Sophistication of Indian tech is now sufficient to build a Rafale

[Trawllu]

Oh and by the way...licensed production itself is going to bring thousands of jobs and save billions in forex. On top
of gaining production-engineering knowledge and having access to future techs being developed for the platform in
question.

you are saying we will have access for futuretech that will be developed for rafale in future ?

will it be free- i.e. included in this 22billions or we will have to seperate;y negotiate and pay for it in future ?


in aerospace industry there are no thousands of job for 126 planes

 

[pursuit of happiness]

The way they buggers fkd things up is more anti national. I mean a Marut built with German Kurt Tank's help and then a limping LCA - that's all we have to show for in this field? Not enough. Just not good enough.

If any parents have kids who are interested in aerospace, I will urge them to cultivate that interest and not push them into Computer Science or medical fields.


I agree with all of your points. But we should learn a thing or two from China (how to steal tech even) and make our thing. Trust you me, in times of war, the Raphales or even Sukhois will be good for a month only. After that spare parts will ground the fleet (after intense action). Foreign tech should augment our strength, not be the mainstay of a respectable military power.

---
China will face music in some yr later...
today there money is making all work
even county like russia thinkin many times before givng their gems of air figters ..
let alone westen countiress...
--
China won in short term war with idegeious tech with stealeing and copiying but lost battle in long run ..
as every tech have maturiy date and after that you need NEW..
west delved NEW tech many times
china can but question is can they sustain pace of that
as china dont ave comparable univesiry, indutry , innovative culture compare to west

 

[Trawllu]

Short ans: we don't want another elephant, but a goat can't do the job. So looking for something in between, a balance of cost and performance.

More aircraft are needed. Not light ones like LCA, but ones which can support better EW/CM, more payload, more range, better radar, better performance etc. Mki fit the bill. But heaving 126 (200) more heavy fighters costly, when a medium one can do the job. Hence the competition for medium multirole. Apart from high availability/lower maintenance, overall lower life time costs, Rafale offers certain technologies/weapons etc that were not available with Mki. Also, 50% investment in India, possibly some critical tech.

which tech / weapons not available with MKI

furthur as regards to weapons we are going to indegenise the weapons

Astra
LGB
Bombs
etc etc

 

[pursuit of happiness]

Actually Rafale can do all roles that a SU30 can do, and can do it equally good or better. Except that flankers come with additional payload and range.

---
plese comapre RCS ,, ECM , missile pack of both to name a few to get ans
one is for sneking in enemny without making nosie or less noise..Rafael..
other is to show enemy hi... i am here..lets start the firwarks ... Su30mki

 

[Trawllu]

Really? Even if that meant a gap of about 15-20 years before you actually saw a fighter emerge?


Many people here are making some very silly assumptions:

1) For $16BN (NOT $20+ BN, how many times??) India is only getting 126 fighters, absolutely nothing more
2)That India is buying from abroad means no money will be spent on India's domestic aviation industry
3) The orders for Rafale will in some way hurt the orders for the LCA


When in reality:

1) For $16 BN India will get the planes, training, spares, weapons, ToT AND $8 BN will be ploughed back into the Indian aerospace industry.
2) Not at all, aside from the $8 BN that will be coming in from Dassualt, ADA/DRDO and HAL will continue to be getting increasing funds for R&D, not to mention the increasing opening up of the industry to Indian private entities.
3) In NO WAY, this is just stupidity. The IAF will be looking to get in excess of 200 LCAs and the IN another 40-50.


The fact of the matter is even for $20 BN USD India couldn't make a plane up to the Rafale's standards before 2030 and Pakistan couldn't do so for at least 3 decades (if it went alone). So does that mean you let your military standstill as its opponents (China) grow stronger and stronger? Let's get one thing clear- the Rafale is going to meet a very specific need in the IAF's fleet, it is not coming as a "Gucci" item, it isn't just some vanity purchase but born out of a tangible threat perception.

the dealdoes not include spares neither weapons

dont blufff

 

[pursuit of happiness]

Chinese are building their own. So I doubt they will beat Indian programs in sophistication and capabilities. (any time soon).

Looks like some baboos are getting huge commission in the deal.


And TOT is for Tots (kids).

No country will ever give you or I, their sophisticated tech.

--
wait for 10 yr
you will surely see chinese bet on wrong strategy....

India needs to ditch both Rafale and pak-fa. It will save you about $40 Billion. Rope in foreign partners to develop LCA and AMCA jointly. India has the smarts to make it happen while keeping the R&D for future use. This is a bold step for which the biggest resistance will come from IAF which frankly and seriously needs to ground those widow making Migs and put them out of service.

Reduced numbers of fighter squadrons is a reality IAF brass needs to make peace with, its a chronic problem which is here to stay for the next decade. Even if India signs Rafale deal in 015, those jets won't complete delivery till 2020-21.

The integration of the jet into operations is a whole different game. Unlike your 50cc scooter, a Rafale would have to be adopted, integrated, tested and tested again, pilots and ground staff would have to be re trained, new gear would come and ultimately new tactics would have to be developed to use the jet for the reason it was bought for.

For a Pro organization like IAF it may not be an unchartered territory but throw in the Tejas, FGFA, Mirage H, Fulcrum SMT, Sukhoi upgrade, C-130s, C-17s and possibly Chinooks and Apache's in the same regime and my opinion becomes visible.

--
Rafel and pak fa
both diffren figter role..
Rafael for now and onwards
Pak faw -- near future..
--
No of figters and squd
yes .. i think IAF had sanction 44 sqd but now have 33 or less and will not touch 44
so they went for mulirole figter.. whcih can work for atleast 2 role which can compensate the loss of sqd in number but stil retain qualittive edge
--
Integration
one of imp slection paramet wodul be .. integration ..
as IAF alwys have thump up for mirage even upgarded them ..
so integration of frech platform is not big issue. .
if we coudl ahve gone with USA then it could be ..
---
They taking best of each class
you gave list already..
--
today india dont have project managht skill , industry and govt maturiy and system , ecology to support these project..
TOT of rafel wil help use to grow and gain that

 

[acetophenol]

If you are making maruti.

Then you go buy 5 BMWs.

This will not help maruti. It will remain basic basic basic car, never to become BMW ever.

Janab,the idea is not just to buy 5 BMWs,its to learn how to build them so that ultimately every nut and bolt for that BMW is made in the country. That infra,technologies and experience will be used to Mercs and Lambhos instead of Marutis.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

50% back is huge exaggeration bhai. HuuuuuuugeA!.

--
deal is on paper .. and part of RFQ...

The MKI is the top-end of the IAF's fleet, it is just not feasible to have an additional 200 (how many Rafales will be ordered) of them in lieu of the Rafale. Many don't seem to understand that the MKI is probably second only to the F-22 to maintain and fly- the cost per flight hour is ENORMOUS (in excess of $25,000 IIRC) whilst the Rafale is cheaper to both fly and maintain as a result of the French/Western design ethos.

The MKI is a great plane but it needs an able sidekick and the Rafale fits the bill and much more.


Not to mention the need to get away from as much Russian kit as possible, their after sales performance has been abysmal across the board.

--
in simple terms.. you only take out SUV- gas guzzlers when you need absolute in off road terrain ..
rest work can be done by Porshe / Audi /Merc

 

[SarthakGanguly]

---
China will face music in some yr later...
today there money is making all work
even county like russia thinkin many times before givng their gems of air figters ..
let alone westen countiress...
--
China won in short term war with idegeious tech with stealeing and copiying but lost battle in long run ..
as every tech have maturiy date and after that you need NEW..
west delved NEW tech many times
china can but question is can they sustain pace of that
as china dont ave comparable univesiry, indutry , innovative culture compare to west

I agree that Chinese 'invention' is ... well you know, absent. But industry they have ample. Their copying machines are working full steam to churn out more copies much quicker than their counterparts in the West. And then you have incremental improvement. Nothing ground breaking, but enough to keep the ball rolling. For example you reverse engineer a rocket. Then you make 10 similar ones. Then you add another ballast tank and adjust a few things and you (may) get a more advanced version. Certainly you won't get the path breaking new tech this way, but it works and mass manufacturing helps.

Quantity has a quality of its own. Remember Germany vs Soviet Russia?

 

[Koovie]

you are saying we will have access for futuretech that will be developed for rafale in future ?

will it be free- i.e. included in this 22billions or we will have to seperate;y negotiate and pay for it in future ?


in aerospace industry there are no thousands of job for 126 planes

Yes, there are actually that many potential jobs... it will not only require a couple of hundred guys putting the planes together, you obviously forgot to add the workers in the countless supply industries, infrastructure, service sector etc etc etc

So yes, it would create thousands of jobs.

 

[SrNair]

LCA & Rafale are not comparable - you are right

IAF needs midclass fighters having twin engines - you are wrong the MMRCA requirements and tenders looked for single engine plane only - IAF wanted Mirage 2000 in 2001 -

the rafale is redundant - it can be replaced by combinaiton of Su 30 + LCA

the Rafale deal was estimated at less than 10 billion in 20010 with 50% offsets

now it is estimated at more than 22Billion with 50% offset - are we really getting anything in offset ?
all the 50% offsets are accounted for price escalation - where is the real benefit ?




Sir can you elaborate how LCA is capable enough in NE theatre ?

Su 30MKI is a heavy class fighter and have much operational expensive .That cant ram in to enemy airspace
without any SEAD operation.Not suitable for deep enemy strike.Its RCS is an another issue.LCA MK1 is not the real fighter that IAF wanted .That is MK2.And it is still development. Now LCA dont have even half the capability of Rafale and its operational range is severly limited.So forget about SEAD operation.
And relying on Su 30 solely will absurd .



Check the capabilities of LCA and Rafale you will get what I meant.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

you my brother remind me of

the guy who believes that during Christmas

The store says "buy one get one free"

or

The store says "Everything 50% off"

Get this "free" and that "free".

hahah

--
good example..
but french super marketert is not like that ..
you need BANIA mind for french busineman
--
IAF men can/ may asked this to ferech

I agree that Chinese 'invention' is ... well you know, absent. But industry they have ample. Their copying machines are working full steam to churn out more copies much quicker than their counterparts in the West. And then you have incremental improvement. Nothing ground breaking, but enough to keep the ball rolling. For example you reverse engineer a rocket. Then you make 10 similar ones. Then you add another ballast tank and adjust a few things and you (may) get a more advanced version. Certainly you won't get the path breaking new tech this way, but it works and mass manufacturing helps.

Quantity has a quality of its own. Remember Germany vs Soviet Russia?

--
Who won..Germany or Soviet Russia?
which car you want.. german or Soviet ?

 

[MilSpec]

There's still a lot of work needed, LCA was a good aircraft with a fair bit of potential, the imports, delays and mismanagement are killing it in my opinion, and one too many foreign components. As a Pakistani I can honestly say, a capable LCA fielded in numbers would be a more worrisome development than imports of Rafale or other foreign aircraft.

LCA Mk2 Is for the same purpose, to hopefully deploy in large nubers, the only problem being technology is moving faster, and new threats emanating from chinese will need some deploy able safeties, Pakfa and AMCA were conceived as the solutions for the scenario. Rafale's were to be a transitional high technology platform which could augment MKI and introduce a unknown variable in the equation due to is high speed maneuverability, Omni role capabilities, integrated warfare suite, and off the shelf net centric ready system with the legendary french reliability.
The ToT project would give India access to Most of the build documentation for most of the subsystems along with metallurgical technology data for the first time, except the Engines and radar, These are the two things that India needs to push to develop by itself.

The news in the realm of media, is always around 2-3 years old, and the DRDO has been making some strides in both the systems and eventually LCA Mk2 and it's follow on variants will be the workhorse for IAF, replacing or augmenting roles of Mig21 Bisons, Mig27, and some of strike package roles. Mostly It will stay an area defense fighter.

The project was highly mis managed, and it will take some time to salvage the project in time, unfortunately the way things are handled sometimes suspect some vested interests might have some stake in ensuring LCA MK2 doesn't stick to it's timeline. but then again it might be my frustrations speaking.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

I agree that Chinese 'invention' is ... well you know, absent. But industry they have ample. Their copying machines are working full steam to churn out more copies much quicker than their counterparts in the West. And then you have incremental improvement. Nothing ground breaking, but enough to keep the ball rolling. For example you reverse engineer a rocket. Then you make 10 similar ones. Then you add another ballast tank and adjust a few things and you (may) get a more advanced version. Certainly you won't get the path breaking new tech this way, but it works and mass manufacturing helps.

Quantity has a quality of its own. Remember Germany vs Soviet Russia?

--
Remember old golden egg story ...
man killed hen for golden egg at once...but lost it for long term
china gained in short term by killing hen / copying -stealing tech but lost for long term

What's even more amusing is to see other armchair generals to show up and seemingly defy the infallible logic provided by others in a very non-constructive way.

Let me just say, if we in Pakistan had 20 bill to burn on more fighters, and had a dire specific requirement, I would opt to spend that money on the JF-17, if the JF-17 due to design limitations could not fulfil that role, I'd like to see it go to another project maximum Pakistani input, that incorporates our industry as much as possible, promoting self sufficiency.



Your comments are appreciated, God Bless you.

---
how capable pak aerospace industry..?
how capable pak heavy industry ?
how canpable techinal softwarea dn ahrdwaere human resource pak have ?
--
you can save billion if you allow/ making commercial vehicle to be made and export form pak .. did they?nissan, totoya, suzuki ?
do these guys make engine in pak?
let me know this

 

[SrNair]

The way they buggers fkd things up is more anti national. I mean a Marut built with German Kurt Tank's help and then a limping LCA - that's all we have to show for in this field? Not enough. Just not good enough.

If any parents have kids who are interested in aerospace, I will urge them to cultivate that interest and not push them into Computer Science or medical fields.


I agree with all of your points. But we should learn a thing or two from China (how to steal tech even) and make our thing. Trust you me, in times of war, the Raphales or even Sukhois will be good for a month only. After that spare parts will ground the fleet (after intense action). Foreign tech should augment our strength, not be the mainstay of a respectable military power.

Then you should steal foreigners tech.Did you actually overcGovt can do that?It will be a foreign policy disaster.
We dont know the real capabilities of Chinese fighters.
Then again Chinese actual investment in military is completely opaque.
Almost nearer to the 250 billion $.It will increase in future.
But still they cant field a good tech that on par with west.
Can we spend our money like that? Forget about outcome.
About a full a scale war.The scenario that you mentioned will only happen when there is a war with China.
Because after we finished our modernization we will have large number of squadrons.Attacking Pakistan with that perhaps be an overkill.
Again that is just a possibility.