnamese
had urgent reasons for taking this approach. At the time, the
counterweight of the Soviet Union was no longer available and Vietnam
was still isolated, regionally and globally. In China, Vietnam faced a
disproportionately powerful neighbor, and in order to prevent Chinese
aggression, Hanoi had to pay deference to Beijing. It appeared to be the
calculation of Pham Van
Dong and, to some extent, Prime Minister Do Muoi.

Yet, as discussed above, General Secretary Nguyen Van Linh had different concerns and priorities.
His
primary intention at Chengdu was to discuss how to protect socialism
from the West, led by the United States. Although the Chinese refused to
play the solidarity game, Linh and his successors over the next decade
kept trying to reestablish the Sino-Vietnamese relationship on an
ideological basis.

www.yale.edu/seas/Vuving.doc · DOC file

---------- Post added at 09:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:29 PM ----------

see the third party assesment of that war

Sino-Vietnamese War
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The
Chinese invaded Northern Vietnam and captured some of the northernmost
cities in Vietnam. On March 6 China declared that the gat
e to Hanoi was
open and that their
punitive mission had been achieved and retreated
back to China. Both China and Vietnam claimed victory in the last of the
Indochina Wars of the twentieth century; as Vietnamese troops remained
in Cambodia until 1989 it can be said that the PRC failed to achieve the
goal of dissuading Vietnam from involvement in Cambodia. China achieved
its strategic objective of reducing the offensive capability of Vietnam
along the Sino-Vietnam border by implementing a scorched earth policy.
China also achieved another strategic objective of demonstrating to its
Cold War foe, the Soviet Union, that they were unable to protect their
Vietnamese ally. As many as 1.5 million Chinese troops were stationed
along China's borders with the USSR at the time and were prepared for a
full-scale war.

Bruce Elleman "one of the primary diplomatic
goals behind China's attack was to expose Soviet assurances of military
support to Vietnam as a fraud. Seen in this light, Beijing's policy was
actually a diplomatic success, since Moscow did not actively intervene,
thus showing the practical limitations of the Soviet-Vietnamese military
pact.... China achieved a strategic victory by minimizing the future
possibility of a two-front war against the USSR and Vietnam."

 

[beijingwalker]

this Wikipedia part is sad,but that's the true color of wars,hopefully we can all avoid wars in the future.

On March 6, China declared that the gate to Hanoi was open and that their punitive mission had been achieved. On the way back to the Chinese border, the PLA destroyed all local infrastructure and housing and looted all useful equipment and resources (including livestock), completely paralyzing the economy of northern Vietnam.[5] The PLA crossed the border back into China on March 16. While China claimed to have crushed the Vietnamese resistance, Vietnam claimed that China had mostly only fought against border militias. This allowed both sides to claim military victory, as both sides claimed to have taught their opponent a lesson.[24]

 

[I was in the frontier]

China lost 6000 soliders but Viet Nam lost much more.if you say the casuality number is disputable,no fact from both sides is We capture 2210 pows,they only got 238. ten times the difference.

You seem to be mentally unstable.

There are no independently verifiable details of Vietnamese
casualties; like their counterparts in the Chinese government,

in the Vietnam, China's actions in 1979, look like Khmer Rouge murderers and unrepeatable.

 

[oct605032048]

your english is poor.

 

[beijingwalker]

You seem to be mentally unstable.

in the Vietnam, China's actions in 1979, look like Khmer Rouge murderers and unrepeatable.

haha,I mentioned that there is no undisputable casuality number.but those estimates were made by international organizations based on the resources they got.and at least one thing is very precise and accruate,that is we captured 2210 Prisoners of War and you just got 238 ,that proportion can speak for the casuality also.

 

[beijingwalker]

and the result of the war...China got everything it wants. and Vietnamese leaders had to come to China and asked for China's forgiveness with great great remorse,begging China to take the leadership and also money to feed their poor nation.that's the result,Vietnam lost everything.

 

[I was in the frontier]

this Wikipedia part is sad,but that's the true color of wars,hopefully we can all avoid wars in the future.

yes.

the PLA destroyed all local infrastructure and housing and looted all useful equipment and resources (including livestock), completely paralyzing the economy of northern Vietnam.[5]

it's pretty obvious that China's actions were definitely immoral. unlike the image before you post:

from 1979, we are deployed to watch any suspicious movement, and soldiers patrolling with a finger on the trigger.

 

[beijingwalker]

War always has its true face,we should not try to conceal it,see what happened in Iraq or Afhanistan,it's always the local people who suffer the most.so hopefully we are not going to another war.