South Asia Air Forces: PAF counters IAF strategy

[Xeric]

Enigma Calm down

Well did i offend you
If yes, there is nothing much that can be done, but that was not the aim

Firstly There is not going to be no War between india & Pakistan. Mumbai bombing taught us that much. India will never start a war unless Pakistan simlpy started Bombing or taking territory.

Ya we and all others know it, so what's the point?
One more thing, it would have been better if you have said Pakistan will never start a war unless indian simply started bombing or taking territory,because we never have had aggressive designs against india, it always have bee the other way round.

With regards Pakistan attacking anybody let alone South ASIA most powerful nation they need to sort out their Taliban issues and increasing pressure from USA first as well as sorting out a crippling economy in debt..

Ok, but what is it (the Talibans and economy stuff) doing in a PAF vs IAF thread??

As for China i think Pakistanis are looking for a Big powerful ally to suport them in case of a regional hegomistic bully india tries anthing. But believe me India is big teddy bear and pakistan won,t need china or those big lists of future JF17.J10. India is too weak in mindset to cause pakistan problems,..

i can only or on this weakened indian mindset of yours.
Thanks, anywaz.

 

[spsk]

Well did i offend you
If yes, there is nothing much that can be done, but that was not the aim

Ya we and all others know it, so what's the point?
One more thing, it would have been better if you have said Pakistan will never start a war unless indian simply started bombing or taking territory,because we never have had aggressive designs against india, it always have bee the other way round.


Ok, but what is it (the Talibans and economy stuff) doing in a PAF vs IAF thread??


i can only or on this weakened indian mindset of yours.
Thanks, anywaz.

You are wrong that Pakistan never been an aggressor, Even in this decade who was aggressor in Kargil ?

 

[maverick2009]

Enigma.

I,m british Not indian.##I have an English mindset..

 

[godsavetheworld]

As for China i think Pakistanis are looking for a Big powerful ally to suport them in case of a regional hegomistic bully india tries anthing. But believe me India is big teddy bear and pakistan won,t need china or those big lists of future JF17.J10. India is too weak in mindset to cause pakistan problems,..

You are sooo wrong. The first time you shout at us, we talk, the second time you shout at us, we talk again, the third time you do that we cut off your arm, and make you groan in pain.
1971 is something that still makes every Pakistani cringe.

So dont take India's resiliance and restraint as its weakness. We have the capacity to blow the hell out of any one who chooses to challange us. .

 

[Xeric]

For Zeus

World record: 500th Indian “Flying Coffin” Mig crashes. The IAF has the worst crash record on the planet

The IAF has the worst crash record on the planet. This is a world record. No other Air force has had the ignominious honor of so many crashes on non-battle conditions. The Indian press refers to the Mig 21 as the Flying Coffin, but they are all flying coffins or crematiion discs for the IAF pilots. There are have been more crashes of this aircraft than the entire airforces of more than half the world. The crash of the 500th plane serves as a milestone as the highest number of crashes of any airforce in the world in the history of mankind. The bulk of the Indian Airforce is made up of all this flying junk that succumbs to gravity more then the bellies in the Indian Lok Sabha.

The problem is not a new one. It is as old as the IAF itself.
In the early 1980s, the IAF decided that it was facing unacceptably high levels of losses of both aircraft and fighter pilots and set up a committee under Air Marshal La Fontaine to study the problem. The committee submitted its report in 1984 saying that the accidents were a result of young pilots having to “convert onto” high performance MiG-21 fighters straight from basic jet training on the HAL Kiran or the PZL Iskra. The committee went on to recommend that the solution lay with introducing an advanced jet trainer to bridge the gap between the two stages. The Hindu 2001
It has been reported in the magazine “Indian Aviation” that the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) in its 29th report to the Parliament on 21 March 2002 has called for immediate phasing out of the MiG-21 fleet of the Indian Air Force. Every year we hear that the Indian Airforceis going to scrap the Migs, but they keep flying (kind off). A BBC report in 2002 listed more than 250 crases. The real number is like 500 crashes, but the IAF does not admit to that number
The La Fontaine Committee in 1982 had discovered a noticeable correlation between the pattern of training and aircraft accidents. The committee had also pointed out that there exists a quantum jump in skill and judgement as the IAF had no suitable operational transitional trainer aircraft to fill the intervening gap before the pilots are taken to operational fighter aircraft. The government had committed in 1982 itself that it will buy Advanced Jet Trainers to replace MiG-21s and Hunter aircraft as trainers. But after almost two decades and hundreds of accidents killing several young pilots, the AJT remains a distant dream. In fact, a cruel joke. The Hindu 2001

So what are the real reasons behind the crashes? Most of it can be attributed to poor training and bad pilots.
A detailed analysis of MiG-21 accidents reveals that the main cause factors are:

• Human Error (Aircrew).

• Technical Defects.

• Bird Strikes.

Human Error (Aircrew) constitutes about 40 % of all accidents in the MiG-21 and this percentage is not high at all and almost all Air Forces in the world have about the same percentage of Pilot Error accidents. In the words of ACM Tipnis, “MiG-21 is a high demand aircraft”. It certainly is a quantum jump for an inexperienced pilot who has just finished his training on sub-sonic jet trainers like Kiran or Iskra. IAF is using the MiG-21 in the AJT role, which is neither optimal for training nor cost effective.

MiG-21, although a high demand aircraft, is docile and has no aerodynamic vices. It has excellent handling characteristics and has served to provide very valuable flying experience to a large number of IAF pilots. Some like the previous and the present CASswear by the aircraft. It is the docility of the aircraft that not only generates a good bit of confidence but also encourages forays into exceeding the limits of the stipulated flight envelope. In air combat maneuvers, many inexperienced pilots have got into trouble without realizing it. At high angles of attack, the induced drag increases sharply and unless the angle of attack is quickly reduced, the aircraft develops a high rate of descent, which cannot be arrested with the power available (even with reheat). Added to this, there is no protest from the aircraft like severe shudder, wing rocking. etc, prevalent in other types of aircraft. This gives a feeling of well-being and a number of pilots did not recognize the danger in time to take recovery action or eject.

The training of pilots is under constant review with procedures being updated regularly and creating the required level of awareness. IAFhas very strict norms during each stage of training and only those who have the capability are posted to fly fighters. Even with the finest of filters there is always someone who would get through various stages without showing any weakness. Some of these individuals get in to trouble, fail to recover from difficult situations and sometimes they compound a simple emergency.
This is a human failing and is no different in any other part of the world and Indians alone cannot be singled out for it. One particular CAS (in mid 80s) is on record to have stated that “I would rather lose a pilot in an error type of accident than in actual combat, for those who survive the rigors of peace time would be really combat ready”. While this is one way of viewing an accident, the proper way would be to consider even “One accident as One too many”. It is very difficult particularly for the families of those who lost someone close to accept error or error of judgment on the part the individual.

It must be appreciated that the best of professionals make mistakes, be it Tendulkar, Tiger Woods or Pete Sampras. A fighter pilot has no chance like these top sportsman who are firmly on ground (not having challenged gravity) and are able to play the next innings or the next match.

A correspondent writes in Times News Network (Sunday, September 02, 2001) “The MiG-21s are arguably the most difficult to fly. Compare it to Mirage-2000 which has the fly-by-wire technology, making it very easy to fly”. Such off the cuff statements leads to all kinds of inference by the general public. Correspondents should use a lot of restraint while writing on complex technical matters. A-320 accident at Bangalore in 1990 is a case in example where fly-by-wire did not help when the pilots failed to manage energy properly.

Technical Defect accidents occur due to interplay of a complex set of factors. Technical defects leading to an accident could be either due to an inherent or an induced problem. The primary factors are:

• Design inadequacies Inherent

• Manufacturing/Overhaul Quality Induced

• Maintenance Induced

Operational Factors Induced


Traditionally, the Indian Air Force has relied very heavily on aircraft manufactured by the Russian aircraft manufacturer MiG.

Algeria had the guts and the gumptions to cancel the Russian purchase the return the sub standard planes back to Russia. Does India have the guts?

Algeria Returns Russian Migs, Demands Money Back

Russia sold the Migs-29’s to Algeria at cut-rate prices, and forgave past debts of $4.7 billion to get the deal

The Migs for Algeria were actually old airframes from the 1990’s with new equipment installed. The problem is that the frame and skin of an aircraft wears out, because it is constantly flexing in flight. Eventually it’s like repeatedly bending a wire in the same place, the metal starts to break apart.

No wonder Algeria was mad. They have also canceled an oil contract with the Russian national oil company Gazprom.

After Israel bombed the nuclear plant in Syria, StrategyPage.com predicted that many Russian military deals would falter. The Russian radar and anti-aircraft systems that were installed in Syria obviously didn’t work. Once customers find out that the equipment doesn’t do what it’s supposed to do, they get cranky and cancel contracts. This may be a contributory factor in the case of Algeria.
Russian military equipment is usually much cheaper than U.S. equipment, or the best European equipment. However, it’s usually just not as good. Rickety old Russian Migs are good enough for attacking rebels, or neighbors, but if you have to go up against the U.S. or her allies, you’re toast. Alt Net.

More coming....

 

[Xeric]

Enigma.

I,m british Not indian.##I have an English mindset..

Well you must have read the below quoted post, you really pissed the indians on this, you English mindset-ed

You are sooo wrong. The first time you shout at us, we talk, the second time you shout at us, we talk again, the third time you do that we cut off your arm, and make you groan in pain.
1971 is something that still makes every Pakistani cringe.

Take a glass of water and relax.

So dont take India's resiliance and restraint as its weakness. We have the capacity to blow the hell out of any one who chooses to challange us. .

With the tons of flying coffins?

 

[Xeric]

And Zeus and all..
i missed this

 

[godsavetheworld]

Well you must have read the below quoted post, you really pissed the indians on this, you English mindset-ed



Take a glass of water and relax.


With the tons of flying coffins?

No, but with the world's 2nd largest army, 4th strongest airforce, and 5th strongest Navy, whilst you keep talking about all those crappy statistics like some above.

 

[blain2]

You are sooo wrong. The first time you shout at us, we talk, the second time you shout at us, we talk again, the third time you do that we cut off your arm, and make you groan in pain.
1971 is something that still makes every Pakistani cringe.

So dont take India's resiliance and restraint as its weakness. We have the capacity to blow the hell out of any one who chooses to challange us. .

Wow! I have had my share of jingo BS for the day! Please give it a rest. Its always fun to talk about making someone 1/4th your size cringe when you have been unable to do anything about someone your own size (62/Aksai Chin). Lets not get carried away with the the self-created hype.

 

[Xeric]

No, but with the world's 2nd largest army, 4th strongest airforce, and 5th strongest Navy, whilst you keep talking about all those crappy statistics like some above.

Unfortunately, 1965, Kargil, Kashmir and Sino-indian conflict have proven this the other way round.

i am keeping '71 out because it was not war, it was backstabbing, '65 is what i call war. Face each other and kill them all!-not kick someone in the underbelly!

BTW, achievement like Catapult project, various missile projects 'success' and killing own pilots shamelessly would definitely qualify india to be feared from! (and i will quote the failures with examples to just wait)

P.S. With the above quoted rankings of yours, god-will-definitely-save-the-world

 

[TOPGUN]

And Zeus and all..
i missed this

Hahaha how cute lol hahahahahahah

 

[Sargodhian_Eagle]

Now PAF needs more focus on JF-17 n FC-20 coz israeli forgn minister said Pakistan is threat for Israel.
I think if israel is against Pakistan, then F-16C/D delivery will be affected by Jewish lobby of USA.
Secondly Israel has great n close ties with India

Israel

 

[Sargodhian_Eagle]

You are sooo wrong. The first time you shout at us, we talk, the second time you shout at us, we talk again, the third time you do that we cut off your arm, and make you groan in pain.
1971 is something that still makes every Pakistani cringe.

So dont take India's resiliance and restraint as its weakness. We have the capacity to blow the hell out of any one who chooses to challange us. .

Chill down
India n indians always sound that we hv best armed forces in subcontinent. but groung facts r oposite
I m going to mention the "Briliant Progress" of indian forces

1) In 1948, India lost the war with pak
2) In 1962, India got a shoe treat from China
3)In 1965, Pakistan defeated that contury which was 3 times greater in every fied like Army, Air Force n Milltary equipment

These wars r world known n nobody has doubt in these war results

Now come to nuclear power

Pakistan thought to develop the nuclear power at that time when India conducted the pokhran tests in 1974. So Pakistan developed the nuclear power very late than India n conducted Chaghi tests in 1998.
It mean gap b/w Pakistani n Indian nuclear power is abt 24 years.

In light of above, India must have more advance missiles but in this field india is also failed
1) Indian missiles r failed severl time but on the other hand by the grace of GOD, Pakistan is not failed in any missile test


So which hell u guys r going to open at Pakistan?

One thing more, In1998 Israel planed to attack the Pakistani nuclear instalment and asked india to provide Air Bases, but Indian gvt denied

Wjy they denied? U guys can open the hell on Pakistan but why u denied?
U denied coz India was afraid of Pakistan Armed Forces, specially PAF
so next time post the threat with logic

LOVE PAKISTAN

 

[Contrarian]

In light of above, India must have more advance missiles but in this field india is also failed
1) Indian missiles r failed severl time but on the other hand by the grace of GOD, Pakistan is not failed in any missile test

I didnt want to post here, but this one really made me start laughing!

Buddy, you do know why no Pakistani missile ever fails a test right? Let me help you there-its not exactly Pakistani!

 

[Keysersoze]

Sargodhian eagle stop using txt speech