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Some thoughts about China's nuclear expansion

Shall I rephrase so you get the picture. If NFU diplomacy fails, China will initiate 1st strike when she has enough confidence that the strikes are unstoppable while at the same time possess capability to neutralize all incoming threats, including from whatever US military capability that might have survived the 1st strike. After US cities and much of population gone, whatever US military left have already lost their supply chain to stop a ground invasion, not to mention all their families have gone.
Ok, show me the 50,000 nukes and I'll believe you.

Can't?

Then stop your fantasy.

I'm not sure how people in this day and age don't know that the age of assured destruction ended with the SALT treaty.

Assured destruction wasn't some fantasy concept like you seem to dream of.

It requires 30,000+ nukes for counter-force and 10,000+ nukes for counter-value.
 
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Ok, show me the 50,000 nukes and I'll believe you.

Can't?

Then stop your fantasy.
You call sub-kiloton tactical warheads "nukes"? OK, no matter how tiny yield they could be, they are indeed. China should've made some, or perhaps had done already, in great numbers as seen in the "never reported" lot.

Let's look at the ones US happily advertise, even back in 1990 there were close to 300 city busters to wipe out US cities, see that chart what each one of them can do? Death & injuries total 7.88 million at time blast just in New York, how many Americans left to withstand fallout casualties? That's just 3.3 megaton, wanna see picture for the trending 5 megaton model? Since 1990 China's economic output grew 50 times, industrial capacity grew 30 times, if 300 city busters aren't enough for your fantasy then how many more of these US need now for China to produce?

Nukemap.jpg
 
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Anyone that thinks 300-1000 nukes provide anything more than a political deterrent is kidding themselves.

The United States thought that they needed at least 40,000 nukes to even achieve MAD parity with the Soviet Union and the Soviet Union thought they needed at least 50,000 nukes to even achieve MAD parity with the United States.

Do yourself a favor and plot out the entire nuclear arsenal that you think a country has on nukemap and see how few things you can actually destroy.

China's 300-1000 nukes was obviously sized to be a political deterrent to Soviet first strike and nothing more.

China's primary deterrence against U.S. first strike is Russia.

If/When the U.S. successfully color revolutions first Belarus and then Russia (and possibly Iran), that deterrence is gone and the U.S. will obviously launch a first strike on China as soon as possible.

This is why it's obvious that all sides are bluffing when they talk about a "great power war".

First, there isn't anywhere near enough stockpiled and/or production capacity for any of the advanced weapons that any major power has to last for more than a few weeks or months at most of war.

Second, there isn't sufficient general population bunker capacity to even save the cream of the crop top 10% of societies that will be difficult to replace afterwards.

Add that to the fact that the United States has cities that are (un)planned to be so spread out and with so many redundant road transport links that they are hilariously resilient to any sort of bombardment.

One should also acknowledge that it takes at least 30% population destruction before the will of a population breaks through kinetic conflict.

I'm literally saying that all sides are bluffing since none of the sides have jack squat to fight a great power war at the moment or in the near future.

Please get allocated some reading comprehension.
 
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none of the sides have jack squat to fight a great power war
Yes I heard you saying that. But "none"? Speak for yourself please, don't speak for China.

Do use some comprehension, I said China is rebuilding the first strike exclusive force (using "old fashion" silo-based ICBM, with new techs like FOBS, HGV) and of course will use it when the situation calls for it. No one is stupid enough to ask for MAD, sane person asks for unilateral destruction of the other side, when time is right.
 
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Yes I heard you saying that, but speak for yourself please, don't speak for China.

Do use some comprehension, I said China is rebuilding the first strike exclusive force (using silo-based ICBM, with ABM penetration techs like FOBS, HGV) and of course will use it when the situation calls for it. No one is stupid enough to ask for MAD, sane person asks for unilateral destruction of the other side, when time is right.
Explain to me how China plans to defend the most densely packed cities in the world and the least nuclear hardened ground force of the three great nuclear powers.

China is at the most disadvantaged if you are talking about force loss in a nuclear conflict.

Russia is the second most disadvantaged, but is capable of limited counterforce.

United States will not take significant damage to either military or civilian fractions from anything less than 50,000 nukes.

That you cannot see that you dreams are fantasies is frankly hilarious.

Does no one on this forum know anything about nuclear strategy and/or wargaming nuclear war?
 
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United States will not take significant damage to either military or civilian fractions from anything less than 50,000 nukes.
Stop being delusional. China's current arsenal is enough to end America's existence, the expanded arsenal is to stalemate the US from escalating to the nuclear level. All it needs to do is match the US one, whether the US arsenal is 30, 300, 3000, or 30000 bombs.
 
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Stop being delusional. China's current arsenal is enough to end America's existence, the expanded arsenal is to stalemate the US from escalating to the nuclear level. All it needs to do is match the US one, whether the US arsenal is 30, 300, 3000, or 30000 bombs.
The U.S.'s current arsenal is simply a deterrence level arsenal, not meant to fight a nuclear war with.

You guys are simply hysterical and don't know how bluffs work.
 
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Why not add one more zero to it while you still can? Who taught that?
United States will not take significant damage to either military or civilian fractions from anything less than 50,000 nukes.
Your W54 warhead yield can be as low as 10 ton, I agree even if you self-detonate 50000 of these toys most of you can still live happily ever after in La La Land, how about replace that with a PLA 3.3 megaton warhead that brings 7.08 million casualties momentarily to New York alone? Please tell me how many Americans are there to be wiped out? I guess PLA need your input to calculate how many 3.3 megaton warheads are needed.

Or perhaps the new 5 megaton is more efficient.

Nukemap 500.jpg

Explain to me how China plans to defend the most densely packed cities in the world and the least nuclear hardened ground force of the three great nuclear powers.
Perhaps by taking out US cities, as well as military targets?
 
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Why not add one more zero to it while you still can? Who taught that?

Your W54 warhead yield can be as low as 10 ton, I agree even if you self-detonate 50000 of these toys most of you can still live happily ever after in La La Land, how about replace that with a PLA 3.3 megaton warhead that brings 7.08 million casualties momentarily to New York alone? Please tell me how many Americans are there to be wiped out, I guess PLA need your input to calculate how many warheads are needed.

Perhaps by taking out US cities, as well as military targets?
The reason why any realistic nuclear arsenal has yields you don't seem to like is due to the fact that most of the nukes used will have to be tactical because of the inverse square law.

Something minor like 5 psi does nothing against properly designed APCs/IFVs/Tanks

The kill radius of nukes is so small against any significant military target that the only rational way to employ nukes is to use ground burst tactical nukes.

The very fact that you think that bigger nukes are better against military targets shows how glaringly little you know about this subject.
 
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The very fact that you think that bigger nukes are better against military targets shows how glaringly little you know about this subject.
Who think bigger nukes are better? I didn't say that, in fact China has been ramping up smaller/MIRV nukes for a fast expanding fleet of DF-31/41 and 094 and such during the past two decades, why would PLA make so many small nukes so if they don't like it? In fact it's you the Americans openly say China back in 1990 already had a few hundred high-yield bombs, the same story continue till even nowadays, almost the same script. These large bombs are city busters more than enough to wipe out all American cities, I never said China doesn't do other things, did I?

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You still haven't figured out why I made sure to give the figure of 50,000 nukes.....

After this whole thread of me spoon-feeding you......

At least make an effort when trolling.

Either you know all along that your posts are pure non-sense, or you are literally just that dense.
 
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You still haven't figured out why I made sure to give the figure of 50,000 nukes.....
Please do enlighten the forum here openly. I have shown you that even based on American old story China can annihilate US cities and population since decades ago. Can you show us how you arrive at your figure?
 
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Are you a professional writer man? Cuz I got to say, you got some chops.
I usually don't read very long posts but your comment prompted me to it. However, frankly I am a bit disappointed. the post is largely filled with materials mostly from somewhere on Internet and touted by typical armchair strategists. The statement like this
The problem of trade sanctions can be resolved by developing China's interbank payment system CIPS and its central bank digital currency.
almost made me aghast.
 
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The recent news about China's nuclear advancements has encouraged me to collect some thoughts on these developments and put them into a broader strategic framework. I think many of us here felt that this expansion was long overdue, but I didn't appreciate just how much it would improve China's overall position until I thought more deeply about the matter.

First, I'd like to stress that this buildup is very real. Any talk about "wind farms" (other than East Wind farms) or "the Pentagon is just lying to fundraise" and you can see yourself out of my thread. That's useful disinformation to spread around social media, but it has no place in a serious analysis. To anyone who thinks otherwise, I can only recommend that you follow the ethos of the successful drug dealer: never get high on your own supply.

With that out of the way, I'd like to examine the first and most obvious strategic implication: The impossibility of a large American first strike that relies on missile defense to neutralize the surviving remnants launched in retaliation. Having three large fields of missile silos ready to launch at a moment's notice and completing the necessary early warning systems - primarily ground-based radars and infra-red monitoring satellites - means that any first strike won't have the chance to land before China launches a retaliation so obliterating that it deletes the US from existence. If we are thinking about the escalation ladder in a conflict, China has just matched the US at the highest rung of that ladder and removed any option America had of climbing to that rung.

This in and of itself is a very salutary development; by expanding and improving its arsenal, China has stopped the US from posing an existential threat to it. But there are far subtler benefits to be had than just securing China's survival - as I just mentioned, by filling the gap at the highest rung of the escalation ladder, China has removed from the US the option of climbing to that rung. Let's extend that idea and fill the gaps China has in its escalation ladder from the top down...

While the ICBM silos and Mach 20+ hypersonic glide vehicle tests are well-attested, what follows is mostly my own speculation (although still backed by evidence). Suppose China doesn't just improve its strategic arsenal, but expands and improves its tactical nuclear weapons as well. There have been some indications that it's doing this already - namely the dual nuclear/conventional precision strike role for the DF-26 IRBM. This would match the US's tactical nuclear weapons rung of the escalation ladder, which it would be tempted to escalate to if it's losing a conventional conflict. Having a robust tactical nuclear weapons arsenal gives symmetric responses to China should the US escalate to that level, which precisely ensures that it won't.

An important principle to note here is that freezing the US out from escalation to a certain level on the ladder actually opens up coercive options for China at the levels below it. Having a robust, numerous, and diverse nuclear arsenal allows China freedom of action at the conventional level of conflict, free from the fear that the US might escalate to a nuclear level where China would have no response. This technological advancement would even allow China to deter purely conventional attacks on its homeland (for example, bombardment of its military-industrial infrastructure) by threatening asymmetric tactical nuclear strikes on similar US targets. For example, a very accurate HGV armed with a one kiloton nuclear device (very small by nuclear weapons' standards) fired at a US shipyard following a US attack on a Chinese shipyard would destroy the US shipyard without annihilating the city it's in. I foresee a much expanded role for such tactical nuclear warfighting in Chinese military doctrine in the decades to come.

Now, I imagine that at least some readers would have their hackles raised by this. A (albeit small) nuclear first strike on the US homeland? My response to this objection is that we ought not to be too fixated on the physics of the weapons involved and instead look at the more pertinent factor: the scale of devastation. A one kiloton detonation is around the scale of the Beirut Explosion; do you know how many people died in the Beirut Explosion? 218. By contrast, consider how many people would die in a conventional attack that destroyed the Three Gorges Dam. The relevant principle that should guide China's decision on striking the continental US is a simple one: equality of devastation. If the US wants its homeland untouched, what it must do is very simple - extend China the same courtesy.

While operationally extremely provocative, such a doctrine is (perhaps paradoxically) strategically reactive.

Another mission to consider for the ostensible tac-nuke armed HGV (and future Chinese systems like the H-20 stealth bomber) is strikes against the US's missile defense infrastructure. It's often noted that the test record of missile defense systems against ICBMs is spotty at best and that a sophisticated adversary could easily overcome it. Be that as it may, US decisionmakers believe that their missile defense works and so might contemplate escalation based on the false assumption that they are protected from retaliation. That delusion is a dangerous one for them to entertain, hence they should be promptly disabused of it in a serious crisis.

What would the cumulative effect of China closing the gaps in its escalation ladder from the top down as I've outlined be? First, as I've already mentioned, greatly expanded freedom of action at the conventional level. Second, the psychological impact of such a stark change in the balance of power on US allies will be wrenching. The decision a country like Japan would make in joining the US in a conflict (or even maintaining a formal alliance) depends ultimately on considerations of its own survival - nobody is going to tag along with the US on a suicide mission. A US ally like Japan understands that if the US can't escalate to the nuclear level to protect it, China could maul it solely with conventional weapons and the US would have no response. Countries throughout the western Pacific would start to see a security relationship with the US as an ever increasing liability, and it would not escape their notice that the US can ultimately leave the region while they can't. Third, China's conventional buildup has reached such a point that the US is seriously contemplating losing a conflict. What usually happened historically when a state perceived its position so dramatically weakening was it launched a war out of desperation and "now or never" thinking. An expanded Chinese nuclear arsenal and the credible threat of its use prevents the US from launching such a war.

Having said this, I don't believe that a war with Taiwan is imminent or even likely in the next decade or two. The primary reason is that while a nuclear expansion solves the problems of vertical escalation China has, it doesn't address the problems of horizontal escalation. The US has options beyond direct military attacks against China - for instance, it can blockade Chinese shipping or disconnect China from the dollar trading system. These problems require different (and much slower) solutions that I'll touch on here. China can neutralize the threat of blockades by expanding the PLAN (most crucially, the nuclear attack submarine fleet) and basing it in friendly countries along its sea lanes. I have in mind specifically Cambodia and Pakistan, and perhaps others like Myanmar, Iran, and Syria. The problem of trade sanctions can be resolved by developing China's interbank payment system CIPS and its central bank digital currency. More importantly, strategies like dual circulation would reduce and eventually eliminate China's vulnerability to foreign technology, and carbon neutrality would obviate the need for hydrocarbon imports.

Overall, a very significant development that augurs greater things to come.
I believe your analysis misses some very important points, particularly some historical points. The nuclear strategy held by China has long been for limited deterrence. A limited capability of second strike should be sufficient to deter any nuclear aggression. However, an expanded Chinese nuclear arsenal, particular to the level that is comparable to the US, is NOT to prevent the US from launching nuclear wars. It is to provide nuclear umbrella for current and future allies (keep in mind that US nuclear arsenal is NOT just for its own defense). It is the first step to build an empire.

US didn't launch nuclear war with China when China didn't have any and it hasn't even had any direct conflict with China since the Korea war and that wasn't even on China soil. Other than keeping up in military technologies, I don't see how building up nuclear arsenals would change anything directly with the US, other than, of course, inducing a cold war with it.

By the way, the problem with US trade sanction has little to do with the US interbank payment system. It has everything to do with the fact that your trading partners want US dollars. If he is happy with China RMB, the whole US interbank payment system is completely out of the picture.
 
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Anyone notice how casually US commentators or strategists say the US will use nukes on whoever sinks an aircraft carrier? Such is their arrogance and disdain for other people. They say this secure in the knowledge that they possess overwhelming nuclear advantage.
Notice how similar is the history of all the Anglo nations vis-a-vis the natives whom they came in contact with? It is almost a carbon copy of each other... Take their land, kill their men, rape their females, belittle their culture, destroy their religion, change their language. They are very happy to kill off the natives through guns or missionary schools because they feel killing natives in an attempt to make natives a poor copy of Anglos is saving them .
This same missionary mentality couched in diplomatic finesse is seen today... how they are intent on " saving " countries like China, Iran, Russia, NK by destroying them even though they don't want to be " saved" . This mentality is deeply embedded in the 5 eyes and they will happily nuke China if they think they can prevail in an exchange.
For this reason China needs an open and unambiguous superiority in quantity, quality and delivery system of nukes to keep any fight to conventional means only. Since not just the Anglos but even NATO may be recruited in an all out war, everyone should have a quota of nukes assigned to them. This may come to 10k nukes or more.
Like the poster says, it will have the additional salutary effect of dissuading all but the most committed sidekicks from picking a side in an actual hot war( eg Australia, UK)
 
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