South China Sea Forum

[Dungeness]

We can draw the reference to some countries which claim the territorial rights after land reclamation such as the Netherlands, Singapore etc cant we?

They can be disputed, but the ground reality is China is on those islands and building them continuously, but this is not my point. By the provoking action of the US, it is confirmed that everyone is taking 12 miles seriously, and itself is a huge gain for China.

 

[Indus Falcon]

This could get real ugly, real fast!!

 

[Solomon2]

The point tho that various parties have alluded to is China's binding nature to UNCLOS since she is a signatory member. This is something often not impressed upon.

By "agreeing" to cooperate via treaty yet insisting that nobody can do anything in the disputed area without permission China is in effect demanding "the lion's share":

A hyena and a lion who go hunting. The lion divides their take into three, awarding himself the first because he is king of the beasts, the second because they are 'equal' partners, and suggesting that the hyena runs away quickly before daring to touch the third. ​

 

[Zsari]

Two points can be disputed.

1. I am not sure if those reefs were fully submerged at low tide before China took them in 1988. 2. I am not sure if those reefs can be considered as "fringing reefs of a coastal state".

Natural feature of the reefs are described below.
List of maritime features in the Spratly Islands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most if not all of the reefs in the Spratly chain are classified as atolls.

 

[EAsian]

They can be disputed, but the ground reality is China is on those islands and building them continuously, but this is not my point. By the provoking action of the US, it is confirmed that everyone is taking 12 miles seriously, and itself is a huge gain for China.

Too passive and unnecessary，as I have said.You said your own opinion.No need to make as if you have said something through what your enemy against.It sounds funny.More like a joke rather than a huge gain.

 

[terranMarine]

Keep it up and China will eventually militarize our islands and slap the Viets with our own Southern ADIZ

 

[Keel]

They can be disputed, but the ground reality is China is on those islands and building them continuously, but this is not my point. By the provoking action of the US, it is confirmed that everyone is taking 12 miles seriously, and itself is a huge gain for China.

Of course and we havent make the declaration as yet even though by the Law of Territorial Waters (UN Convention of the Law of the Sea) the 12-mile demarcations should be honoured and respected

As I said it is just a "showing off" of the hawks who is blaming the Obama admin's getting too soft on China and again it is entering into the election year, they need votes

GOP congressional leaders denounce U.S.-China deal on climate change - The Washington Post
Matt Kaminski on Robert Menendez: Return of the Hawkish Democrat - WSJ

By "agreeing" to cooperate via treaty yet insisting that nobody can do anything in the disputed area without permission China is in effect demanding "the lion's share":

A hyena and a lion who go hunting. The lion divides their take into three, awarding himself the first because he is king of the beasts, the second because they are 'equal' partners, and suggesting that the hyena runs away quickly before daring to touch the third. ​

YOu need to actually count the total number of islands that each of the countries has already occupied
China, Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines ... then you should know who is now getting the "Lion's Share" in reality

 

[Solomon2]

YOu need to actually count the total number of islands that each of the countries have already occupied China, Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines ... then you should know who is now getting the "Lion's Share" in reality

Most Chinese don't know about UNCLOS. Number counting games have no role. There are dispute mechanisms in UNCLOS. There are even procedures for uninhabited and artificial islands in UNCLOS. Chinese government's approach is to trash them all and declare that what they say China wants is what China deserves to get. The Party is blinding the people.

 

[Keel]

Even if you count this petty patrol as an american victory then it should be

1 US 7 China

since we have reclaimed so many islands before this childish, frivolous patrol

 

[tranquilium]

China - 1 USA - 1

Chinese navy ships entered U.S. waters off Alaska - CNNPolitics.com

 

[Keel]

Most Chinese don't know about UNCLOS. Number counting games have no role. There are dispute mechanisms in UNCLOS. There are even procedures for uninhabited and artificial islands in UNCLOS. Chinese government's approach is to trash them all and declare that what they say China wants is what China deserves to get. The Party is blinding the people.

No role? it's occupation that counts and that is the reason why our building and occupation of the islands irk the yankees so much!

We are talking about who has the "Lion's Share" of the islands. By "Lion's share" it means actual occupation

 

[Zsari]

Most Chinese don't know about UNCLOS. Number counting games have no role. There are dispute mechanisms in UNCLOS. There are even procedures for uninhabited and artificial islands in UNCLOS. Chinese government's approach is to trash them all and declare that what they say China wants is what China deserves to get. The Party is blinding the people.

And which text in UNCLOS describe the procedures for uninhabited and artificial islands? As far as dispute mechanism is concerned, China has already upon the ratification of the treaty followed the procedure in accordance to article 298 in declaring that it rejects any such arbitration.


Article 298
Optional exceptions to applicability of section 2
1. When signing, ratifying or acceding to this Convention or at any time thereafter, a State may, without prejudice to the obligations arising under section 1, declare in writing that it does not accept any one or more of the procedures provided for in section 2 with respect to one or more of the following categories of disputes:
(a) (i) disputes concerning the interpretation or application of articles 15, 74 and 83 relating to sea boundary delimitations, or those involving historic bays or titles, provided that a State having made such a declaration shall, when such a dispute arises subsequent to the entry into force of this Convention and where no agreement within a reasonable period of time is reached in negotiations between the parties, at the request of any party to the dispute, accept submission of the matter to conciliation under Annex V, section 2; and provided further that any dispute that necessarily involves the concurrent consideration of any unsettled dispute concerning sovereignty or other rights over continental or insular land territory shall be excluded from such submission;
(ii) after the conciliation commission has presented its report, which shall state the reasons on which it is based, the parties shall negotiate an agreement on the basis of that report; if these negotiations do not result in an agreement, the parties shall, by mutual consent, submit the question to one of the procedures provided for in section 2, unless the parties otherwise agree;
(iii) this subparagraph does not apply to any sea boundary dispute finally settled by an arrangement between the parties, or to any such dispute which is to be settled in accordance with a bilateral or multilateral agreement binding upon those parties;
(b) disputes concerning military activities, including military activities by government vessels and aircraft engaged in non-commercial service, and disputes concerning law enforcement activities in regard to the exercise of sovereign rights or jurisdiction excluded from the jurisdiction of a court or tribunal under article 297, paragraph 2 or 3;
(c) disputes in respect of which the Security Council of the United Nations is exercising the functions assigned to it by the Charter of the United Nations, unless the Security Council decides to remove the matter from its agenda or calls upon the parties to settle it by the means provided for in this Convention.

Well China can always deploy a Type 056 some 10 miles off the Virginia coast.

A tit for tat, or is it a tat for tit?

What's there to gain? What US does around the Chinese controlled islands, China can do around islands controlled by other claimants, even in area where it doesn't have a dispute in. Now that is something where gains can be made.

 

[Solomon2]

And which text in UNCLOS describe the procedures for uninhabited and artificial islands?

If you are that interested you can click the embedded link in my post and explore further the UNCLOS text yourself.

As far as dispute mechanism is concerned, China has already upon the ratification of the treaty followed the procedure in accordance to article 298 in declaring that it rejects any such arbitration.

The exception cited provides for a conciliation commission to review and report. China rejects that, too.

 

[xunzi]

The best response is keep quiet from our media stand point, meanwhile aggressively tracking their ship and lock on to them. Continue to build on our islands and install defense post in case of the worse.

 

[Zsari]

If you are that interested you can click the embedded link in my post and explore further the UNCLOS text yourself.

The exception cited provides for a conciliation commission to review and report. China rejects that, too.

Yes China is exercising its right allowed for by the treaty in rejecting any of the procedures in Section 2. And don't be lazy, please cite the articles in your argument.