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South Asia Air Forces: PAF counters IAF strategy

You are wrong that Pakistan never been an aggressor, Even in this decade who was aggressor in Kargil ?

Lolzzz...one so called 'aggression' and you are pissed off!

It hurts na..???:pop:

And BTW, you required it, we wanted to tell you that no 'happy go lucky' anymore:smokin:
 
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I didnt want to post here, but this one really made me start laughing!

Buddy, you do know why no Pakistani missile ever fails a test right? Let me help you there-its not exactly Pakistani!

Now coming this from you, it certainly is a low opinion malay. Now tell me what missile does Babur reflect too and why?

Now these are the threads i am sure you would find interesting:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/8651-pakistan-s-nuclear-missile-assets-myth-vs-reality.html
 
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Lolzzz...one so called 'aggression' and you are pissed off!

It hurts na..???:pop:

And BTW, you required it, we wanted to tell you that no 'happy go lucky' anymore:smokin:


Enigma, What benefit did Pakisthan get out of Kargil? It only alienated Pakisthan even more in the world. The military objectives behind this initiative were not achieved, and it even became a diplomatic disaster for Pakisthan.
For India, it did hurt because we lost some brave soldiers fighting in uniform under our flag. However it also helped us in a way that we were able to make our position on Kashmir more acceptable in the international community by projecting Pakisthan as the real trouble maker.
 
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Enigma, What benefit did Pakisthan get out of Kargil? It only alienated Pakisthan even more in the world. The military objectives behind this initiative were not achieved, and it even became a diplomatic disaster for Pakisthan.
For India, it did hurt because we lost some brave soldiers fighting in uniform under our flag. However it also helped us in a way that we were able to make our position on Kashmir more acceptable in the international community by projecting Pakisthan as the real trouble maker.

First, we achieved that we are no more in defensive mode anymore.

Second, it deterred india from taking on the Parakram adventure in 2001-02.

Third, it exposed your intelligence failure yet again.

Fourth, we came to know that how naive and confused india can go when subjected to pressure-remember shifting all your assets towards the Northern sector, thus leaving the South open to our offensive at our will?

As for your claim regarding your stance on Kashmir getting stronger, that didn't happen, but still can you shed some light on it?

And as of Pakistan being shown as a trouble maker, world has yet not forgotten the troubles india made in '48, '65 and '71.

Lastly the most important thing-dude the word is PAKISTAN not that you have spelled deliberately wrong for four times. Be careful you might find the mods behind your back!
 
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Allow me to clear the dust over the indian missile program:


The DRDO has been the but of jokes within Bharat and without. The Delhi press is full of disclosures of the failure of the almost all of the missile programs of India. Praful Badai has written extensively about the failed missiles. A recent satement from the highest official in the Indian army about the failure of the Indian missle program and te advice to scrap the local Indian missiles has raised suspicions that the latest missle test was rigged. The Mail Today newspaper on Wednesday quoted the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) as announcing that it would scrap its 25-year Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP) by the end of this year.

Plagued by cost overruns and repeated failures, the announcement is a virtual admission of failure,” the newspaper said.“In fact, some former chiefs of the different services said as much on hearing the news.”

Admiral L Ramdas, a former chief of staff of the Indian Navy, told Inter Press Service. “The Indian armed services’ experience with DRDO-made armaments has not been a happy one. Their reliability is often extremely poor. We often used to joke that one had to pray they would somehow work in the battlefield.”

The agency has a budget of Rs30 billion (US$670 million), which is of the same order as the annual expenditure of the Department of Atomic Energy which is responsible for India’s civilian and military nuclear programs. India exposed by missile failure By Praful Bidwai

All of Indi’a Rockets have failed. 1) Agni 2) Pirthivi 3) Akash 4) Trishul and 5) Nag 6) Agni consisting of surface to surface surface to air and anti-tank systems.

Prithvi: Failure: To date the only reliable delivery system inducted is the Pirthvi missile with a range of 300 kilometres. The subsequent versions of this missile are still undergoing tests. The pride of India the Agni missile tested last time landed 200 kilometres off target.

Akash: Failure: After several years of testing has been shelved for reasons best known to the Indians. Akash was meant as a substitute for Pechora. On the Akash missile, which was the subject of the DRDO media conference here on Tuesday, former air chief S. P. Tyagi said:“Akash was to be ready at a certain time, but it wasn’t. I had to change everything to make up for the delay.” Both missiles were part of a programme to develop indigenous weapons, which began in July 1983, with plans for Agni, Prithvi, Trishul, Akash and Nag missiles.

Trishul: Failure: Trishul is being replaced by Israeli Barak and Russian systems.

The IAF, for instance, has aging Pechora, Igla-1M and OSA-AK missile systems, and that, too, in woefully inadequate numbers.

While Trishul was to replace its OSA-AK weapons system, Akash was meant as a substitute for Pechora.

But both the Trishul and Akash air defence missile systems, which are part of the original Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme launched as far back as 1983, have been dogged by development snags in their “command guidance and integrated Ramjet rocket propulsion” systems.

Trishul, for instance, has been tested over 80 times so far without coming anywhere near becoming operational. It was, in fact, virtually given up for dead in 2003 after around Rs 300 crore was spent on it, before being revived yet again.

Trishul’s repeated failure, in fact, forced the Navy to go in for nine Israeli Barak anti-missile defence systems for its frontline warships, along with 200 Barak missiles, at a cost of Rs 1,510 crore during the 1999 Kargil conflict. The Navy is now inducting even more Barak systems due to Trishul’s continued failure.

Speaking of the Trishul surface-to-air missile that has now been termed a technology demonstrator, former naval chief Sushil Kumar said:“It was a national embarrassment. DRDO made fake claims for 25 years. In the 1999 Kargil conflict, the navy was vulnerable to attacks from Pakistan’s Harpoon.

“Finally the project was scrapped when the navy went in for the Israeli Barak missiles. The Prithvi’s naval variant, Dhanush, is also flawed and ill-conceived, which is being inflicted on the navy.”Indian missile system started back in the 50s on a five folder programme namely:

Nag: Failure: The Nag proved to be as deadly as the Holy Cow.

Agni: Failure: The Agni-I (range 700 to 800 kilometers) and Agni-II were both products of India’s space program and connected to its Integrated Guided Missile Development Program (IGMDP), itself launched in 1983. Originally, their design used a satellite space-launching rocket (SLV-3) as the first stage, on top of which was mounted the very short-range (150 to 250 kilometers) liquid fuel-propelled Prithvi missile.

The Agni-III’s brand new design, in which both stages use solid propellants, was to enable it to carry a payload weighing up to 1.5 tons and deliver it to targets as far away as Beijing and Shanghai. At present, India lacks an effective nuclear deterrent vis-a-vis China, based on a delivery vehicle carrying a nuclear warhead. Agni-III was meant to fill the void.

The failure of the Agni III was in some ways more serious because it exposed the political limitations of India’s attempts, despite its ambitions, to pursue a military capability which is truly independent of the US’s strategic calculations.

The surface-to-surface ballistic missile, designed to have a range of 3,500 kilometers, took off in a “fairly smooth” manner at the designated hour. But “a series of mishaps” occurred in its later flight path.

The Agni-III was originally meant to be tested in 2003-04. However, the test was postponed owing to technological snags. After their rectification, said reports, the missile’s test flights were put off twice largely for “political reasons”, so as not to annoy the US.

Earlier this year, India decided to postpone the missile test out of fear that a test could hamper US Congressional ratification of the India-US nuclear cooperation deal. Publicly, the Indian defense minister cited “self-imposed restraint” to justify the postponement.

The Indian missile met a disaster as it could not attain the altitude where the first stage is over or the second is even ignited.

He disputed the Indian claim, saying that with the range of 3,500 km, the missile had to go above about 800-900 km while the second stage had to be ignited at 28 to 30 km.

‘If the missile fell from the height of 12 km, it establishes that either it’s motor rocket, the basics of the missile proved failure or the guidance and control system was faulty. In both the probabilities, Indian technology has been exposed in clumsy manners.’

‘It is interesting to watch that Indian missile programme that was initiated by French and US assistance and later New Delhi also borrowed Russian technical support has been facing tragedies from the beginning,’ the newspaper quoted him as saying.
 
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Link please. And how did you manage to get the servicablity of IAF and PAF?...Even I who has good contacts in IAF cant do so. And I don't think PAF will be unprofessional too.
 
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We need to step into the next century, people are talking about pilots like it was the 1970's. As far I know most kills will be BVR. Our pilots did their job previous war, next war its going to be the equipment he uses.
 
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bhaut natak ho gaya forum par:woot:.... ab ek war toh ho hi jaye:cheesy::guns::guns::D
 
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as far as going by logic is concerned there is no way that a technologically deprived PAF can match the IAF which has all the money and international access to the technology of the morrow....
the only supplier to the PAf are the chinese...their planes are combat tested only in Africa...and are direct copies of other western/russian/israeli planes...
a)in terms of numerical superiority...PAF is outmatched...
b)in terms of technological superiority...PAF is out matched...from the Mig-21 Bison...to the mig-29...the Mrage-2000..the Su-30MKI... the MRCA winner...and to the Lakshya....there is very little you can counter with
c)in terms of serviceability...the americans have given you a hard time with the spares for f-16s havent they?and somebody wrote that "pakistan doesnt upgrade the old planes...but dumps them altogether..."the 'ROSE' upgrade for the old mirages is happening..
so there is not much to discuss here...
you say that your pilots scared the indian planes who strayed into your airspace...why dint your pilots help your army when they were getting precision-pounded in kargil?
lets keep the talk figurative...
 
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Link please. And how did you manage to get the servicablity of IAF and PAF?...Even I who has good contacts in IAF cant do so. And I don't think PAF will be unprofessional too.
Here you go:
Indian missle failures. Program Scrapped! RUPEE NEWS: Recording History, Narrating Archives, Strategic Intellibrief Analysis: Noticias de Rupia | Nouvelles de Roupie | Rupiennachrichten | ??????? ????? | ???? | Rupi Nyheter |

Well if you have guud contacts within the IAF doesn't necessarily mean that you have access to all the info, moreover, i don't think these kinds of ratios can be viewed publicly.

Ratios and comparisons which are done officially are classified as Secret atleast in our armed forces, but i m not sure about you.

P.S. i also have 'guud' contacts within the Pakistani military:yahoo:
 
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as far as going by logic is concerned there is no way that a technologically deprived PAF can match the IAF which has all the money and international access to the technology of the morrow....
the only supplier to the PAf are the chinese...their planes are combat tested only in Africa...and are direct copies of other western/russian/israeli planes...
a)in terms of numerical superiority...PAF is outmatched...
b)in terms of technological superiority...PAF is out matched...from the Mig-21 Bison...to the mig-29...the Mrage-2000..the Su-30MKI... the MRCA winner...and to the Lakshya....there is very little you can counter with
c)in terms of serviceability...the americans have given you a hard time with the spares for f-16s havent they?and somebody wrote that "pakistan doesnt upgrade the old planes...but dumps them altogether..."the 'ROSE' upgrade for the old mirages is happening..
so there is not much to discuss here...

all of the pints that you have higligheted have been amply killed in the previous posts, they have been talking with facts and figures and the quotes that have been uttered by you own officials, politicians and leaders, nothing is 'made up'.

Why don't you bring up something similar, which has been said from our mouth, perhaps it would be more credible then.

you say that your pilots scared the indian planes who strayed into your airspace...why dint your pilots help your army when they were getting precision-pounded in kargil?
lets keep the talk figurative...

Why didn't our pilots helped our Army in Kargil, guud question, this topic has been amply taken to task in a thread on this forum, it was an article by an ex-PAF officer, try to find it.

i don't want to waste my thread on this again.

Chill
 
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Some more links in the chain that was previuosly omitted:

Flying coffins continue to take a heavy toll
Josy Joseph in New Delhi Rediff On The NeT: Flying coffins continue to take a heavy toll

MiG-21 fighters, the backbone of the Indian Air Force and used extensively for training pilots, continue to fall off the sky in shockingly large numbers killing young pilots and exposing a national negligence which began almost two decades back. Authorities continue to dish out illogical explanations. Meanwhile the replacement of the vintage Russian aircraft and advanced jet trainer for training pilots is nowhere in sight.
Among those killed in MiG-21crashes are pilots who successfully bombed tiny bunkers atop the Kargil heights during Operation Vijay.

Senior Air Force officials said the IAF cannot afford to dump the ageing fighters and “we have to live with it.”

Of the 40 fighter squadrons of the IAF, 16 comprise MiG-21 variants. The MiG-21s are also being deployed as trainer aircraft. It is becoming clear that even the best MiG-21s which are used for training are revealing severe technical problems. The latest accident in Assam on December 16 was due to a technical snag in a trainer MiG-21.

A long history of a shocking lack of disregard for the safety of India’s finest pilots by almost every authority concerned has led to the present state, documents and information available in the public domain reveal.

The IAFis already listed among organizations with a poor flying record. But the increasing number of accidents involving trainer fighters have put the IAF in a piquant situation, as it has no replacement for them. No replacement even in the immediate future: the contract for Advanced Jet Trainers is expected to be signed in a couple of months but it will be several months from now when they are finally introduced.

Of the 28 IAF aircraft that crashed this year, 13 of them were MiG-21 variants. Last year the total crashes in IAF were 18. In fact, MiG-21s, nicknamed ‘flying coffins’ by the Delhi media, have been exhibiting a high rate of accidents for almost 10 years now. It was in 1998, that an extensive Comptroller and Auditor General of India’s audit pointed out that “the accident rate of the fighter stream, particularly MiG-21 variants continue to be high.” In the first seven years of this decade, till 1997, the IAF lost 147 aircraft, and 63 pilots.
In the last one decade, while 41 per cent of the accidents were due to human error, 44 per cent were due to technical error. Senior IAF officials attribute the high rate of technical error to technical defects arising out of deficient maintenance procedure including overhaul by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. The CAG audit, the only one of its kind ever carried out and available in the public domain, had noted that “the number of accidents due to technical defects showed an upward trend.” In 1991-92 technical defects were responsible for only 28.21 per cent of the accidents, but it shot up to 66.67 per cent in 1996-97.


While the facilities for training pilots in IAF are far from satisfactory, “the trainee pilots had to undergo training on operational jet fighters MiG-21 in the absence of advanced jet trainers,” the CAG had noted in 1998. The situation remains the same, except for the worsening of operational capability of the fighters.

The La Fontaine Committee in 1982 had discovered a noticeable correlation between the pattern of training and aircraft accidents. The committee had also pointed out that there exists a quantum jump in skill and judgement as the IAF had no suitable operational transitional trainer aircraft to fill the intervening gap before the pilots are taken to operational fighter aircraft. The government had committed in 1982 itself that it will buy Advanced Jet Trainers to replace MiG-21s and Hunter aircraft as trainers. But after almost two decades and hundreds of accidents killing several young pilots, the AJT remains a distant dream. In fact, a cruel joke.

What is now worrying the authorities is the fact that even the best of MiG-21s used for training are showing up technical problems. On December 16, a MiG-21 belonging to the Operational Flying Training Unit based at Tezpur crashed due to technical problems. The pilot escaped unhurt.

Not all pilots are so lucky. Flying Officer Pankaj Joshi returned triumphant after several successful bombing missions over the Kargil ranges. But he died recently while flying a MiG-21.


A massive contract for overhauling the ‘flying coffins’ was signed in March 1996 with the Russian authorities. This was to upgrade the MiG-21Bis variant, which is the latest entrant among the MiG-21s. After three years, two prototypes are the only ones upgraded, and the Rs 25,000 million upgradation too seems to stretch beyond any time limit. The two variants are supposed to complete the required amount of flying hours and return to India and to be indigenously copied at the HAL unit in Nashik.


The Defence Research and Development Organization’s attempt to develop a Light Combat Aircraft which could have formed the backbone of the IAF and could have replaced MiG-21s is nowhere in sight.

The government has already spent about Rs 20,000 million on the project but nothing concrete has come out of the ambitious project. The IAF has almost lost hope in getting an indigenous fighter, and government is not ready to allocate enough funds to replace the MiG-21s, whose induction began in the late 1960s.

The negligence is not total. The government has been acting on the issue: the file for acquisition of AJTs has been shuttling between the Prime Minister’s Office, the Indian Air Force Headquarters and the Defence Ministry for almost 20 years now. And at least six high power committees have investigated the accidents since the early 1980s. They were: La Fontaine Committee of 1982, IG Krishna Committee of 1987, Nehra Committee of 1989, Pratap Rao Committee of 1991, RathoreCommittee of 1994 and a High Power Committee about a couple of years back. Of these, both the IG Krishna and NehraCommittees dealt specifically with technical problems related MiG-21 variants.

But no concrete action is in the offing. Flying Coffins continue to drop off the air, killing budding pilots and ambitious patriots.
 
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To be fair Enigma. Both IAF & PAF are full of junk planes. Its a real shame on the one hand we refer to these pilots as world class YET they continue to serve their respective nations with obselete archive planes which have amazingly been kep flying for 40 years.

India still has 200+ MIG21 flying coffins.

Pakistan has nearly 200 mirage 3/5 FROM THE 60s & 70s many of these are second hand from Air forces all over the world that retired them decades ago.

The difference has i see it IAF as started to modernise quicker with SU30MKI and refullers/ Awacs ETC.

PAF will do the same but on a fraction budget it will take longer with fewer options.

As for World class Air forces and pilots " i think you need to look at" USA Europeans Japan Korea Taiwan Israel & Saudi...
 
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To be fair Enigma. Both IAF & PAF are full of junk planes. Its a real shame on the one hand we refer to these pilots as world class YET they continue to serve their respective nations with obselete archive planes which have amazingly been kep flying for 40 years.

India still has 200+ MIG21 flying coffins.

Pakistan has nearly 200 mirage 3/5 FROM THE 60s & 70s many of these are second hand from Air forces all over the world that retired them decades ago.

The difference has i see it IAF as started to modernise quicker with SU30MKI and refullers/ Awacs ETC.

PAF will do the same but on a fraction budget it will take longer with fewer options.
Unfortunately we don't have a GDP of $2.2 trillion and a GDP per capita of $36,508.70, so sorry if we can't enjoy the luxuries that you have mentioned.

As for World class Air forces and pilots " i think you need to look at" USA Europeans Japan Korea Taiwan Israel & Saudi...

And if you think that PAF pilots are not 'world class' i would suggest that you do some more reading.:coffee:
Moreover try to keep the above mentioned figures while you compare the South Asian airforces with the West!
 
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Enigma.

For me a World class Air force is one that meets the following criteria.

1. Combat fleet 60% Mature 4th Generation Fighters
2. Extensive Use of BVR force multiplers like Awacs/ refullers
3. Serious Combat experiece less than a decade ago or a massive History of major world conflict like Germany Japan.
4. Serious plans to induct near 5th Generation ie Typhoon/Rafale class fighters or indeed one of the dosen or so receipents of JSF from 2015.
5. Regular exposure to the best training/excercises with the major players ie USA & Nato or Russia.
6. Major aero/space industrial base to maintain and improve on network centric warefare and to upgrade anmd maintain current/future fighter fleets without running to client states for every spare nut and bolt.

In this Regard the following are World class Air forces

USA
ussr
China
UK
France
Japan
Israel
Germany
Sweden
2nd Tier of near World class Air forces exist because they forfill 75% OF THE ABOVE CRITERIA.

Turkey
S Korea
Taiwan
Saudi

But South Asia not at this time
 
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